7 ms·

I dunno. One has to deal with the random crying, the questions of "Why haven't you baptized your children? I want to spend eternity with my grandbabies!", "Th

I dunno. One has to deal with the random crying, the questions of "Why haven't you baptized your children? I want to spend eternity with my grandbabies!", "They need primary!", etc. Then there's the endless gossip at family activities when you're absent about how you're leading your family to hell.

zigzaggy 7y ago
Wow this sounds eerily familiar as someone who walked away from “nondenominational” fundamentalism years ago. From my wedding, to how I’m raising my kids, to even my daily spiritual life - “we’re praying for you.” Thanks but no thanks. Maybe anyone that walks away from family norms gets this. Maybe the more extreme/rigid the belief is, the stronger the reaction is? It’s been a long time for me, and over time most people have accepted it on some level. Christmas time seems to be the worst... probably why I don’t even like the holidays that much anymore!
umvi 7y ago
Again, how do you know that what you are assuming is "common" isn't just a warped perception due to distillation effects of internet fora? My brother and his wife asked us not to bring up church stuff to them, and like normal humans and family members who respect each other, we obliged. And it's a two way street; when they come visit us we still say prayers for meals and they don't make a bug fuss about it.
- darksaints 7y ago
  And how do you know that your experience is the common one? The exmormon subreddit is an extremely large and active subreddit, with lots of unity in experiences. Its by far the largest known community of ex members of any religion on reddit. If your experience were more common, the exmormon subreddit would probably be as dead as the /r/excatholic subreddit. Now that is a community that really doesn't give a shit if you decide to not show up to church anymore.
  - alanwreath 7y ago
    Mormon's that don't go to church for months at a time are not considered active mormons. I don't know if that's the case for catholics or many religions where much of the focus is on a pastor/bishop giving a sermon. In mormon church's each attendee is called on to do something: give a sermon, teach a class, visit a family, clean the building, etc. There are a lot of things to do. I'd assume that for any organized religion that had the same expectations of it's participants, severing from said religion would be a greater life change than those who just observe.
  - empath75 7y ago
    That’s because most Catholics never go to church anyway. But they certainly do care if you don’t baptize their grandchildren.
    - riffraff 7y ago
      They do, but it's also not uncommon for Catholics to violate any other precept, e.g. divorce. It's a very lax culture, in this age, in the developed world. I have plenty of Catholic friends who decided not to baptize their children, grandparents weren't happy but it's rarely a reason to truncate relationships. Edit: anecdotal evidence, of course, YMMV.
      - tptacek 7y ago
        I don't go to Mass, but there was no question we were going to baptize the kids. In part, that's because the Catholic youth sacraments happen on a pretty well-defined schedule and it's weird (socially) to get them done off that schedule, so baptizing (and First Communion, which both of my kids also did) preserves optionality.
  - jshevek 7y ago
    Ex Mormon subreddit participants self select for those who have ex mormom experiences worth discussing.
    - 7y ago
rayiner 7y ago
Which is fine. Families have the right to criticize each other for how they raise their children and to enforce common norms, where they genuinely believe decisions to be harmful. If my brother was raising my nephews/nieces in a way that I felt was harmful you bet he’d get an earful. Families aren’t just federations of sovereign individuals. Kids are community property.
- sofal 7y ago
  I'm not sure why you think the genuineness of a belief is relevant when it comes to scrutinizing harmful actions based on those beliefs. Lots of people genuinely believe in a lot of harmful things. Some people genuinely believe they need to kick their gay kid out on the street in order for them to learn what's good for them. Some people with great political power genuinely believe that starting an apocalyptic war in the Middle East will usher in the glorious return of their deity. You can genuinely believe that smoking is harmful to unborn children, and you can genuinely believe that leaving the Mormon church will damn your family forever. One of those beliefs is warranted.
  - gremlinsinc 7y ago
    Kicking a gay kid out would be a reward compared to those conversion camp things that are so horrible... at least on their own they don't have to put up w/ the parent's abuse, neglect etc... they should though be required to pay the kid child support until they're 25, to make up for being an asshole parent.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    > I'm not sure why you think the genuineness of a belief is relevant when it comes to scrutinizing harmful actions based on those beliefs. Because the substantive truth of the theology isn’t dispositive of whether family members have a right (in the social, not legal, sense) to criticize each other from departing from certain norms and practices. For example, there is a lot of evidence showing that the supposed harms of moderate drinking during pregnancy are overstated, and the benefits of breast feeding are overstated. The effect of screen time on kids is also overstated. Just because someone might conclude that advice is wrong, does that mean family members are out of bounds for giving that advice? Or that people shouldn’t have to graciously accept it? There are boundaries, sure, but family members are entitled to express their views on how each other live their lives. Beyond that, there are objective benefits to religion apart from the truth or falsity of the theological doctrine. Studies show that actively religious people tend to be significantly happier and more socially involved: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religio.... Is that a sufficient basis for family members to encourage each other to raise their kids within the community religion, irrespective of the truth of the theology? Also, there are non-falsifiable moral judgments that are independent of but associated with religion. Secular US culture emphasizes individualism, self expression, and personal fulfillment. Many believe that kids should be raised with a strong sense of duty to family, and the expectation that their purpose in life is to work hard and raise families of their own. These ideas are independent of theological truth. Many non-religious people believe these things too. But if you think it’s important for kids to be consistently exposed to those ideas, you’ll find that most of the people who have those beliefs just happen to be either religious (or Asian, or both). Is it out of line for communities to encourage their members to conform to values that they believe are more conducive to a better world? Whether the underlying theology is true or false doesn’t change the answer.
caymanjim 7y ago
> I dunno. One has to deal with the random crying, the questions of "Why haven't you baptized your children? I want to spend eternity with my grandbabies!", "They need primary!", etc. Then there's the endless gossip at family activities when you're absent about how you're leading your family to hell. This is every family, with slight variation.
- dmix 7y ago
  Yes, this doesn't sound very far from my grandparents who were catholic who loved bringing that stuff up randomly. Maybe it's harsher and more serious. We were able to just ignore them and "that's just the way they are" type thing.

