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Apple’s independent repair program is invasive to shops and their customers

benologist 7y ago
Restricting third-party repairs, lobbying against the right to repair, and forcing up the cost to repair must do wonders for their trade-in program.
neuralRiot 7y ago
Apple clearly doesn’t want this to happen, they only want to be able to say they’re making progress in the right to repair issue. I used to have a shop for professional audio and was an authorized repair center for many top brands, never heard of such BS as Apple is asking, I had to repair the warranties for a flat rate (they would send the needed parts) the benefit for the shop was the out of warranty repairs and the availability of parts and info, we had inspections too but they were just to verify that the shop and personnel was up to the quality of the products.
Terretta 7y ago
Much of this is far less sinister if you think who most likely gets held accountable for a battery explosion. With 2 billion iPhones sold and 750 million in use, anything that can be done wrong, will be done wrong, somewhere — and the easiest proximate party to blame gets blamed. Changes the risk reward calculus.
- mqus 7y ago
  Apple doesnt need third parties to create issues with their products, they create enough on their own without acknowledging them and it doesnt seem to have damaged them all that much. I also dont think that issues caused by third party repairs will: - cause consumers/media to point their fingers at apple first and foremost - become widespread enough to actually be influencing apples image. Even if they do, I imagine that such issues will likely be caused indirectly by apple anyway, be it bad design decisions or abysmal availability of parts&schematics
- JohnFen 7y ago
  Nope, it's still very, very sinister. If a repair shop does something so incompetent that they cause a battery explosion (extremely unlikely, but let's go with it), then the repair shop will be held accountable, not Apple. Apple's worst case is that they'll have to push back on bad news reporting. That's not a huge burden. The reason Apple does this is solely because they make a ton of money doing this. Apple stance here is harmful to literally everyone else, whether they use Apple products or not. Apple is being a straight-up villain on this issue.
  - t-writescode 7y ago
    I attempted a battery repair myself, personally. No repair shop to blame required! Some people would blame Apple for home repairs
    - webmobdev 7y ago
      > Some people would blame Apple for home repairs And they would be justified in doing so!
    - II2II 7y ago
      Perhaps they should be. Even rechargeable batteries are consumables in the sense that they have a limited lifespan. When considering the lifespan of the product as a whole, there is a reasonable expectation that the battery will need to be replaced. I would suggest that the proper replacement battery should be available to the consumer and the replacement process simplified to enable self-servicing. This scenario is quite different from design or manufacturing defects, where is is reasonable to expect the manufacturer (or a competent technician) to handle the repair. It is also quite different from abuse, where the user may inflict damage to virtually any component.
  - briandear 7y ago
    > then the repair shop will be held accountable, not Apple How much experience do you have with plaintiff law? In a product liability lawsuit, everyone gets sued all the way up and down the supply chain. And these aren’t cheap lawsuits, powerful and dee pocketed plaintiffs attorneys take these cases on contingency, especially against an ultra deep pocketed Apple. Third party liability would absolutely ensnare Apple if a repair shop caused an exploding battery injury.
- webmobdev 7y ago
  That's bullshit - millions of electrical and electronic items have been repaired before in the past and in case something went wrong with the repair and caused damage, it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not the company that manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts). If Apple is really concerned about batteries exploding, all it needs to do is to make it easy to buy original or compatible batteries for its iDevices and provide removable batteries (like millions of other phones today still do). The user won't even have to go to an engineer to replace the battery ... oh, but then how would planned obsolescence work and poor Apple make more money!
  - briandear 7y ago
    > it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not the company that manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts). Not always. See Brown v. Quick Mix Co. Under the doctrine of joint and several liability a plaintiff may pursue an obligation against any one party as if they were jointly liable. That means that if Apple were found even 0.05% responsible for a third party battery explosion (i.e. the metal out of which they made the phones is conducive to fragmenting in an explosion, or some other such legal gymnastics,) then The defendant could collect 100% of the damages from Apple — even though Apple. This means that the plaintiff could recover all of their damages even if Apple’s share of the liability were near zero. It’s pretty clear that those that claim “it’s always the person that repaired who was blamed” — has never spent any time in a courtroom. That’s just outright false.
    - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
      In that case Apple should be in favor of a Right to Repair bill that explicitly absolves the OEM of any such liability for third party repairs, right?
      - judge2020 7y ago
        I imagine not all state-driven right-to-repair laws will be as sensible as Apple would like.
- CobrastanJorji 7y ago
  Can you explain how this is different than, say, cars? If a car disastrously fails, the consequences may be much, much worse. Would it be less sinister if Ford required all authorized Ford repair shops to be audited up to five years after they stop working on Ford cars?
