17 ms·

Why I’m Leaving San Francisco: Meta study

100 points by ryanckulp 7y ago

smilekzs 7y ago
> i was surprised at how seldom “junior” was written, e.g. “jr developer.” either employees stick around awhile before calling it quits on San Francisco, or they lie about their job title. Because "Junior Software Engineer" is usually written as just "Software Engineer", "Software Engineer I", ...?
- ryanckulp 7y ago
  i wrote this with “just graduated from X bootcamp and will be starting a new job as a jr developer” type commentary in mind. totally valid criticism tho
  - davidcsally 7y ago
    I would love to read a meta article on posts like: `so blessed with ${numOffers}, it was so hard to narrow down, i can't wait to start working at ${company}`
    - ryanckulp 7y ago
      good idea. has anyone ever moved to SF without either 0 prospects OR 13 offers from Google et al?
_bxg1 7y ago
For anyone else who finds the lack of capitalization distracting, run the following in your JS console to fix most of the sentences and "I"s document.querySelectorAll(`p`).forEach(el => { el.textContent = el.textContent.replace(/[\s]i[\s]/g, ' I '); el.textContent = el.textContent.split(/\.[\s]+/g) .filter(sent => !!sent) .map(sent => sent[0].toUpperCase() + sent.substr(1)) .join('. '); }) Edit: Tweaked to filter out empty strings because it died about 80% of the way down the page
- ryanckulp 7y ago
  amazing. maybe i’ll turn this into a toggle on all my posts
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    If you want to provide a toggle, you might be better off including the capitalization in the raw content and using this CSS property to do the lowercasing: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/text-transform https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/text-transf...
    - ryanckulp 7y ago
      it’s tricky cuz i still capitalize proper nouns e.g. San Francisco. i do have css for down-casing title etc however
      - roel_v 7y ago
        Is this a stylistic choice, or a statement about 'speed of living' or so, or why do you do this?
        ryanckulp 7y ago
        i do it to keep things casual. for some reason it drives people crazy. spoke more in depth about this stylistic decision, with context, here: https://www.everyonehatesmarketers.com/marketing-without-budget/ https://www.everyonehatesmarketers.com/marketing-without-bud...
  - kyralis 7y ago
    Please do. The lack of capitalization made me close the tab after about two sentences; this just doesn't make it past my "worth reading" filter. Sure, maybe it's good, but I have heuristics like this for a reason, and I'm quite happy to ignore work that simply can't be bother with basic English language norms.
duaoebg 7y ago
What happened to capital letters?
- dyingkneepad 7y ago
  have you seen how much a capital letter costs in the bay area these days??
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    But I thought they had tons of capital flowing in!
    - asah 7y ago
      But you have to buy them in 3-packs, e.g. TLA. QED
  - masonic 7y ago
    because nimby boomers
- marcinzm 7y ago
  They're apparently fake rules that you're a sheep for following according to the author: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22293891 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22293891
- legohead 7y ago
  other than nouns, what good are they? after ~30 years of online chatting, they kind of naturally went away for me.
  - jshevek 7y ago
    Nice to meet you. I used to write primarily in lower case and often ignored punctuation, because it's faster and easier. I also find less-capitalized-than-normal text easier to read. I find it fascinating that people who communicate largely through certain media (like SMS, or twitter) have evolved their own independent systems for assigning meaning to capitalization and punctuation. While there is a benefit to having an norms shared by all within a discourse community, it's a shame some people are so fastidious and judgemental when applying their own cultural norms to others.
fumar 7y ago
It would be interesting to see the inverse, "Why I am moving to SF" analysis.
- ryanckulp 7y ago
  after hitting publish i acknowledged another opp: “goodbye {{ other city }}” posts. meta meta. perhaps as many people leave nyc, for example, but only the SF posts get shared
generaljelly 7y ago
I also find it curious that safety and sanitation aren't referenced. I by no means have all the answers; however, I am sure my main reason for leaving San Francisco will be along the lines of these things. I've had traumatic experiences living in this city and I am 6 ft male that lifts weights often (I'm just trying to imply that some people most likely get harassed even more than I). I wish I had more of a capacity to help this city rather than leave.
- lubujackson 7y ago
  The surprising thing to me is seeing how bad many other cities have gotten with tent cities and homelessness. I remember (circa 2007) when there were no tents on SF streets, even under the freeway. But then I see how bad other cities have gotten: Portland, LA, Tucson, Vancouver... this is not an isolated issue and each city is managing homelessness/affordability in different ways. Although SF and CA in general have drawn themselves into a corner through decades of bad policy.
