5 ms·

So some thing that are a bit less glamorous than described on the article is that one reason this works so well is because of the conditions of the place it run

So some thing that are a bit less glamorous than described on the article is that one reason this works so well is because of the conditions of the place it runs in. This coop comes from the basque country, a northern autonomous region of Spain. It is a fairly rich area, with a huge port and industrial past and a pretty tight knit community. This generates an environment that allows for certain things to happen. One is an area less prone to economic recessions, with higher wage equality and a more egalitarian and humanistic approach to business. On the negative side though there is an insidious xenophobia that permeates the area. Essentially a lot of the ads they run (for example for their supermarket brand Eroski) do so on a platform of "its better because its basque". Like basque cows, basque cheese etc. Many of our companies brag about "we only hire local people", so music festivals for example have all the staff hired locally rather than having an open hiring process or allowing bands to bring their staff. This is a bit of a double edged sword where we are creating a bit of a local maximum for the basque country economy at the expense of a worse average for everyone else (assuming market conditions can create Nash equilibriums). Now I do believe Mondragon has done some fantastic stuff, but they are not without a fault and they also exist thanks to an environment that allows such conditions to exist and do the work they do.

hkt 7y ago
You forget the influence of the church. Much of the origins of the coop businesses come from church oriented communities serving their needs in some way. I'd also argue that lots of relatively limited local maxima where everyone is happy and materially comfortable is a million times better than centralised hell of capitalism as it stands. Limited maybe, but most people won't approach the ceiling in more dynamic places. It's the greatest good for the greatest number.
- TurboHaskal 7y ago
  Well it's Catholic doctrine after all. Edit: Downvoters should read about distributism.
  - jawns 7y ago
    Hi, I'm a big fan of distributism and co-ops, and I'm also a Catholic. But I have to quibble with you. Distributism is not Catholic doctrine. It's a third-way economic system that is compatible with Catholic social teaching, and several influential Catholic figures, such as G.K. Chesterton, helped promulgate it. But you don't have to be Catholic to be a distributist, and you can be a Catholic without being a distributist.
    - TurboHaskal 7y ago
      Oh, I didn't know the English term. In my country we literally say what it would mean "Catholic social doctrine" instead.
    - Wildgoose 7y ago
      I'm also a big fan of Distributism (and G.K. Chesterton for that matter), but my background is Protestant. Distributism is just a great idea that everybody should support.
- Tyrek 7y ago
  Local maxima is explicitly not the greatest good for the greatest number. In many ways, it's the greatest good for the greatest visible number, and only for a relatively short period of time. I'm not the biggest fan of raw unbridled capitalism, but there are aspects to innovation and competition that you're absolutely passing on if you default to local maxima solutions. Long term, you're going to get outcompeted/outteched if you remain in the status quo.
AshamedCaptain 7y ago
To advertise something as "it's better because it's basque/$COUNTRY" is not xenophobic at all. First, because by that definition then almost everyone would be (e.g. french). Second, because there are actual objective benefits of sourcing local products (e.g. environmental). I also really doubt what you explain is universally applicable as it looks to be a very large corporation anyway.
- Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
  Its better because its local is not xenophobic, its better because its from within some made up geographical boundries is. There are tons of objective reasons to promote local products, we have incredible soil and weather, we have a historical tradition of shepherding and sea faring. But none of that is promoted, its the "its from here" with vague connotations. It is a large corporation that has had a huge trouble expanding outside the local area of influence. Eroski has been a huge supermarket in the basque country for decades and has never hold more than a minimun influence in spain (despite other supermaket chains like Mercadona appearing much later and now dominating the country). Fagor grew steadily to 5,600 employees and then went bankrupt leaving all but 700 unemployed when a company from elsewhere bought the remains. The university has 4 thousand students and most are basque. They are massive but they are massive because they have a huge influence on a very rich part of spain
  - AshamedCaptain 7y ago
    Every definition of "localness" is also a "made up geographical boundary" so I fail to see the distinction. It is precisely "it's from here" that my argument applied to. I.e. a supermarket advertising "it's from here" produce is not xenophobic. From my experience, Spain is actually one of the countries in Europe where it is extremely hard to find local produce. Almost everywhere else I can find specific aisle for "it's from here stuff" and again I fail to see why that would be xenophobic. At least I always prefer to buy from there since it's usually more reasonable ecologically-wise.
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
pharke 7y ago
It sounds like the strategy is working. I wonder how many of the current successes would be possible if it operated the same as any other region of Spain. I'm not sure how far the xenophobic attitude you mention extends but it sounds more like the 'buy local' movement the way you describe it here. In regards to game theory, the outcomes of this particular game may even be more optimal given that the set of actions is more constrained and the strategies are better known.
jariel 7y ago
Promoting one's own culture is possibly ethnocentric, but it's not xenophobic.
johntiger1 7y ago
Very interesting (and refreshing) counterpoint! Makes me think about Norway/Finland and whether something similar is going on here
therrazerr 7y ago
Spaniards would never do that, promoting Spanish products cause they are Spanish? now way... https://www.mapa.gob.es/es/alimentacion/temas/nacidos_en_espana_admirados_en_el_mundo.aspx https://www.mapa.gob.es/es/alimentacion/temas/nacidos_en_esp... Motto is: "Born in Spain, admired through the world" (that is an official Spanish government site, for the record" edit: site motto translated.

