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The article touches on the answer, briefly, about halfway down: The Surf Industry isn't about Surfing. Most of the things that the big Surf brands make are not

The article touches on the answer, briefly, about halfway down: The Surf Industry isn't about Surfing. Most of the things that the big Surf brands make are not useful for the actual act of Surfing. Even boardshorts from the major boardshort companies, about half their range can't be worn surfing. They're made from non-stretch fabric and intended to be worn around on the street. Google up a "surf shop" in a big coastal town, pick the biggest, most obvious one, and chances are you wouldn't be able to equip yourself to go surfing with the things you can buy there. It'll be wall to wall boardshorts and hoodies, with a hundred pairs of sunglasses along the wall and maybe half a dozen shiny new boards stood up in a corner for decorative purposes. Observe the looks the staff will give each other if you try to ring one of those up. If you want to go surfing, you need to find the little hole-in-the wall shop off the beach a ways, which will be stuffed full of wetsuits and boards, to the point where you can hardly walk around without knocking half the store down. They'll also have a few hundred pairs of boardshorts there, but surprisingly these ones will all have stretchy fabric and crotches that don't tear apart if you sink to your knees. The Big Surf Brands know that most of their business comes from selling sunglasses and flip flops to people who want to look like surfers. And they're doing fine.

toyg 7y ago
Uh they are not doing fine, hence the issues at Hurley apparently, and the fact that all those brands have crashed in value. This is more the classic “brand X is now bloated and failing because it forgot its roots when going mainstream” argument. Nothing to do with capitalism (author was a bit confused there, or clutching at straws), everything to do with losing view of your core values and value proposition.
- ptah 7y ago
  author's point is that capitalist values is at odds with the core values and value proposition that these brands had at their genesis
  - sooheon 7y ago
    Capitalism is kind of like evolution, you can't argue against it by giving the example of a poorly run company going extinct. That's capitalism at work.
    - Retric 7y ago
      Note quite. It’s easy to argue that making say very high quality chocolate and capitalism are at odds because it’s more profitable to make slightly worse chocolate in larger quantities. It’s not a question of any one company when market forces push companies in a different direction. Further, stability is not necessarily an overriding goal. A 50% shot at 100m is generally preferred over a 100k/year lifestyle business. PS: I don’t think this is even a downside of capitalism. More people enjoy a Micdonads hamburger in a day than eat at a given 5 star restaurant in a year.
      - lurquer 7y ago
        You are confusing revenue with profit. The profit margin for a high-end chocolate is higher than a snickers bar's.
        PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
        Making 20% on sales of $100k nets you $20k. Making 5% on sales of $1M nets you $50k. So in that scenario, do you prefer profit or revenue? Revenue and Profit are intimately intertwined, with their cousin Cost riding shotgun.
        edmundsauto 7y ago
        It depends on what other options you have for investing the $900k. The grandfather's ghost of opportunity cost is always watching...
        Retric 7y ago
- cafard 7y ago
  When Eddie Bauer declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy, I was amused to see the New York Times describe it as an "outdoorsy" brand. Well, in those days you could be an Eddie Bauer branded sports ute.
  - turk73 7y ago
    I have some Eddie Bauer oxford shirts, but yeah, it was by and large a preppy, sorta get the outdoorsy "look" kind of mall store, not the real deal "hell and back" type of gear you would actually want. Aren't most things like this? It's getting so that I have to buy online for solid gear for downhill skiing, for example. Even Sports Authority, who is not long gone, had only a so-so selection of skis and boots, mostly arranged around the needs of beginners. The store they had in Summit County was quite different, but that was the only one like that.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Eddie Bauer, once, a long, long, long time ago, was an actual outdoor-gear supplier. At least that's what it began as in the 1920s. It was Bauer down parkas that the first American summitting Everest in 1963 wore. By the 1980s the line was better suited to arduous treks across a muddy quad to the campus coffeehouse, though outerwear garments from that era may remain serviceable. Today any modest muscular development simply exceeds the tailoring tolerances of upper or lower-body garments. The "brand" still trades, or tries to, off its century-old origin story. That is an absolute lie.
- dls2016 7y ago
  > This is more the classic “brand X is now bloated and failing because it forgot its roots when going mainstream” argument. Nothing to do with capitalism I'm not sure I'd say nothing to do with capitalism. Underneath many of these "bloated" brands you find the same pattern. A niche or well-respected brand purchased by a private equity firm. They proceed to hollow out the brand (move production, cut warranties and customer support, etc.) while simultaneously playing financial tricks to extract money (saddle the company with debt/management fees). This pattern may or may not be one unique to capitalism, but it's surely one which occurs frequently in the US implementation.
lowdose 7y ago
It's a cult, some say these "surfers" are the hipsters of the 90's.
- monk_e_boy 7y ago