computator 7y ago
I wouldn't trust keyword analysis or word frequency to figure out why people are leaving. And unless AI has gotten a lot smarter than I'm aware of, I'd say that the only way to get a meaningful result is to actually read each blog post and then write a short 5-10 word summary. Sure, it's subjective but you'd get a lot more nuance like, "His girlfriend lives in New York", "Misses skiing and now has money to do just that", "Closer to elderly parents who need care", "New startup in Texas that's perfect fit", "Can't renew U.S. visa", "Moving to attend grad school". The author has pared the list down to 137 blog posts, so even a fast reader would take a day to read all of them. But probably he already spent at least a day collecting that data, doing the analysis, creating the graphics, etc., so it's not crazy to suggest doing it manually. Alternatively, the list could be further cut down to 20-40 postings, which could be read in a few hours. That would result in a way more interesting (human) analysis. EDIT: For each blog post, it would be interesting to note the sentiment of whether the person is being pushed out of San Francisco (can't afford the city, lost job, can't renew visa, etc.) or whether they are being pulled to a new location (perfect new job, girlfriend/boyfriend in different location, etc.).
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > I wouldn't trust keyword analysis or word frequency to figure out why people are leaving Even if I trusted automated analysis of blog posts to tell why the authors of the posts are leaving, I wouldn't trust a non-systematic collection of 100 blog posts to reflect people who write blog posts about leaving, nor would I trust people who write blog posts about leaving to represent people who leave.
- ryanckulp 7y ago
  totes - i did all this in < 4 hours but would love to read a more thorough analysis
baby 7y ago
My main reasons: * number of homeless people (they are everywhere) * safety in general * poor public transport * cost of renting and buying * density (it is quite an empty city and is designed for cars) * a bit too cold
- thrway239043 7y ago
  My reasons (left in 2019, moved there in 2011): * Unsafe. 2 vehicle break-ins, 1 apartment intruder while I was home. Fortunately I own a handgun. * Dirty * The proportion of creepy weirdos I met got too high. When I first got there, it was something like 1 out of every 20 people I met. By the end, it was something like 1/4. * Overpriced * Bad transit * Corrupt city government * NIMBYism Why I stayed longer than I should have: * Rent control. I'm paying twice as much in rent now. * The issues didn't appear all at once, they got a little worse each year. * Cost of moving. It cost me around $15k and it took a lot of energy to pack/apartment hunt/unpack/drive with trailer.
  - jerkstate 7y ago
    I left Oakland last summer after 20 years in the Bay Area. I had noticed a gradual decline especially over the past 5-6 years in cleanliness and public safety in my area, including frequent car break-ins (about every 3 months for the last 2 years), visible symptoms of drug addiction and homelessness everywhere, and so on. The disdain for law enforcement as well as individual rights of self-protection is a dangerous combo. When I started a family and realized that I had to make school district decisions in the next few years, I could no longer square the extremely high taxes, decrepit quality of living (including my 90 year old highly energy-inefficient dwelling as well as the well known public sanitation issues) AND the likelihood of private school tuition a few years down the line and started looking for a way out. I hope the Bay Area will right itself (although I don't have any suggestions for how that could be done), but I fear that some of the most impacted areas are going to go through a cycle of urban decay and flight and hit "rock bottom" politically before things get safer and cleaner again.
    - inferiorhuman 7y ago
0h139 7y ago
One factor that wasn't mentioned here (probably because people don't really mention it publicly) that I've anecdotally heard of from a number of people in tech who've made the SF->NYC move is the better gender and career diversity there. For men this can equate to a better dating lifestyle, and just in general some want to be surrounded by people besides tech bros. Regarding politics, I wonder if another way to interpret this is people who find San Francisco too liberal (or unsupportive of Trump) and want to move somewhere more representative of how a majority of the country (however you define that) thinks.
- ryanckulp 7y ago
  ahh the plot thickens. maybe a lot of people leave SF because they support Trump and want more of that. (doesn't exactly explain high NYC frequency, which is also liberal), but i like it
- Redoubts 7y ago
