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Autopilot must be a really high-margin feature for Tesla. $7k for basically a remotely-managed software license the end-user has no real control over. Once the

Autopilot must be a really high-margin feature for Tesla. $7k for basically a remotely-managed software license the end-user has no real control over. Once the costs of development, maintenance, and labor are recouped, then each successive AP activation is a big extra margin for Tesla over the normal vehicle price. The entire "Autopilot" feature is technical ability driven by marketing to pump more money out of their car sales. Good business for Tesla, but a shitty thing to do to consumers to treat autopilot as an owner-dependent feature and not as a feature that could be handed off. That's one of the biggest negatives to having cars that can innately phone home to the manufacturer - it gives Tesla the power to giveth and taketh away at their discretion, and leave the car and consumer S.O.L.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
> That's one of the biggest negatives to having cars that can innately phone home to the manufacturer Versus buying a dumb car and never getting upgrades? I'll take the "risk" to get sentry/dog/camping mode as free updates vs having to buy a new car every time I want a new feature.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  I can really live without updating my car. Last year I used an electric company car to drive home. Or at least that was the plan. After half of the way a warning light flashed up and the display told me to stop the car as soon as possible. That I did. It completely shut down after stopping. Nothing worked anymore besides warning lights, otherwise it was completely dead. Had to leave the car behind and walk home (short trip, I was just lazy because winter). Next day in the morning I tried to start it up and it actually worked again. The display just shortly displayed 'update complete'. Made me laugh. I believe the error was related to the battery being low while it was really cold outside and the update notification was unrelated. But I guess you could call that "camping mode". Still left me with an appreciation for my old car, which is too old and stupid to receive updates and is really dependable without me treating it that well.
  - ianai 7y ago
    That sounds like a real life nightmare to me. I have to be able to depend on my transportation. It’s going to be excessively costly and stressful for me to rely on someone else in that case. Completely unacceptable behavior from a car.
  - greendestiny_re 7y ago
    "Had to leave the car behind and walk home" Funny anecdote but imagine someone with mobility issues getting stuck in the same situation.
- joshuaissac 7y ago
  In this case, though, the "upgrade" was the loss of a core feature. The chance of winning camping mode is not worth the risk of losing autopilot, for most people.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    The guy didn't pay for autopilot...
    - TheGrumpyBrit 7y ago
      He purchased a car which was advertised as including autopilot. That sounds a lot like paying for autopilot to me.
- huffmsa 7y ago
  Dumb cars are nice. My car is so dumb that I can start it without a battery, so long as I have a sufficiently steep hill or a few people to push it. My car is so dumb that it doesn't brick itself when I change the suspension or put a bigger turbo on it. Though it might send a piston into orbit. You don't need to be nannied by your car. Further, it takes a naive level of trust to be okay with an "essential", non-subscription item depending on the benevolent existence of a 3rd party. Be it vehicles, machinery, firearms, combine harvesters or front door lock.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Even if you can start it without a battery in there please don't. The battery keeps the voltage down and without it - even if it is otherwise empty or unusable - you could easily damage the electronics in your car.
    - huffmsa 7y ago
      Yes, but if it's a choice between getting my car started and having to redo the electronics (which I can do with 3rd party parts, as I please) or getting stranded on the highway, I am happy to have the ability to choose.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        Sure, but it is just about leaving it connected. Your car will jump start fine like that anyway. I take it you don't lose your battery on the highway :)
kjksf 7y ago
> the end-user has no real control over End user has the same control as over any feature of the car. If you buy Tesla and then buy FSD and then sell that car to someone else, FSD stays with the car. It would be absurd if it worked any other way. In this case, the car was sold back to Tesla, a dealer bought it from Tesla and sold it to someone. Tesla determined that the car was configured with FSD even though the user never paid for it. Now it's a he said / she said situation. The user got screwed because he lost FSD that he thought he had. The question is: was he screwed by the dealer (who mis-represented availability of FSD) or was he screwed by Tesla (who mis-represented availability of FSD to the dealer). Or maybe the dealer misunderstood. Either way, this should be straightforward to resolve. The buyer should be made whole by the dealer, because dealer sold the car. The dealer should be made whole by Tesla (if Tesla indeed misrepresented the car). All parties have relevant documents so it should be clear who's responsible for what.
- cowsandmilk 7y ago
  > End user has the same control as over any feature of the car. If you buy Tesla and then buy FSD and then sell that car to someone else, FSD stays with the car. It would be absurd if it worked any other way. People are having FSD disappear from their cars and having to produce invoices showing they bought it in order to have it restored. How do you do that when you bought it used? https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lost-fsd-earlier-this-week.156259/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lost-fsd-earlier-thi...
- gumby 7y ago
  You have misinterpreted what the article documents: > In this case, the car was sold back to Tesla, a dealer bought it from Tesla and sold it to someone. Tesla determined that the car was configured with FSD even though the user never paid for it. The dealer purchased the car from the manufacturer and the window sticker (required by law to be provided by the manufacturer to prevent dealer fraud) listed the “FSD” feature as included with the device. The purchaser bought it with the understanding that that list of features was correct. The dealer had no say in the matter either way. You don’t have to take my word for this: the Monroney sticker is actually in the linked article. Legally this is unambiguously fraud by the manufacturer.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago

> That's one of the biggest negatives to having cars that can innately phone home to the manufacturer Versus buying a dumb car and never getting upgrades? I'll take the "risk" to get sentry/dog/camping mode as free updates vs having to buy a new car every time I want a new feature.

raxxorrax 7y ago
I can really live without updating my car. Last year I used an electric company car to drive home. Or at least that was the plan. After half of the way a warning light flashed up and the display told me to stop the car as soon as possible. That I did. It completely shut down after stopping. Nothing worked anymore besides warning lights, otherwise it was completely dead. Had to leave the car behind and walk home (short trip, I was just lazy because winter). Next day in the morning I tried to start it up and it actually worked again. The display just shortly displayed 'update complete'. Made me laugh. I believe the error was related to the battery being low while it was really cold outside and the update notification was unrelated. But I guess you could call that "camping mode". Still left me with an appreciation for my old car, which is too old and stupid to receive updates and is really dependable without me treating it that well.
- ianai 7y ago
  That sounds like a real life nightmare to me. I have to be able to depend on my transportation. It’s going to be excessively costly and stressful for me to rely on someone else in that case. Completely unacceptable behavior from a car.
- greendestiny_re 7y ago
  "Had to leave the car behind and walk home" Funny anecdote but imagine someone with mobility issues getting stuck in the same situation.
joshuaissac 7y ago
In this case, though, the "upgrade" was the loss of a core feature. The chance of winning camping mode is not worth the risk of losing autopilot, for most people.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  The guy didn't pay for autopilot...
  - TheGrumpyBrit 7y ago
    He purchased a car which was advertised as including autopilot. That sounds a lot like paying for autopilot to me.
huffmsa 7y ago
Dumb cars are nice. My car is so dumb that I can start it without a battery, so long as I have a sufficiently steep hill or a few people to push it. My car is so dumb that it doesn't brick itself when I change the suspension or put a bigger turbo on it. Though it might send a piston into orbit. You don't need to be nannied by your car. Further, it takes a naive level of trust to be okay with an "essential", non-subscription item depending on the benevolent existence of a 3rd party. Be it vehicles, machinery, firearms, combine harvesters or front door lock.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Even if you can start it without a battery in there please don't. The battery keeps the voltage down and without it - even if it is otherwise empty or unusable - you could easily damage the electronics in your car.
  - huffmsa 7y ago
    Yes, but if it's a choice between getting my car started and having to redo the electronics (which I can do with 3rd party parts, as I please) or getting stranded on the highway, I am happy to have the ability to choose.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      Sure, but it is just about leaving it connected. Your car will jump start fine like that anyway. I take it you don't lose your battery on the highway :)

kjksf 7y ago

> the end-user has no real control over End user has the same control as over any feature of the car. If you buy Tesla and then buy FSD and then sell that car to someone else, FSD stays with the car. It would be absurd if it worked any other way. In this case, the car was sold back to Tesla, a dealer bought it from Tesla and sold it to someone. Tesla determined that the car was configured with FSD even though the user never paid for it. Now it's a he said / she said situation. The user got screwed because he lost FSD that he thought he had. The question is: was he screwed by the dealer (who mis-represented availability of FSD) or was he screwed by Tesla (who mis-represented availability of FSD to the dealer). Or maybe the dealer misunderstood. Either way, this should be straightforward to resolve. The buyer should be made whole by the dealer, because dealer sold the car. The dealer should be made whole by Tesla (if Tesla indeed misrepresented the car). All parties have relevant documents so it should be clear who's responsible for what.

cowsandmilk 7y ago
> End user has the same control as over any feature of the car. If you buy Tesla and then buy FSD and then sell that car to someone else, FSD stays with the car. It would be absurd if it worked any other way. People are having FSD disappear from their cars and having to produce invoices showing they bought it in order to have it restored. How do you do that when you bought it used? https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lost-fsd-earlier-this-week.156259/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lost-fsd-earlier-thi...
gumby 7y ago
You have misinterpreted what the article documents: > In this case, the car was sold back to Tesla, a dealer bought it from Tesla and sold it to someone. Tesla determined that the car was configured with FSD even though the user never paid for it. The dealer purchased the car from the manufacturer and the window sticker (required by law to be provided by the manufacturer to prevent dealer fraud) listed the “FSD” feature as included with the device. The purchaser bought it with the understanding that that list of features was correct. The dealer had no say in the matter either way. You don’t have to take my word for this: the Monroney sticker is actually in the linked article. Legally this is unambiguously fraud by the manufacturer.