  Maybe not cult, but 'trendy' for sure. It was skateboarding, windsurfing, surfing etc .... trends come and go.
  - nradov 7y ago
    In the US windsurfing never really crossed over into a mainstream casual fashion trend. Snowboarding did though.
pelasaco 7y ago
As much as the Soccer industry isn't about Soccer and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu industry isn't about Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Every industry is about money.
brudgers 7y ago
There aren't enough surfers in the world to support the needs of capital at the scale of Wall Street. There aren't enough surfers because it's hard to partake in surfing and partaking involves being cold and wet and many mouthfuls of salt water. Regularly partaking means living somewhere with good surf. That's not most of the world. Regularly partaking means having a lifestyle that affords time for surfing. That's not most lifestyles. Surfing is and has always been mostly aspirational.
Causality1 7y ago
This is identical to every other "hobby as culture". For example, hunting and the cornucopia of camo-patterned clothes and random objects. Camo easy chairs. Pink deer bumper stickers.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  Country-western and cowboy culture also come to mind.
LeifCarrotson 7y ago
It's more nefarious and subtle than that. The trick is that you first get popular among actual surfers. That's a tiny population, the population doesn't like to spend money, it takes expensive R&D, expensive materials, difficult manual assembly for the abusive and difficult environment: not a lot of profit or market cap there. But the dark pattern that the 'surf industry' have discovered and exploited, is that you then silently pivot to the market of people who wished they looked cool like surfers. That's a much bigger population, they have more money, and they don't care about the materials or performance of the gear. Starting out as an actual surf business is optional, but encouraged, as it will help you market the story that you make cool surf gear. Skip that step if people will come into your department store anyways, just make the logo look similar to a prominent manufacturer. Similar tactics can be employed effectively in selling just about anything: SUVs and sports cars, ski gear, health food, artistic furniture...
- merpnderp 7y ago
  How is this a dark pattern? The people buying the goods are happy with the exchange, and it's not like they don't know they're posers buying into the culture.
  - cactus2093 7y ago
    Even that is a little harsh. Board shorts work just fine in the pool or hot tub or anywhere else you might go swimming. They're comfortable and fast drying and come in all kinds of colors and designs. Just because they were initially created for one purpose and people have realized they have a wider use, I don't see why that makes you a poser if you wear them. It just seems like a perfectly normal way that clothing trends evolve. Are you a poser if you wear Northface or Patagonia gear in the city, since it's made for roughing it in the outdoors?
    - jchallis 7y ago
      I tend to take these brands at face value. If North Face tells me their gear is for adventurers climbing K2, I'm certainly not going to wear that to the office. For many years Apple presented it as the purview of the cool and creative - as I'm neither, I assumed their products were for someone else.
Reedx 7y ago
Steve Jobs on Nike: "But the best example of all and one of the greatest jobs of marketing that the universe has ever seen is Nike. Remember, Nike sells a commodity. They sell shoes! And yet when you think of Nike you feel something different than a shoe company. In their ads, as you know, they don’t ever talk about the product, they don’t ever tell you about their air soles and why they're better than Reebok’s air soles. What is Nike doing in their advertising? They honor great athletes and they honor great athletics. That’s who they are, that’s what they are about." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz1_tOXfSeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz1_tOXfSeM
- drcross 7y ago
  Jobs did great things but the halo effect on this website gets too much. Theres nothing profound or even really interesting in that quote. It's the stuff you'd hear in a primer marketing class.
kagenouta 7y ago
So you're saying, then, that it's some sort of cowabunga lifestyle?
euroclydon 7y ago
Weird that non-surfers don't want clothes with a comfortable range of motion. I buy pants from REI just to be comfortable while sitting at my desk writing code.
- aportela 7y ago
  hello! not actually replying to this comment - was just trying to figure out a way to get in touch with you! I just moved to Durham from NYC for work, and was looking through HN to see if there were any ongoing meetups, etc. in the area. Saw your post about an RTP meetup (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6754755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6754755), any luck getting this started? Even if not, would love any tips you might have for meeting new people / getting involved in the tech community around here. Or even meeting up in person just to chat! Thank you - hope you have a wonderful weekend
  - euroclydon 7y ago
    Howdy, It's funny, I'm actually the worst person to ask about Raleigh meetups. My interest is more in finding excuses to never actually go to a meetup. If you need help there, I'm your man.
  - aportela 7y ago
    not sure how I can send you my contact info without it being public - but if you see this, let me know and we can figure it out!
dredmorbius 7y ago
That's an excellent articulation of the Tyranny of the Minimum Viable User, but in wetwear rather than software or hardware. https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/69wk8y/the_tyranny_of_the_minimum_viable_user/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/69wk8y/the_tyr...