  > I've anecdotally heard of from a number of people in tech who've made the SF->NYC move is the better gender and career diversity there. For men this can equate to a better dating lifestyle, and just in general some want to be surrounded by people besides tech bros. This is absolutely valid and it's sad to see this greyed out. SF dating is a shitshow from many perspectives.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    SF dating is a shitshow from many perspectives. Dating in SF is… interesting, especially if you're trying to do so within the confines of the tech community. Take a look at r/SFr4r (yikes). The tech community out here is also pretty damn small. Looking on HN, facebook, or reddit I'll still run into posts from folks I've gone out with or know professionally. From attending devops days in Manhattan a couple years ago I'd say that the NYC tech community certainly seems more diverse than what I'm used to out here.
- Nuzzerino 7y ago
  > Regarding politics, I wonder if another way to interpret this is people who find San Francisco too liberal (or unsupportive of Trump) and want to move somewhere more representative of how a majority of the country (however you define that) thinks. I'll provide a personal anecdote... I lean on the conservative side, and lived in San Francisco for a few years. I never had any particular desire to live somewhere else just to be around others who believe that the nation can be more effectively governed with lower taxes and a leaner bureaucracy; or those who believe that abortion is murder. However, in the last five years, there's been a large uptick in representation of a very opinionated, very loud, and increasingly violent minority of those associated with the left. The kind of people who will call you a Nazi for not agreeing with them, or for suggesting in any context that a person ought to be responsible for their own well-being. I think I'm not alone in stating that was a factor in my moving away from the area. I did not even vote for Trump in 2016 by the way, and I left in 2017.
mrnobody_67 7y ago
Better to just look at 1-way Uhaul truck rental trends -- https://www.uhaul.com/Articles/About/19966/U-Haul-Migration-Trends-Top-25-Growth-Cities-Of-2019/ https://www.uhaul.com/Articles/About/19966/U-Haul-Migration-...
ninth_ant 7y ago
> thus i’m curious how conservatives or Trump have anything to do with one’s departure. Perhaps, because one can leave the country when you leave SF? I did.
gacklesmom 7y ago
I'm a little disappointed that you're still convinced it's a "safety" thing. People say the same thing about Seattle, and virtually without exception they're people who have simply never lived in a major city before, and wildly misunderstand what counts as "crime." Like the guy upthread who wanted to move because he'd experienced two car prowls.
- ryanckulp 7y ago
  i lived in the brand-new Trinity tower on 8th / Mission. leaving my apartment each morning for work i saw... 5-12 broken car windows along 8th outside the hotel. despicable. one could argue a robbed car at 2am is not a safety issue (if nobody is in the car), but i somewhat agree with the broken window theory. the first day i bought a new bicycle and parked/locked it outside the big mall on Market, in front of 2 security guards, my seat was stolen within 30 minutes. etc etc. presence of crime == less safe.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    Property crime != violent crime. San Francisco has a problem with both, but the issues with theft and vandalism are far worse than things that'll directly threaten your personal safety.
    - ericd 7y ago
      Well, property crime tends to make people feel unsafe, even if they’re not personally in danger.
    - pnathan 7y ago
      Crime is, fundamentally, crime. Particularly for these cut and dried historical elements like "theft". It's breaking both law and ancient custom. SF needs to address this crime situation. So does, for that matter, Seattle. Short, medium, and long term solutions need to be developed, promoted, and delivered.
    - jshevek 7y ago
      I agree that one can mis-evaluate the level of personal threat by assigning the wrong meaning to evidence of property crimes. This doesn't mean we should assign no meaning, though. Many of the factors at play which can cause escalations of property crime can also lead to violent crime. It may not be rational to see a broken car window and conclude that you are about to be mugged, but if you want to be as safe as possible you probably would prefer to live somewhere where cars are not often broken into.
thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
We left in 2015 because: 1) The extremely high cost of living which makes everyone poor. only 25% of the housing there is market rate and thus available. Our salaries were pretty high working in tech, but not high enough to afford a nice place to live in SF. 2) Homelessness 3) The politics. 4) Poop (although much worse now). It's not so much the poop itself that bothers me. It's the attitude of the politicians in SF. we just really disliked the way things were being handled and are currently being handled in SF. They are "progressive" in title only. there's really no progress in living standard at all. if anything, things are getting worse and worse and worse, based on the things I've read and the stories I'm hearing. 5) we didn't want to live in a city that might not even be able to provide schooling for our child. 6) Day care costs would have been astronomical (by now it's up to 3000 per month, i've heard)