hkt 7y ago

You forget the influence of the church. Much of the origins of the coop businesses come from church oriented communities serving their needs in some way. I'd also argue that lots of relatively limited local maxima where everyone is happy and materially comfortable is a million times better than centralised hell of capitalism as it stands. Limited maybe, but most people won't approach the ceiling in more dynamic places. It's the greatest good for the greatest number.

TurboHaskal 7y ago
Well it's Catholic doctrine after all. Edit: Downvoters should read about distributism.
- jawns 7y ago
  Hi, I'm a big fan of distributism and co-ops, and I'm also a Catholic. But I have to quibble with you. Distributism is not Catholic doctrine. It's a third-way economic system that is compatible with Catholic social teaching, and several influential Catholic figures, such as G.K. Chesterton, helped promulgate it. But you don't have to be Catholic to be a distributist, and you can be a Catholic without being a distributist.
  - TurboHaskal 7y ago
    Oh, I didn't know the English term. In my country we literally say what it would mean "Catholic social doctrine" instead.
  - Wildgoose 7y ago
    I'm also a big fan of Distributism (and G.K. Chesterton for that matter), but my background is Protestant. Distributism is just a great idea that everybody should support.
Tyrek 7y ago
Local maxima is explicitly not the greatest good for the greatest number. In many ways, it's the greatest good for the greatest visible number, and only for a relatively short period of time. I'm not the biggest fan of raw unbridled capitalism, but there are aspects to innovation and competition that you're absolutely passing on if you default to local maxima solutions. Long term, you're going to get outcompeted/outteched if you remain in the status quo.

AshamedCaptain 7y ago

To advertise something as "it's better because it's basque/$COUNTRY" is not xenophobic at all. First, because by that definition then almost everyone would be (e.g. french). Second, because there are actual objective benefits of sourcing local products (e.g. environmental). I also really doubt what you explain is universally applicable as it looks to be a very large corporation anyway.

Arkhaine_kupo 7y ago
Its better because its local is not xenophobic, its better because its from within some made up geographical boundries is. There are tons of objective reasons to promote local products, we have incredible soil and weather, we have a historical tradition of shepherding and sea faring. But none of that is promoted, its the "its from here" with vague connotations. It is a large corporation that has had a huge trouble expanding outside the local area of influence. Eroski has been a huge supermarket in the basque country for decades and has never hold more than a minimun influence in spain (despite other supermaket chains like Mercadona appearing much later and now dominating the country). Fagor grew steadily to 5,600 employees and then went bankrupt leaving all but 700 unemployed when a company from elsewhere bought the remains. The university has 4 thousand students and most are basque. They are massive but they are massive because they have a huge influence on a very rich part of spain
- AshamedCaptain 7y ago
  Every definition of "localness" is also a "made up geographical boundary" so I fail to see the distinction. It is precisely "it's from here" that my argument applied to. I.e. a supermarket advertising "it's from here" produce is not xenophobic. From my experience, Spain is actually one of the countries in Europe where it is extremely hard to find local produce. Almost everywhere else I can find specific aisle for "it's from here stuff" and again I fail to see why that would be xenophobic. At least I always prefer to buy from there since it's usually more reasonable ecologically-wise.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago

pharke 7y ago

It sounds like the strategy is working. I wonder how many of the current successes would be possible if it operated the same as any other region of Spain. I'm not sure how far the xenophobic attitude you mention extends but it sounds more like the 'buy local' movement the way you describe it here. In regards to game theory, the outcomes of this particular game may even be more optimal given that the set of actions is more constrained and the strategies are better known.

jariel 7y ago

Promoting one's own culture is possibly ethnocentric, but it's not xenophobic.

johntiger1 7y ago

Very interesting (and refreshing) counterpoint! Makes me think about Norway/Finland and whether something similar is going on here

therrazerr 7y ago

Spaniards would never do that, promoting Spanish products cause they are Spanish? now way... https://www.mapa.gob.es/es/alimentacion/temas/nacidos_en_espana_admirados_en_el_mundo.aspx https://www.mapa.gob.es/es/alimentacion/temas/nacidos_en_esp... Motto is: "Born in Spain, admired through the world" (that is an official Spanish government site, for the record" edit: site motto translated.