toyg 7y ago

Uh they are not doing fine, hence the issues at Hurley apparently, and the fact that all those brands have crashed in value. This is more the classic “brand X is now bloated and failing because it forgot its roots when going mainstream” argument. Nothing to do with capitalism (author was a bit confused there, or clutching at straws), everything to do with losing view of your core values and value proposition.

ptah 7y ago
author's point is that capitalist values is at odds with the core values and value proposition that these brands had at their genesis
- sooheon 7y ago
  Capitalism is kind of like evolution, you can't argue against it by giving the example of a poorly run company going extinct. That's capitalism at work.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Note quite. It’s easy to argue that making say very high quality chocolate and capitalism are at odds because it’s more profitable to make slightly worse chocolate in larger quantities. It’s not a question of any one company when market forces push companies in a different direction. Further, stability is not necessarily an overriding goal. A 50% shot at 100m is generally preferred over a 100k/year lifestyle business. PS: I don’t think this is even a downside of capitalism. More people enjoy a Micdonads hamburger in a day than eat at a given 5 star restaurant in a year.
    - lurquer 7y ago
      You are confusing revenue with profit. The profit margin for a high-end chocolate is higher than a snickers bar's.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 7y ago
        Making 20% on sales of $100k nets you $20k. Making 5% on sales of $1M nets you $50k. So in that scenario, do you prefer profit or revenue? Revenue and Profit are intimately intertwined, with their cousin Cost riding shotgun.
        edmundsauto 7y ago
        It depends on what other options you have for investing the $900k. The grandfather's ghost of opportunity cost is always watching...
        Retric 7y ago
cafard 7y ago
When Eddie Bauer declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy, I was amused to see the New York Times describe it as an "outdoorsy" brand. Well, in those days you could be an Eddie Bauer branded sports ute.
- turk73 7y ago
  I have some Eddie Bauer oxford shirts, but yeah, it was by and large a preppy, sorta get the outdoorsy "look" kind of mall store, not the real deal "hell and back" type of gear you would actually want. Aren't most things like this? It's getting so that I have to buy online for solid gear for downhill skiing, for example. Even Sports Authority, who is not long gone, had only a so-so selection of skis and boots, mostly arranged around the needs of beginners. The store they had in Summit County was quite different, but that was the only one like that.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Eddie Bauer, once, a long, long, long time ago, was an actual outdoor-gear supplier. At least that's what it began as in the 1920s. It was Bauer down parkas that the first American summitting Everest in 1963 wore. By the 1980s the line was better suited to arduous treks across a muddy quad to the campus coffeehouse, though outerwear garments from that era may remain serviceable. Today any modest muscular development simply exceeds the tailoring tolerances of upper or lower-body garments. The "brand" still trades, or tries to, off its century-old origin story. That is an absolute lie.
dls2016 7y ago
> This is more the classic “brand X is now bloated and failing because it forgot its roots when going mainstream” argument. Nothing to do with capitalism I'm not sure I'd say nothing to do with capitalism. Underneath many of these "bloated" brands you find the same pattern. A niche or well-respected brand purchased by a private equity firm. They proceed to hollow out the brand (move production, cut warranties and customer support, etc.) while simultaneously playing financial tricks to extract money (saddle the company with debt/management fees). This pattern may or may not be one unique to capitalism, but it's surely one which occurs frequently in the US implementation.

lowdose 7y ago

It's a cult, some say these "surfers" are the hipsters of the 90's.

monk_e_boy 7y ago
Maybe not cult, but 'trendy' for sure. It was skateboarding, windsurfing, surfing etc .... trends come and go.
- nradov 7y ago
  In the US windsurfing never really crossed over into a mainstream casual fashion trend. Snowboarding did though.

pelasaco 7y ago

As much as the Soccer industry isn't about Soccer and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu industry isn't about Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Every industry is about money.

brudgers 7y ago

There aren't enough surfers in the world to support the needs of capital at the scale of Wall Street. There aren't enough surfers because it's hard to partake in surfing and partaking involves being cold and wet and many mouthfuls of salt water. Regularly partaking means living somewhere with good surf. That's not most of the world. Regularly partaking means having a lifestyle that affords time for surfing. That's not most lifestyles. Surfing is and has always been mostly aspirational.