- nostrademons 7y ago
  > They are "progressive" in title only. there's really no progress in living standard at all. "Progressive" usually refers to progress in equality & social justice. There've been many instances in American history where a small group has made significant progress at the expense of some larger outside group: initial settlement, slavery, Manifest Destiny, industrialization, redlining, the software boom. These are usually not labeled as progressive. The in-group usually labels them with terms like "destiny", "building the future", "progress" (not "progressive"), "technology", and "rationalization", while the out-group labels them as "colonialism", "imperialism", "conquest", and "corporate greed". The other major eras of progressivism in the U.S. (1900-1929 and the Civil Rights era from 1965-1980) also did not feature rising living standards for the dominant social group. The former involved a plateau in the rate of technological development & industrialization while increasing unionization started sharing those fruits more broadly, while the latter involved an extension of basic civil rights to non-whites, at the same time that stagflation was taking root and the wages of the white working class started to plateau. Keep that in mind: when you hear "progressive" it might not be progress for you.
  - Nuzzerino 7y ago
    > Keep that in mind: when you hear "progressive" it might not be progress for you. You're missing the point. While it's debatable whether the theory of progressivism is working out for the homelessness, I hope we can agree that the execution has been horrible. Progressives have controlled the local government there for some time now, and since they've done so, things have grown worse. The situation hasn't been much better in Seattle, Chicago, or Detroit. Progressives like to point fingers to blame others for the problems, but there's a very real possibility that, yes, they really are in actuality regressive for everyone, homeless included.
ddebernardy 7y ago
> thus i’m curious how conservatives or Trump have anything to do with one’s departure. Oh, that one's simple enough if you assume they're part of the reason why you'd leave the country. And while we're on that topic, the same two reasons might also get factored into deciding to not come to SF or any other US city -- alongside guns, overpriced education, and overpriced healthcare.
datashow 7y ago
This is an interesting analysis. It's kind of social science research. I wish the author had some training in the area. A simple way to improve the trustworthy of the analysis is having another person working with you to develop the categories, and then independently code the posts, and then resolve the differences through discussion.
Apocryphon 7y ago
I'm quite disappointed that tech-bro.com redirects to some sort of Chinese linkspam site. Or perhaps that's apt.
- ryanckulp 7y ago
  debated making this a real link but not trying to single anyone out
downerending 7y ago
When I ran the numbers about a decade ago, the BA was significantly more expensive than NY, at least if you need a house and a good school for your kids. SF proper is inconceivable, of course.
mistersquid 7y ago
> sadly i failed to write my own retrospective when i left in 2016 after a year of working in venture capital, then a portfolio startup, and then founding my own company. Not to put too fine a point on it, but 1 year to do any one of these things, let alone all three, doesn't really seem like much time at all.
oso2k 7y ago
This ought to have been a “Show HN:” post.
1290cc 7y ago
The homeless and trash situation in the bay area has exploded in the last 2 years. Big sections of 880 are strewn with trash like a dump site and there are tent cities populating the underpasses in Berkeley, West/East Oakland. The cities governments seem paralyzed between bickering homeless advocacy groups, CalTrans and tax payers furious at the decline of so many public areas. Time is running out for some of the regions politicians. With hundreds of millions spent, it feels like there is almost zero impact.
- vuln 7y ago
  Try hundreds of BILLIONS spent. https://www.kpbs.org/news/2019/jun/13/californias-213-billion-budget-focuses-health-home/ https://www.kpbs.org/news/2019/jun/13/californias-213-billio...
  - 1290cc 7y ago
    I'm probably looking in the wrong place but this was the only statement I could find on California's annual homeless budget in the linked article... "California's homeless and housing crises are linked, and the budget will spend $2.4 billion addressing those concerns." This is roughly 1% of the annual operating budget. Not much as $60k/person would cover just 40,000 people. Homeless advocacy/Non-profits would take a large percentage of this for administration so the per person dollar spend is far lower.
ryanckulp 7y ago
what a stupid comment. replying to preserve the theme
fredsanford 7y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYSyWUsxyc8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYSyWUsxyc8
usctrojan415 7y ago
https://eddie-hernandez.com/dating-in-san-francisco/ https://eddie-hernandez.com/dating-in-san-francisco/

