13 ms·

The Website Obesity Crisis (2015)

49 points by sysoleg 7y ago

medymed 7y ago
As long as general websites load in under a certain time period the sites seem to maximize bloat up to that point. Reminds of the commuting time period—-if more highways are built to reduce traffic and speed up commutes, more people will drive, eventually more will relocate so that the average commute ends up being ~40 minutes again. Whatever tolerance is true for the vast majority of users can often become the standard, and if so then non-vocal small opposing groups are forced to adapt...or just complain.
- weare138 7y ago
  I understand the point you're making but the difference is increased use of these websites is not what's increasing the size of the sites themselves.
- edflsafoiewq 7y ago
  Yes, Jevons effect. I read papers about video compression sometimes. Some introductory paragraph about how much of the internet's bandwidth is consumed by video and therefore how much we have to gain from better video compression appears with amusing frequency.
newnewpdro 7y ago
High dpi screens have made this so much worse. Try browsing the web on a 128kbps ISDN-like connection, many sites are too slow to be usable or outright broken due to their own timeouts. What I've noticed is many new sites are using huge high-res images as some kind of maximum-common-denominator to ensure things look great on high dpi screens, while everyone else has to transfer all this junk only to downscale it anyways at render time. I'm often on a slow link and it's made me stop using the web almost entirely, outside of HN and reddit. Slack for instance is completely broken, it can't even manage to finish logging in without giving up. It used to be that slow internet users just had to wait longer, but things largely worked correctly. Nowadays, with lots more javascript and async stuff having web developers programming timeouts and probably never once testing on a slow link, a lot of things are flat out broken.
- seanwilson 7y ago
  > What I've noticed is many new sites are using huge high-res images as some kind of maximum-common-denominator to ensure things look great on high dpi screens Obviously this is far from good but what's the practical solution for this? As far as I know, doing this with HTML + CSS alone by yourself is tedious and error-prone e.g. figure out manually the maximum size of each image, generate all variations of the image sizes yourself, then use HTML/CSS to load the right ones. There's CDN, web server and CMS specific solutions that dynamically resize + cache images on demand but they're far from common place so I'm not surprised most website owners don't do this well.
  - watchdogtimer 7y ago
    Isn't the <srcset> element supposed to solve this problem?
    - seanwilson 7y ago
      How do you generate the image files srcset is meant to load? How many different width and DPI variations do you make? How do you generate the srcset markup to load the right image file? What's your workflow when you want to update an image and change its width?
      - newnewpdro 7y ago
        I presume you're expected to work in the highest dpi, then have a post process stage for publishing the site which then generates the variants for you.
  - adventured 7y ago
    The solution was arrived at a long time ago. It looks like this: https://text.npr.org https://text.npr.org Or: https://lite.cnn.io https://lite.cnn.io With better formatting. You make a text only or otherwise very reduced version of your site available to visitors. Ideally in that version you drop the images entirely. You can optionally attempt to measure the capabilities of a visitor, how they're experiencing your site, and actively present them with the reduced option (the far easier thing to do, is to just make a reduced version available and let visitors know it exists somewhere prominent enough). Visitors want the content, not the ridiculous SEO image. If you build for this from the beginning of a site, it's extremely easy to deliver and maintain.
ErikAugust 7y ago
You can trim the fat off articles with https://beta.trimread.com https://beta.trimread.com. Going to open source too.
mc3 7y ago
We had some storms and network outages yesterday. I was down to 3G, it seemed like dialup speeds. Hacker news faithfully loaded after 30 seconds (I think most of that time there was zero connection, so when a few bytes could fly through it loaded up). I couldn't get any other site to load. Not even google.com. It made me want to create a website called "lowbandwidthsites.com" or similar that is itself minimal and just lists the sites that you can load when there is low bandwidth for news etc. A low bandwitdth read-only repeater for sites like reddit.com would be handy. Or maybe a general purpose low bandwidth repeater that can take any site - a bit like outline.com/mysite.com but even lower fidelity - just returns the markdown! Edit looks like it has been done: https://www.textise.net/ https://www.textise.net/
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  Rhode Island?
- ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
  > It made me want to create a website called "lowbandwidthsites.com" or similar that is itself minimal and just lists the sites that you can load when there is low bandwidth for news etc. It wouldn't even be about "when there is low bandwidth" for me. I'd love to see a network of sites and blogs that stick to minimal/simple design. Maybe a website that consists of a Medium-clone but super lightweight (allowing users to have their own blogs without the bloat), plus a directory of external sites that stick to the same ethos. Throw in a feed showing you new blog posts and directory links (maybe also pull in posts from the external sites via RSS), and that pretty much sounds like heaven to me personally. I hate browsing the modern web. It's like wading through a sewer looking for treasure.
  - nkrisc 7y ago
    There's always text.npr.org for news. The home page weighs in at a little over 2kb.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  Reddit in particular has https://i.reddit.com https://i.reddit.com. I don't know that it's quite light enough for a situation where even Google.com is too much, but it's pretty darn lean.
ehonda 7y ago
Should try out http://wiby.me http://wiby.me, only light weight websites are allowed on that search engine although the index is comparatively small
dang 7y ago
Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10820445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10820445 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11659026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11659026 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14088092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14088092

