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> Well, I'm not sure I'd come back, actually I’m at Amazon right now (Ads) and honestly this makes me really sad. It feels like I’m not allowed to be proud of

> Well, I'm not sure I'd come back, actually I’m at Amazon right now (Ads) and honestly this makes me really sad. It feels like I’m not allowed to be proud of where I work.

Pfhreak 7y ago
Hey, you are totally allowed! You and I probably value things differently! I'm a parent now, my values have shifted over time, and I got really burned out trying to improve things over there. I didn't like that once I became a manager I was pressured to identify and remove (rather than train/help) my people who weren't top tier. Those could have been things local to my org. If you are happy, be proud of what you are doing. Like I said, I think it was a really valuable 6 years. I'm glad I was there, I learned a ton, met awesome engineers.
ahelwer 7y ago
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you're working in ads you are working to surveil & modify the behavior of your fellow humans against their consent. Make your own judgement about whether you should be proud of that.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Supermancho 7y ago
  > against their consent I have worked in ads for over 15 years. I certainly don't believe it's any more "against your consent" than stores coloring their walls to modify behavior or placing goods in a more visible location to sell more, or that fluffy animals are perceived as cute. The work is good and I have never been happier than when I work in adtech.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    It's a bit more invasive than "coloring the walls", right?
    - Supermancho 7y ago
      Is it? Superstore chain (let's say Walmart's) cost/benefit margins of coloring the walls is orders of magnitude larger day to day, than ad revenue budgets of most companies year over year. People like to be outraged about the most fringe issues, because they feel like it's championing the good fight. Advertising is the least of life's problems (local or at large). It's fucking 2020, can we get Pepsi and Coke in the same restaurant yet? That's an advertising issue that I wish someone would address.
      - luckylion 7y ago
        That's because Walmart is gigantic, not because blue vs green walls make such an enormous difference. It's the difference between having some vapid happy tunes playing in the super market and them analyzing your profile and previous purchases to bombard you with customized messages to make you feel bad because you'll buy more. The level of invasiveness is very different, and you need thorough tracking and denial of privacy for one but not the other.
Klonoar 7y ago
You're certainly allowed to be proud... but others don't have to respect your career choices (and many won't, which is fine). Personally speaking, I've had Amazon try to pull me a few times and I just stopped responding to their emails. It's a large company and I can agree that there's leagues of separation between, say, AWS and warehouse operations... but I also just don't care, I can't co-sign the kind of stuff that you hear about (and has been verified by people coming forward). The tech industry is large enough that if you're good enough to work at Amazon, you probably have options. My 2 cents, I guess.
- lowiqengineer 7y ago
  I've been rejected at Google and Facebook and most of HN doesn't think my total compensation is all that impressive, so, I probably don't have many options to be real with you.
  - SamBam 7y ago
    > The tech industry is large enough that if you're good enough to work at Amazon, you probably have options. > I've been rejected at Google and Facebook These two statements are not contradicting each other...
    - lowiqengineer 7y ago
      Perhaps, but my goal is to make ~$250k a year as fast as possible. To do so at my current company would take at least 3 years and 2 promotions, whereas even James Damore was making $400k+ 4 years into his tenure. I can't get offers at trading firms, so I'm kinda SOL overall.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - shitlord 7y ago
        The easiest path to $250k is to go to Oracle. The next easiest path is to go to a unicorn. If you can reach the SDE2-equivalent, you'll be earning over 250k.
stevejb 7y ago
Nobody but yourself has to give you permission for this. It's an honest living. Lots of people who would give you shit about this are in the VC-funded "Uber eats for dog treats" world and may have an over-inflated sense of the social value their jobs are supposedly creating.
- lowiqengineer 7y ago
  That's fair. I think what I work on is infinitely more important even though it's a piece of a larger puzzle given how rapidly we're adding to the bottom line (just look at the last earnings call - ). But those are the people that are still negotiating compensation packages of hundreds of thousands more than me, and seem to get everything through life, from Harker to Stanford to Google/Stripe to YC W20, etc. I'd rather be like them than be considered a "blue collar engineer" as I currently am considered by my peers.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - amf12 7y ago
    > than be considered a "blue collar engineer" as I currently am considered by my peers. I might be completely wrong about this, but I feel you have low-self esteem and you are tying your sense of self-worth to where you work. Whenever I have heard something negative about Amazon is that they overwork people and there is no work life balance. But almost all of them have said it was worth it in terms of growing and learning. If you feel that what you are working on has enough impact, and you are learning a lot. Put your head down, fuck what others think of Amazon, and grow as an engineer. After that a lot more opportunities might open for you.
    - lowiqengineer 7y ago
      My WLB is good to great, and is for everyone in my greater organization. My problem is that I don’t get off sites to Cabo or free massages.
adreamingsoul 7y ago
I encourage you to speak with a therapist about how you feel. Money is not going to make you happy or proud, comparing yourself to others is a zero-sum game, and living to work comes at a cost. Seriously, find and talk with a professional. How you are feeling now is probably not going to change even if you achieved everything you want.
dkersten 7y ago
I don’t understand why anybody, anywhere, would be proud of where they work. Being proud of your work (what you do/accomplish or the products you put out) sure, but why would I ever be proud of working for any particular company (certainly a for profit. Using amazon as an example, you can be proud of the work you do but why would you be proud that you’re helping make bezos richer?)
- dyadic 7y ago
  You find one that aligns with your own personal goals and ethics. I found one, and working with other people there feels like a multiplier on the change I want to see in the world. Generally they'll be quite small and niche but they do exist.