100 points by ryanckulp 7y ago

> i was surprised at how seldom “junior” was written, e.g. “jr developer.” either employees stick around awhile before calling it quits on San Francisco, or they lie about their job title. Because "Junior Software Engineer" is usually written as just "Software Engineer", "Software Engineer I", ...?

ryanckulp 7y ago
i wrote this with “just graduated from X bootcamp and will be starting a new job as a jr developer” type commentary in mind. totally valid criticism tho
- davidcsally 7y ago
  I would love to read a meta article on posts like: `so blessed with ${numOffers}, it was so hard to narrow down, i can't wait to start working at ${company}`
  - ryanckulp 7y ago
    good idea. has anyone ever moved to SF without either 0 prospects OR 13 offers from Google et al?

_bxg1 7y ago

For anyone else who finds the lack of capitalization distracting, run the following in your JS console to fix most of the sentences and "I"s document.querySelectorAll(`p`).forEach(el => { el.textContent = el.textContent.replace(/[\s]i[\s]/g, ' I '); el.textContent = el.textContent.split(/\.[\s]+/g) .filter(sent => !!sent) .map(sent => sent[0].toUpperCase() + sent.substr(1)) .join('. '); }) Edit: Tweaked to filter out empty strings because it died about 80% of the way down the page

ryanckulp 7y ago
amazing. maybe i’ll turn this into a toggle on all my posts
- _bxg1 7y ago
  If you want to provide a toggle, you might be better off including the capitalization in the raw content and using this CSS property to do the lowercasing: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/text-transform https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/text-transf...
  - ryanckulp 7y ago
    it’s tricky cuz i still capitalize proper nouns e.g. San Francisco. i do have css for down-casing title etc however
    - roel_v 7y ago
      Is this a stylistic choice, or a statement about 'speed of living' or so, or why do you do this?
      - ryanckulp 7y ago
        i do it to keep things casual. for some reason it drives people crazy. spoke more in depth about this stylistic decision, with context, here: https://www.everyonehatesmarketers.com/marketing-without-budget/ https://www.everyonehatesmarketers.com/marketing-without-bud...
- kyralis 7y ago
  Please do. The lack of capitalization made me close the tab after about two sentences; this just doesn't make it past my "worth reading" filter. Sure, maybe it's good, but I have heuristics like this for a reason, and I'm quite happy to ignore work that simply can't be bother with basic English language norms.

duaoebg 7y ago

What happened to capital letters?

dyingkneepad 7y ago
have you seen how much a capital letter costs in the bay area these days??
- _bxg1 7y ago
  But I thought they had tons of capital flowing in!
  - asah 7y ago
    But you have to buy them in 3-packs, e.g. TLA. QED
- masonic 7y ago
  because nimby boomers
marcinzm 7y ago
They're apparently fake rules that you're a sheep for following according to the author: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22293891 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22293891
legohead 7y ago
other than nouns, what good are they? after ~30 years of online chatting, they kind of naturally went away for me.
- jshevek 7y ago
  Nice to meet you. I used to write primarily in lower case and often ignored punctuation, because it's faster and easier. I also find less-capitalized-than-normal text easier to read. I find it fascinating that people who communicate largely through certain media (like SMS, or twitter) have evolved their own independent systems for assigning meaning to capitalization and punctuation. While there is a benefit to having an norms shared by all within a discourse community, it's a shame some people are so fastidious and judgemental when applying their own cultural norms to others.

fumar 7y ago

It would be interesting to see the inverse, "Why I am moving to SF" analysis.

ryanckulp 7y ago
after hitting publish i acknowledged another opp: “goodbye {{ other city }}” posts. meta meta. perhaps as many people leave nyc, for example, but only the SF posts get shared

generaljelly 7y ago

I also find it curious that safety and sanitation aren't referenced. I by no means have all the answers; however, I am sure my main reason for leaving San Francisco will be along the lines of these things. I've had traumatic experiences living in this city and I am 6 ft male that lifts weights often (I'm just trying to imply that some people most likely get harassed even more than I). I wish I had more of a capacity to help this city rather than leave.