Causality1 7y ago

This is identical to every other "hobby as culture". For example, hunting and the cornucopia of camo-patterned clothes and random objects. Camo easy chairs. Pink deer bumper stickers.

Apocryphon 7y ago
Country-western and cowboy culture also come to mind.

LeifCarrotson 7y ago

It's more nefarious and subtle than that. The trick is that you first get popular among actual surfers. That's a tiny population, the population doesn't like to spend money, it takes expensive R&D, expensive materials, difficult manual assembly for the abusive and difficult environment: not a lot of profit or market cap there. But the dark pattern that the 'surf industry' have discovered and exploited, is that you then silently pivot to the market of people who wished they looked cool like surfers. That's a much bigger population, they have more money, and they don't care about the materials or performance of the gear. Starting out as an actual surf business is optional, but encouraged, as it will help you market the story that you make cool surf gear. Skip that step if people will come into your department store anyways, just make the logo look similar to a prominent manufacturer. Similar tactics can be employed effectively in selling just about anything: SUVs and sports cars, ski gear, health food, artistic furniture...

merpnderp 7y ago
How is this a dark pattern? The people buying the goods are happy with the exchange, and it's not like they don't know they're posers buying into the culture.
- cactus2093 7y ago
  Even that is a little harsh. Board shorts work just fine in the pool or hot tub or anywhere else you might go swimming. They're comfortable and fast drying and come in all kinds of colors and designs. Just because they were initially created for one purpose and people have realized they have a wider use, I don't see why that makes you a poser if you wear them. It just seems like a perfectly normal way that clothing trends evolve. Are you a poser if you wear Northface or Patagonia gear in the city, since it's made for roughing it in the outdoors?
  - jchallis 7y ago
    I tend to take these brands at face value. If North Face tells me their gear is for adventurers climbing K2, I'm certainly not going to wear that to the office. For many years Apple presented it as the purview of the cool and creative - as I'm neither, I assumed their products were for someone else.

Reedx 7y ago

Steve Jobs on Nike: "But the best example of all and one of the greatest jobs of marketing that the universe has ever seen is Nike. Remember, Nike sells a commodity. They sell shoes! And yet when you think of Nike you feel something different than a shoe company. In their ads, as you know, they don’t ever talk about the product, they don’t ever tell you about their air soles and why they're better than Reebok’s air soles. What is Nike doing in their advertising? They honor great athletes and they honor great athletics. That’s who they are, that’s what they are about." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz1_tOXfSeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz1_tOXfSeM

drcross 7y ago
Jobs did great things but the halo effect on this website gets too much. Theres nothing profound or even really interesting in that quote. It's the stuff you'd hear in a primer marketing class.

kagenouta 7y ago

So you're saying, then, that it's some sort of cowabunga lifestyle?

euroclydon 7y ago

Weird that non-surfers don't want clothes with a comfortable range of motion. I buy pants from REI just to be comfortable while sitting at my desk writing code.

aportela 7y ago
hello! not actually replying to this comment - was just trying to figure out a way to get in touch with you! I just moved to Durham from NYC for work, and was looking through HN to see if there were any ongoing meetups, etc. in the area. Saw your post about an RTP meetup (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6754755 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6754755), any luck getting this started? Even if not, would love any tips you might have for meeting new people / getting involved in the tech community around here. Or even meeting up in person just to chat! Thank you - hope you have a wonderful weekend
- euroclydon 7y ago
  Howdy, It's funny, I'm actually the worst person to ask about Raleigh meetups. My interest is more in finding excuses to never actually go to a meetup. If you need help there, I'm your man.
- aportela 7y ago
  not sure how I can send you my contact info without it being public - but if you see this, let me know and we can figure it out!

dredmorbius 7y ago

That's an excellent articulation of the Tyranny of the Minimum Viable User, but in wetwear rather than software or hardware. https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/69wk8y/the_tyranny_of_the_minimum_viable_user/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/69wk8y/the_tyr...