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Doesn't it take months to train new developers in these mystical internal tools? I remember hearing specifically that Google expects 5+ months of training until

by tmpz22 7y ago

Doesn't it take months to train new developers in these mystical internal tools? I remember hearing specifically that Google expects 5+ months of training until a developer is productive. How many companies can afford to spend ~50k+/hire on on-boarding ((100k/yr * 5 months) + benefits)? What is the opportunity cost of holding so many people in training mode for this time period? Different companies have different problems. Big companies need big expensive tools to help with their problems. Little companies usually get by with smaller more portable tools. Let's not use this to demean people at small companies with some false sense of superiority please...

lainga 7y ago
Given the background of the blog's author, I wouldn't hold my breath
- nostrebored 7y ago
  What, a successful engineer with tenure at two of the most successful business operating at scale?
nbm 7y ago
It takes a few hours to learn to use the tools mentioned in the article (and many similar ones) to a level of competence - part of the appeal is how easy they are to use. It takes a few hours to learn how to get new data into and out of them as well. Both are the sort of thing taught in 45 minutes presentations and workshops during the Bootcamp training at FB, and then most people can just explore the rest themselves over time in normal usage. What takes months is feeling like you understand the most important tools and aspects of the environment to be as effective in them as those around you, or to match how you felt in an environment where the scope is smaller. It’s not like you’re sitting in classes for months - you’re doing your job (maybe even more effectively than normal due to the availability of these tools), but every once in a while you’re encountering something where you need to ask someone else or explore or watch a video about how to do something, and that might break your momentum.
bagacrap 7y ago
Tools aside, Google's software systems are extremely complex and understanding them well enough to make effective contributions can take some engineers a long time. I doubt most people take 5 months to get basic proficiency in the average project, though. It's a "fact" that's repeated to take the pressure off new hires.
onion2k 7y ago
Big companies need big expensive tools to help with their problems. Isn't the point that they often don't need those tools? I've lost track of the number of "I replaced Hadoop with Excel!" blog posts I've read.
t-writescode 7y ago
I just changed jobs and I wasn’t expected to be especially useful until about 3 months down the line. There’s always lead time at new companies, why does this upset you?
geofft 7y ago
I'd wager that internal tooling that takes 5+ months to get up to speed on doesn't count as good internal tooling. :) That is, I expect the 5+ months is more how long it takes to find a good project and ramp up on it and deliver something of value while figuring out the social processes, not how long it takes to learn how to use the tools. I would not expect that developers just aren't writing code for their first four months. For instance - I am generally under the impression that Google interns get something done (not necessarily a lot, but they do complete a project) in a 2-4 month internship, and they use the same tools as everyone else.
pjmlp 7y ago
In most European countries you have a probation time from 3 to 6 months, depending on the country, until your permanent contract is considered effective. It is expected that a new employee takes that much to actually be part of company culture.
idclip 7y ago
Its amortised - and well underpaid considering how much rott profit bigCorp makes which is in the Billions which even if you had 50,000 employees and gave each one a 10,000 bonus for that year it wouldn’t dent your bottom line that badly to make you sweatZ Dont under estimate the profitability of a dev. I-make my employer three times as much as he pays to keep me, the industry really misses that. Let them train the juniors, and solve their issues. Its worth it. I think the main issue is fad-tooling. It is annoying and often not needed. Its also a complex issue really... what about saving educational costs ? Say my devs want k8s. Dows my scale allow me to send them to confs, or do we go and shred our monilith? Maybe start a new project? Stuff like that. Its not an easy problem to solve.

by tmpz22 7y ago

lainga 7y ago

Given the background of the blog's author, I wouldn't hold my breath

nostrebored 7y ago
What, a successful engineer with tenure at two of the most successful business operating at scale?

nbm 7y ago

It takes a few hours to learn to use the tools mentioned in the article (and many similar ones) to a level of competence - part of the appeal is how easy they are to use. It takes a few hours to learn how to get new data into and out of them as well. Both are the sort of thing taught in 45 minutes presentations and workshops during the Bootcamp training at FB, and then most people can just explore the rest themselves over time in normal usage. What takes months is feeling like you understand the most important tools and aspects of the environment to be as effective in them as those around you, or to match how you felt in an environment where the scope is smaller. It’s not like you’re sitting in classes for months - you’re doing your job (maybe even more effectively than normal due to the availability of these tools), but every once in a while you’re encountering something where you need to ask someone else or explore or watch a video about how to do something, and that might break your momentum.

bagacrap 7y ago

Tools aside, Google's software systems are extremely complex and understanding them well enough to make effective contributions can take some engineers a long time. I doubt most people take 5 months to get basic proficiency in the average project, though. It's a "fact" that's repeated to take the pressure off new hires.

onion2k 7y ago

Big companies need big expensive tools to help with their problems. Isn't the point that they often don't need those tools? I've lost track of the number of "I replaced Hadoop with Excel!" blog posts I've read.

t-writescode 7y ago

I just changed jobs and I wasn’t expected to be especially useful until about 3 months down the line. There’s always lead time at new companies, why does this upset you?

geofft 7y ago

I'd wager that internal tooling that takes 5+ months to get up to speed on doesn't count as good internal tooling. :) That is, I expect the 5+ months is more how long it takes to find a good project and ramp up on it and deliver something of value while figuring out the social processes, not how long it takes to learn how to use the tools. I would not expect that developers just aren't writing code for their first four months. For instance - I am generally under the impression that Google interns get something done (not necessarily a lot, but they do complete a project) in a 2-4 month internship, and they use the same tools as everyone else.

pjmlp 7y ago

In most European countries you have a probation time from 3 to 6 months, depending on the country, until your permanent contract is considered effective. It is expected that a new employee takes that much to actually be part of company culture.

idclip 7y ago

Its amortised - and well underpaid considering how much rott profit bigCorp makes which is in the Billions which even if you had 50,000 employees and gave each one a 10,000 bonus for that year it wouldn’t dent your bottom line that badly to make you sweatZ Dont under estimate the profitability of a dev. I-make my employer three times as much as he pays to keep me, the industry really misses that. Let them train the juniors, and solve their issues. Its worth it. I think the main issue is fad-tooling. It is annoying and often not needed. Its also a complex issue really... what about saving educational costs ? Say my devs want k8s. Dows my scale allow me to send them to confs, or do we go and shred our monilith? Maybe start a new project? Stuff like that. Its not an easy problem to solve.