lubujackson 7y ago
The surprising thing to me is seeing how bad many other cities have gotten with tent cities and homelessness. I remember (circa 2007) when there were no tents on SF streets, even under the freeway. But then I see how bad other cities have gotten: Portland, LA, Tucson, Vancouver... this is not an isolated issue and each city is managing homelessness/affordability in different ways. Although SF and CA in general have drawn themselves into a corner through decades of bad policy.

computator 7y ago

I wouldn't trust keyword analysis or word frequency to figure out why people are leaving. And unless AI has gotten a lot smarter than I'm aware of, I'd say that the only way to get a meaningful result is to actually read each blog post and then write a short 5-10 word summary. Sure, it's subjective but you'd get a lot more nuance like, "His girlfriend lives in New York", "Misses skiing and now has money to do just that", "Closer to elderly parents who need care", "New startup in Texas that's perfect fit", "Can't renew U.S. visa", "Moving to attend grad school". The author has pared the list down to 137 blog posts, so even a fast reader would take a day to read all of them. But probably he already spent at least a day collecting that data, doing the analysis, creating the graphics, etc., so it's not crazy to suggest doing it manually. Alternatively, the list could be further cut down to 20-40 postings, which could be read in a few hours. That would result in a way more interesting (human) analysis. EDIT: For each blog post, it would be interesting to note the sentiment of whether the person is being pushed out of San Francisco (can't afford the city, lost job, can't renew visa, etc.) or whether they are being pulled to a new location (perfect new job, girlfriend/boyfriend in different location, etc.).

dragonwriter 7y ago
> I wouldn't trust keyword analysis or word frequency to figure out why people are leaving Even if I trusted automated analysis of blog posts to tell why the authors of the posts are leaving, I wouldn't trust a non-systematic collection of 100 blog posts to reflect people who write blog posts about leaving, nor would I trust people who write blog posts about leaving to represent people who leave.
ryanckulp 7y ago
totes - i did all this in < 4 hours but would love to read a more thorough analysis

baby 7y ago

My main reasons: * number of homeless people (they are everywhere) * safety in general * poor public transport * cost of renting and buying * density (it is quite an empty city and is designed for cars) * a bit too cold

thrway239043 7y ago
My reasons (left in 2019, moved there in 2011): * Unsafe. 2 vehicle break-ins, 1 apartment intruder while I was home. Fortunately I own a handgun. * Dirty * The proportion of creepy weirdos I met got too high. When I first got there, it was something like 1 out of every 20 people I met. By the end, it was something like 1/4. * Overpriced * Bad transit * Corrupt city government * NIMBYism Why I stayed longer than I should have: * Rent control. I'm paying twice as much in rent now. * The issues didn't appear all at once, they got a little worse each year. * Cost of moving. It cost me around $15k and it took a lot of energy to pack/apartment hunt/unpack/drive with trailer.
- jerkstate 7y ago
  I left Oakland last summer after 20 years in the Bay Area. I had noticed a gradual decline especially over the past 5-6 years in cleanliness and public safety in my area, including frequent car break-ins (about every 3 months for the last 2 years), visible symptoms of drug addiction and homelessness everywhere, and so on. The disdain for law enforcement as well as individual rights of self-protection is a dangerous combo. When I started a family and realized that I had to make school district decisions in the next few years, I could no longer square the extremely high taxes, decrepit quality of living (including my 90 year old highly energy-inefficient dwelling as well as the well known public sanitation issues) AND the likelihood of private school tuition a few years down the line and started looking for a way out. I hope the Bay Area will right itself (although I don't have any suggestions for how that could be done), but I fear that some of the most impacted areas are going to go through a cycle of urban decay and flight and hit "rock bottom" politically before things get safer and cleaner again.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago

0h139 7y ago

One factor that wasn't mentioned here (probably because people don't really mention it publicly) that I've anecdotally heard of from a number of people in tech who've made the SF->NYC move is the better gender and career diversity there. For men this can equate to a better dating lifestyle, and just in general some want to be surrounded by people besides tech bros. Regarding politics, I wonder if another way to interpret this is people who find San Francisco too liberal (or unsupportive of Trump) and want to move somewhere more representative of how a majority of the country (however you define that) thinks.