zigzaggy 7y ago

Wow this sounds eerily familiar as someone who walked away from “nondenominational” fundamentalism years ago. From my wedding, to how I’m raising my kids, to even my daily spiritual life - “we’re praying for you.” Thanks but no thanks. Maybe anyone that walks away from family norms gets this. Maybe the more extreme/rigid the belief is, the stronger the reaction is? It’s been a long time for me, and over time most people have accepted it on some level. Christmas time seems to be the worst... probably why I don’t even like the holidays that much anymore!

umvi 7y ago

Again, how do you know that what you are assuming is "common" isn't just a warped perception due to distillation effects of internet fora? My brother and his wife asked us not to bring up church stuff to them, and like normal humans and family members who respect each other, we obliged. And it's a two way street; when they come visit us we still say prayers for meals and they don't make a bug fuss about it.

darksaints 7y ago
And how do you know that your experience is the common one? The exmormon subreddit is an extremely large and active subreddit, with lots of unity in experiences. Its by far the largest known community of ex members of any religion on reddit. If your experience were more common, the exmormon subreddit would probably be as dead as the /r/excatholic subreddit. Now that is a community that really doesn't give a shit if you decide to not show up to church anymore.
- alanwreath 7y ago
  Mormon's that don't go to church for months at a time are not considered active mormons. I don't know if that's the case for catholics or many religions where much of the focus is on a pastor/bishop giving a sermon. In mormon church's each attendee is called on to do something: give a sermon, teach a class, visit a family, clean the building, etc. There are a lot of things to do. I'd assume that for any organized religion that had the same expectations of it's participants, severing from said religion would be a greater life change than those who just observe.
- empath75 7y ago
  That’s because most Catholics never go to church anyway. But they certainly do care if you don’t baptize their grandchildren.
  - riffraff 7y ago
    They do, but it's also not uncommon for Catholics to violate any other precept, e.g. divorce. It's a very lax culture, in this age, in the developed world. I have plenty of Catholic friends who decided not to baptize their children, grandparents weren't happy but it's rarely a reason to truncate relationships. Edit: anecdotal evidence, of course, YMMV.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      I don't go to Mass, but there was no question we were going to baptize the kids. In part, that's because the Catholic youth sacraments happen on a pretty well-defined schedule and it's weird (socially) to get them done off that schedule, so baptizing (and First Communion, which both of my kids also did) preserves optionality.
- jshevek 7y ago
  Ex Mormon subreddit participants self select for those who have ex mormom experiences worth discussing.
  - 7y ago