> Well, I'm not sure I'd come back, actually I’m at Amazon right now (Ads) and honestly this makes me really sad. It feels like I’m not allowed to be proud of where I work.

Pfhreak 7y ago

Hey, you are totally allowed! You and I probably value things differently! I'm a parent now, my values have shifted over time, and I got really burned out trying to improve things over there. I didn't like that once I became a manager I was pressured to identify and remove (rather than train/help) my people who weren't top tier. Those could have been things local to my org. If you are happy, be proud of what you are doing. Like I said, I think it was a really valuable 6 years. I'm glad I was there, I learned a ton, met awesome engineers.

ahelwer 7y ago

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you're working in ads you are working to surveil & modify the behavior of your fellow humans against their consent. Make your own judgement about whether you should be proud of that.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Supermancho 7y ago
> against their consent I have worked in ads for over 15 years. I certainly don't believe it's any more "against your consent" than stores coloring their walls to modify behavior or placing goods in a more visible location to sell more, or that fluffy animals are perceived as cute. The work is good and I have never been happier than when I work in adtech.
- luckylion 7y ago
  It's a bit more invasive than "coloring the walls", right?
  - Supermancho 7y ago
    Is it? Superstore chain (let's say Walmart's) cost/benefit margins of coloring the walls is orders of magnitude larger day to day, than ad revenue budgets of most companies year over year. People like to be outraged about the most fringe issues, because they feel like it's championing the good fight. Advertising is the least of life's problems (local or at large). It's fucking 2020, can we get Pepsi and Coke in the same restaurant yet? That's an advertising issue that I wish someone would address.
    - luckylion 7y ago
      That's because Walmart is gigantic, not because blue vs green walls make such an enormous difference. It's the difference between having some vapid happy tunes playing in the super market and them analyzing your profile and previous purchases to bombard you with customized messages to make you feel bad because you'll buy more. The level of invasiveness is very different, and you need thorough tracking and denial of privacy for one but not the other.

Klonoar 7y ago

You're certainly allowed to be proud... but others don't have to respect your career choices (and many won't, which is fine). Personally speaking, I've had Amazon try to pull me a few times and I just stopped responding to their emails. It's a large company and I can agree that there's leagues of separation between, say, AWS and warehouse operations... but I also just don't care, I can't co-sign the kind of stuff that you hear about (and has been verified by people coming forward). The tech industry is large enough that if you're good enough to work at Amazon, you probably have options. My 2 cents, I guess.

lowiqengineer 7y ago
I've been rejected at Google and Facebook and most of HN doesn't think my total compensation is all that impressive, so, I probably don't have many options to be real with you.
- SamBam 7y ago
  > The tech industry is large enough that if you're good enough to work at Amazon, you probably have options. > I've been rejected at Google and Facebook These two statements are not contradicting each other...
  - lowiqengineer 7y ago
    Perhaps, but my goal is to make ~$250k a year as fast as possible. To do so at my current company would take at least 3 years and 2 promotions, whereas even James Damore was making $400k+ 4 years into his tenure. I can't get offers at trading firms, so I'm kinda SOL overall.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - shitlord 7y ago
      The easiest path to $250k is to go to Oracle. The next easiest path is to go to a unicorn. If you can reach the SDE2-equivalent, you'll be earning over 250k.

stevejb 7y ago

Nobody but yourself has to give you permission for this. It's an honest living. Lots of people who would give you shit about this are in the VC-funded "Uber eats for dog treats" world and may have an over-inflated sense of the social value their jobs are supposedly creating.

lowiqengineer 7y ago
That's fair. I think what I work on is infinitely more important even though it's a piece of a larger puzzle given how rapidly we're adding to the bottom line (just look at the last earnings call - ). But those are the people that are still negotiating compensation packages of hundreds of thousands more than me, and seem to get everything through life, from Harker to Stanford to Google/Stripe to YC W20, etc. I'd rather be like them than be considered a "blue collar engineer" as I currently am considered by my peers.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- amf12 7y ago
  > than be considered a "blue collar engineer" as I currently am considered by my peers. I might be completely wrong about this, but I feel you have low-self esteem and you are tying your sense of self-worth to where you work. Whenever I have heard something negative about Amazon is that they overwork people and there is no work life balance. But almost all of them have said it was worth it in terms of growing and learning. If you feel that what you are working on has enough impact, and you are learning a lot. Put your head down, fuck what others think of Amazon, and grow as an engineer. After that a lot more opportunities might open for you.
  - lowiqengineer 7y ago
    My WLB is good to great, and is for everyone in my greater organization. My problem is that I don’t get off sites to Cabo or free massages.

adreamingsoul 7y ago

I encourage you to speak with a therapist about how you feel. Money is not going to make you happy or proud, comparing yourself to others is a zero-sum game, and living to work comes at a cost. Seriously, find and talk with a professional. How you are feeling now is probably not going to change even if you achieved everything you want.

dkersten 7y ago

I don’t understand why anybody, anywhere, would be proud of where they work. Being proud of your work (what you do/accomplish or the products you put out) sure, but why would I ever be proud of working for any particular company (certainly a for profit. Using amazon as an example, you can be proud of the work you do but why would you be proud that you’re helping make bezos richer?)

dyadic 7y ago
You find one that aligns with your own personal goals and ethics. I found one, and working with other people there feels like a multiplier on the change I want to see in the world. Generally they'll be quite small and niche but they do exist.