ryanckulp 7y ago
ahh the plot thickens. maybe a lot of people leave SF because they support Trump and want more of that. (doesn't exactly explain high NYC frequency, which is also liberal), but i like it
Redoubts 7y ago
> I've anecdotally heard of from a number of people in tech who've made the SF->NYC move is the better gender and career diversity there. For men this can equate to a better dating lifestyle, and just in general some want to be surrounded by people besides tech bros. This is absolutely valid and it's sad to see this greyed out. SF dating is a shitshow from many perspectives.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  SF dating is a shitshow from many perspectives. Dating in SF is… interesting, especially if you're trying to do so within the confines of the tech community. Take a look at r/SFr4r (yikes). The tech community out here is also pretty damn small. Looking on HN, facebook, or reddit I'll still run into posts from folks I've gone out with or know professionally. From attending devops days in Manhattan a couple years ago I'd say that the NYC tech community certainly seems more diverse than what I'm used to out here.
Nuzzerino 7y ago
> Regarding politics, I wonder if another way to interpret this is people who find San Francisco too liberal (or unsupportive of Trump) and want to move somewhere more representative of how a majority of the country (however you define that) thinks. I'll provide a personal anecdote... I lean on the conservative side, and lived in San Francisco for a few years. I never had any particular desire to live somewhere else just to be around others who believe that the nation can be more effectively governed with lower taxes and a leaner bureaucracy; or those who believe that abortion is murder. However, in the last five years, there's been a large uptick in representation of a very opinionated, very loud, and increasingly violent minority of those associated with the left. The kind of people who will call you a Nazi for not agreeing with them, or for suggesting in any context that a person ought to be responsible for their own well-being. I think I'm not alone in stating that was a factor in my moving away from the area. I did not even vote for Trump in 2016 by the way, and I left in 2017.

mrnobody_67 7y ago

Better to just look at 1-way Uhaul truck rental trends -- https://www.uhaul.com/Articles/About/19966/U-Haul-Migration-Trends-Top-25-Growth-Cities-Of-2019/ https://www.uhaul.com/Articles/About/19966/U-Haul-Migration-...

ninth_ant 7y ago

> thus i’m curious how conservatives or Trump have anything to do with one’s departure. Perhaps, because one can leave the country when you leave SF? I did.

gacklesmom 7y ago

I'm a little disappointed that you're still convinced it's a "safety" thing. People say the same thing about Seattle, and virtually without exception they're people who have simply never lived in a major city before, and wildly misunderstand what counts as "crime." Like the guy upthread who wanted to move because he'd experienced two car prowls.

ryanckulp 7y ago
i lived in the brand-new Trinity tower on 8th / Mission. leaving my apartment each morning for work i saw... 5-12 broken car windows along 8th outside the hotel. despicable. one could argue a robbed car at 2am is not a safety issue (if nobody is in the car), but i somewhat agree with the broken window theory. the first day i bought a new bicycle and parked/locked it outside the big mall on Market, in front of 2 security guards, my seat was stolen within 30 minutes. etc etc. presence of crime == less safe.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  Property crime != violent crime. San Francisco has a problem with both, but the issues with theft and vandalism are far worse than things that'll directly threaten your personal safety.
  - ericd 7y ago
    Well, property crime tends to make people feel unsafe, even if they’re not personally in danger.
  - pnathan 7y ago
    Crime is, fundamentally, crime. Particularly for these cut and dried historical elements like "theft". It's breaking both law and ancient custom. SF needs to address this crime situation. So does, for that matter, Seattle. Short, medium, and long term solutions need to be developed, promoted, and delivered.
  - jshevek 7y ago
    I agree that one can mis-evaluate the level of personal threat by assigning the wrong meaning to evidence of property crimes. This doesn't mean we should assign no meaning, though. Many of the factors at play which can cause escalations of property crime can also lead to violent crime. It may not be rational to see a broken car window and conclude that you are about to be mugged, but if you want to be as safe as possible you probably would prefer to live somewhere where cars are not often broken into.