rayiner 7y ago

Which is fine. Families have the right to criticize each other for how they raise their children and to enforce common norms, where they genuinely believe decisions to be harmful. If my brother was raising my nephews/nieces in a way that I felt was harmful you bet he’d get an earful. Families aren’t just federations of sovereign individuals. Kids are community property.

sofal 7y ago
I'm not sure why you think the genuineness of a belief is relevant when it comes to scrutinizing harmful actions based on those beliefs. Lots of people genuinely believe in a lot of harmful things. Some people genuinely believe they need to kick their gay kid out on the street in order for them to learn what's good for them. Some people with great political power genuinely believe that starting an apocalyptic war in the Middle East will usher in the glorious return of their deity. You can genuinely believe that smoking is harmful to unborn children, and you can genuinely believe that leaving the Mormon church will damn your family forever. One of those beliefs is warranted.
- gremlinsinc 7y ago
  Kicking a gay kid out would be a reward compared to those conversion camp things that are so horrible... at least on their own they don't have to put up w/ the parent's abuse, neglect etc... they should though be required to pay the kid child support until they're 25, to make up for being an asshole parent.
- rayiner 7y ago
  > I'm not sure why you think the genuineness of a belief is relevant when it comes to scrutinizing harmful actions based on those beliefs. Because the substantive truth of the theology isn’t dispositive of whether family members have a right (in the social, not legal, sense) to criticize each other from departing from certain norms and practices. For example, there is a lot of evidence showing that the supposed harms of moderate drinking during pregnancy are overstated, and the benefits of breast feeding are overstated. The effect of screen time on kids is also overstated. Just because someone might conclude that advice is wrong, does that mean family members are out of bounds for giving that advice? Or that people shouldn’t have to graciously accept it? There are boundaries, sure, but family members are entitled to express their views on how each other live their lives. Beyond that, there are objective benefits to religion apart from the truth or falsity of the theological doctrine. Studies show that actively religious people tend to be significantly happier and more socially involved: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religious-people-happier-healthier-our-new-global-study-explores-this-question https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/31/are-religio.... Is that a sufficient basis for family members to encourage each other to raise their kids within the community religion, irrespective of the truth of the theology? Also, there are non-falsifiable moral judgments that are independent of but associated with religion. Secular US culture emphasizes individualism, self expression, and personal fulfillment. Many believe that kids should be raised with a strong sense of duty to family, and the expectation that their purpose in life is to work hard and raise families of their own. These ideas are independent of theological truth. Many non-religious people believe these things too. But if you think it’s important for kids to be consistently exposed to those ideas, you’ll find that most of the people who have those beliefs just happen to be either religious (or Asian, or both). Is it out of line for communities to encourage their members to conform to values that they believe are more conducive to a better world? Whether the underlying theology is true or false doesn’t change the answer.

caymanjim 7y ago

> I dunno. One has to deal with the random crying, the questions of "Why haven't you baptized your children? I want to spend eternity with my grandbabies!", "They need primary!", etc. Then there's the endless gossip at family activities when you're absent about how you're leading your family to hell. This is every family, with slight variation.

dmix 7y ago
Yes, this doesn't sound very far from my grandparents who were catholic who loved bringing that stuff up randomly. Maybe it's harsher and more serious. We were able to just ignore them and "that's just the way they are" type thing.