49 points by sysoleg 7y ago

As long as general websites load in under a certain time period the sites seem to maximize bloat up to that point. Reminds of the commuting time period—-if more highways are built to reduce traffic and speed up commutes, more people will drive, eventually more will relocate so that the average commute ends up being ~40 minutes again. Whatever tolerance is true for the vast majority of users can often become the standard, and if so then non-vocal small opposing groups are forced to adapt...or just complain.

weare138 7y ago
I understand the point you're making but the difference is increased use of these websites is not what's increasing the size of the sites themselves.
edflsafoiewq 7y ago
Yes, Jevons effect. I read papers about video compression sometimes. Some introductory paragraph about how much of the internet's bandwidth is consumed by video and therefore how much we have to gain from better video compression appears with amusing frequency.

newnewpdro 7y ago

High dpi screens have made this so much worse. Try browsing the web on a 128kbps ISDN-like connection, many sites are too slow to be usable or outright broken due to their own timeouts. What I've noticed is many new sites are using huge high-res images as some kind of maximum-common-denominator to ensure things look great on high dpi screens, while everyone else has to transfer all this junk only to downscale it anyways at render time. I'm often on a slow link and it's made me stop using the web almost entirely, outside of HN and reddit. Slack for instance is completely broken, it can't even manage to finish logging in without giving up. It used to be that slow internet users just had to wait longer, but things largely worked correctly. Nowadays, with lots more javascript and async stuff having web developers programming timeouts and probably never once testing on a slow link, a lot of things are flat out broken.

seanwilson 7y ago
> What I've noticed is many new sites are using huge high-res images as some kind of maximum-common-denominator to ensure things look great on high dpi screens Obviously this is far from good but what's the practical solution for this? As far as I know, doing this with HTML + CSS alone by yourself is tedious and error-prone e.g. figure out manually the maximum size of each image, generate all variations of the image sizes yourself, then use HTML/CSS to load the right ones. There's CDN, web server and CMS specific solutions that dynamically resize + cache images on demand but they're far from common place so I'm not surprised most website owners don't do this well.
- watchdogtimer 7y ago
  Isn't the <srcset> element supposed to solve this problem?
  - seanwilson 7y ago
    How do you generate the image files srcset is meant to load? How many different width and DPI variations do you make? How do you generate the srcset markup to load the right image file? What's your workflow when you want to update an image and change its width?
    - newnewpdro 7y ago
      I presume you're expected to work in the highest dpi, then have a post process stage for publishing the site which then generates the variants for you.
- adventured 7y ago
  The solution was arrived at a long time ago. It looks like this: https://text.npr.org https://text.npr.org Or: https://lite.cnn.io https://lite.cnn.io With better formatting. You make a text only or otherwise very reduced version of your site available to visitors. Ideally in that version you drop the images entirely. You can optionally attempt to measure the capabilities of a visitor, how they're experiencing your site, and actively present them with the reduced option (the far easier thing to do, is to just make a reduced version available and let visitors know it exists somewhere prominent enough). Visitors want the content, not the ridiculous SEO image. If you build for this from the beginning of a site, it's extremely easy to deliver and maintain.

ErikAugust 7y ago

You can trim the fat off articles with https://beta.trimread.com https://beta.trimread.com. Going to open source too.

mc3 7y ago

We had some storms and network outages yesterday. I was down to 3G, it seemed like dialup speeds. Hacker news faithfully loaded after 30 seconds (I think most of that time there was zero connection, so when a few bytes could fly through it loaded up). I couldn't get any other site to load. Not even google.com. It made me want to create a website called "lowbandwidthsites.com" or similar that is itself minimal and just lists the sites that you can load when there is low bandwidth for news etc. A low bandwitdth read-only repeater for sites like reddit.com would be handy. Or maybe a general purpose low bandwidth repeater that can take any site - a bit like outline.com/mysite.com but even lower fidelity - just returns the markdown! Edit looks like it has been done: https://www.textise.net/ https://www.textise.net/

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
Rhode Island?
ObsoleteNerd 7y ago
> It made me want to create a website called "lowbandwidthsites.com" or similar that is itself minimal and just lists the sites that you can load when there is low bandwidth for news etc. It wouldn't even be about "when there is low bandwidth" for me. I'd love to see a network of sites and blogs that stick to minimal/simple design. Maybe a website that consists of a Medium-clone but super lightweight (allowing users to have their own blogs without the bloat), plus a directory of external sites that stick to the same ethos. Throw in a feed showing you new blog posts and directory links (maybe also pull in posts from the external sites via RSS), and that pretty much sounds like heaven to me personally. I hate browsing the modern web. It's like wading through a sewer looking for treasure.
- nkrisc 7y ago
  There's always text.npr.org for news. The home page weighs in at a little over 2kb.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
Reddit in particular has https://i.reddit.com https://i.reddit.com. I don't know that it's quite light enough for a situation where even Google.com is too much, but it's pretty darn lean.

ehonda 7y ago

Should try out http://wiby.me http://wiby.me, only light weight websites are allowed on that search engine although the index is comparatively small

dang 7y ago

Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10820445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10820445 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11659026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11659026 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14088092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14088092