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago

We left in 2015 because: 1) The extremely high cost of living which makes everyone poor. only 25% of the housing there is market rate and thus available. Our salaries were pretty high working in tech, but not high enough to afford a nice place to live in SF. 2) Homelessness 3) The politics. 4) Poop (although much worse now). It's not so much the poop itself that bothers me. It's the attitude of the politicians in SF. we just really disliked the way things were being handled and are currently being handled in SF. They are "progressive" in title only. there's really no progress in living standard at all. if anything, things are getting worse and worse and worse, based on the things I've read and the stories I'm hearing. 5) we didn't want to live in a city that might not even be able to provide schooling for our child. 6) Day care costs would have been astronomical (by now it's up to 3000 per month, i've heard)

nostrademons 7y ago
> They are "progressive" in title only. there's really no progress in living standard at all. "Progressive" usually refers to progress in equality & social justice. There've been many instances in American history where a small group has made significant progress at the expense of some larger outside group: initial settlement, slavery, Manifest Destiny, industrialization, redlining, the software boom. These are usually not labeled as progressive. The in-group usually labels them with terms like "destiny", "building the future", "progress" (not "progressive"), "technology", and "rationalization", while the out-group labels them as "colonialism", "imperialism", "conquest", and "corporate greed". The other major eras of progressivism in the U.S. (1900-1929 and the Civil Rights era from 1965-1980) also did not feature rising living standards for the dominant social group. The former involved a plateau in the rate of technological development & industrialization while increasing unionization started sharing those fruits more broadly, while the latter involved an extension of basic civil rights to non-whites, at the same time that stagflation was taking root and the wages of the white working class started to plateau. Keep that in mind: when you hear "progressive" it might not be progress for you.
- Nuzzerino 7y ago
  > Keep that in mind: when you hear "progressive" it might not be progress for you. You're missing the point. While it's debatable whether the theory of progressivism is working out for the homelessness, I hope we can agree that the execution has been horrible. Progressives have controlled the local government there for some time now, and since they've done so, things have grown worse. The situation hasn't been much better in Seattle, Chicago, or Detroit. Progressives like to point fingers to blame others for the problems, but there's a very real possibility that, yes, they really are in actuality regressive for everyone, homeless included.

ddebernardy 7y ago

> thus i’m curious how conservatives or Trump have anything to do with one’s departure. Oh, that one's simple enough if you assume they're part of the reason why you'd leave the country. And while we're on that topic, the same two reasons might also get factored into deciding to not come to SF or any other US city -- alongside guns, overpriced education, and overpriced healthcare.

datashow 7y ago

This is an interesting analysis. It's kind of social science research. I wish the author had some training in the area. A simple way to improve the trustworthy of the analysis is having another person working with you to develop the categories, and then independently code the posts, and then resolve the differences through discussion.

Apocryphon 7y ago

I'm quite disappointed that tech-bro.com redirects to some sort of Chinese linkspam site. Or perhaps that's apt.

ryanckulp 7y ago
debated making this a real link but not trying to single anyone out

downerending 7y ago

When I ran the numbers about a decade ago, the BA was significantly more expensive than NY, at least if you need a house and a good school for your kids. SF proper is inconceivable, of course.

mistersquid 7y ago

> sadly i failed to write my own retrospective when i left in 2016 after a year of working in venture capital, then a portfolio startup, and then founding my own company. Not to put too fine a point on it, but 1 year to do any one of these things, let alone all three, doesn't really seem like much time at all.

oso2k 7y ago

This ought to have been a “Show HN:” post.

1290cc 7y ago

The homeless and trash situation in the bay area has exploded in the last 2 years. Big sections of 880 are strewn with trash like a dump site and there are tent cities populating the underpasses in Berkeley, West/East Oakland. The cities governments seem paralyzed between bickering homeless advocacy groups, CalTrans and tax payers furious at the decline of so many public areas. Time is running out for some of the regions politicians. With hundreds of millions spent, it feels like there is almost zero impact.

vuln 7y ago
Try hundreds of BILLIONS spent. https://www.kpbs.org/news/2019/jun/13/californias-213-billion-budget-focuses-health-home/ https://www.kpbs.org/news/2019/jun/13/californias-213-billio...
- 1290cc 7y ago
  I'm probably looking in the wrong place but this was the only statement I could find on California's annual homeless budget in the linked article... "California's homeless and housing crises are linked, and the budget will spend $2.4 billion addressing those concerns." This is roughly 1% of the annual operating budget. Not much as $60k/person would cover just 40,000 people. Homeless advocacy/Non-profits would take a large percentage of this for administration so the per person dollar spend is far lower.

ryanckulp 7y ago

what a stupid comment. replying to preserve the theme

fredsanford 7y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYSyWUsxyc8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYSyWUsxyc8

usctrojan415 7y ago

https://eddie-hernandez.com/dating-in-san-francisco/ https://eddie-hernandez.com/dating-in-san-francisco/