- mnm1 7y ago
  Absurd. That's what car manufacturers would have you believe too. By this line of reasoning, repairing cars should only be done by the original manufacturer because cars are dangerous and something will go bad. I've personally almost been killed by break lines being installed wrong by Pep Boys. Who would I sue in that case? Toyota or Pep Boys? Obviously the latter. They screwed in the break lines backwards, stripping them, like the total fucking idiot morons that they are. If cars are repairable, all consumer electronics should be because literally no consumer electronic device is anywhere close as dangerous as cars. This doesn't change anything nor does it make it any less sinister. You're just making excuses for Apple's horrific behavior.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- simion314 7y ago
  >Much of this is far less sinister if you think who most likely gets held accountable for a battery explosion. This is a bad excuse, first of all Apple batteries will sometimes "explode" and you did not see Apple suffer for it(maybe some fanboys pride was hurt). We even have real data to do a scientific test, keyboards were failing, in the first months the users got the blame, they were using it wrong, they were eating at the keyboard... it took 1 year for Apple to acknowledge a fault and it got praised for the fact it will offer some limited free keyboard replacement. Analyzing this you can conclude that even if Apple is at fault the users get the blame so I don't see how if the user replaces a battery and it explodes Apple would get any amount of blame. In most countries warranty is not invalidated because you open a device, so Apple TOS are illegal, you can change your mirror on your car and you won't void your engine warranty, I am not forced to use a particular brand of oil in the car or a particular mechanic.
rasz 7y ago
so is CompTIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9JKRItHDME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9JKRItHDME
gatherhunterer 7y ago
There are no “good guy” companies. Stop electing obstructionists who have no interest in governing. Regulation is the only solution.
- briandear 7y ago
  It’s not the only solution. Another solution is to buy products from companies you agree with. If that company doesn’t exist, start it. Nobody is required to buy an Apple product.
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    Cool, I'll look into starting a new mobile hardware company to compete with Apple. Maybe this weekend. In the mean time, I'll also be voting against captured politicians.
    - briandear 7y ago
      Buy an Android. By something else. And remember Apple started as a garage company going up against IBM. Banning something you personally don’t like isn’t freedom, it’s fascism. Nobody has to buy an Apple product! It isn’t like it’s the government where you are forced at the point of a gun to comply. It’s a free market. Buy whatever you want. Sell whatever people want. Start your own damned company. Plenty of people before you have done exactly that. That you chose not to is your fault, not Apple’s.
      - xtian 7y ago
        First of all, the "free market" is a fairy tale. It has never existed. States have been shaping their economies since the beginning of civilization. The very existence of modern corporations and their special rights of limited liability is a radical dispensation from government. And secondly, where do you (or do you at all) draw the line on what sort of ban constitutes fascism? (Setting aside the fact that corporations have historically loved the stability of fascist states.) Is regulated overtime fascism? Workplace safety laws? Child labor laws?
shmerl 7y ago
Apple is one of the worst offenders when it comes to lock-in in each form, including repairs.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
As an iPhone user, I am actually happy about this. When I buy my grandparent's an iPhone, I don't want them duped into going to a shady service shop. When I buy a used iPhone from a regular person, I want to feel confident that the person was duped into having a shady shop service the phone. This is especially important as there are secure elements that are critical to iPhone security that have to be handled correctly. I trust Apple to get it right.
- jrs95 7y ago
  Trying to stop people is only going to make 3rd party repair options shadier, shittier, and more expensive. It's not going to prevent it entirely.
  - twiceaday 7y ago
    Shadier, more expensive, and less common. And that's the goal.
- hrktb 7y ago
  I feel your concerns will only be addressed by buying Apple itself. That’s a peace of mind you won’t get at a lower price. Otherwise how do you feel about the regular person selling you a device that might have internal usage damage not apparent yet on the surface ? I feel a button that is about to fail, a screen that has been beaten enough to be near its end of life are as much of more probable as a repair shop setting defective parts on its customers devices.
- andrewzah 7y ago
  The only reason people would choose a shady shop vs Apple is pricing. If no decent alternatives exist for repair, Apple can charge whatever price they want (on top of the hefty sum for the item in the first place). Having other vendors forces Apple to at least think keeping their rates competitive. Apple will always exist as the primary place people go to get their products fixed... regardless if other people have the right to repair them or not. Apple aside, we need to be able to fix and repair the things we own. That vastly outweighs any oh-so-shady non-Apple vendors.
ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago
So you're telling me Apple doesn't care about it's customers, employees, suppliers or the environment, just money? Shocking.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN, especially not snarky ones. Maybe you don't owe $BIGCO better but you owe this community better if you're posting here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago
    Just making the point that people can't live their values through these giant corporations. This has been proven time and again. Maybe that was a better way to word it.
    - dang 7y ago
      I certainly agree with you on that, but even that way of putting it—though better—is too generic to make for a good HN discussion. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
      - guidance 7y ago
        Dude, please step away from the crack pipe. You are a Nazi. Plain and simple. I know it's not nice to hear such a thing, but it's true. Someone should have mentioned this to you long ago. There could have been much pain and hurt and suffering avoided, had you only known that your actions are destroying people's lives. I assume many posters are too intimidated and are afraid of being banned, to speak truth to your power. That's not me. I simply don't care, and will speak the truth to your face regardless. Here it goes: Are you the one who shadow banned my last account? This is my second HN account. Honestly. The first one was a few months ago (account name 'shiftless'), when in my extraordinary 36-year-old graybeard naivete, I thought it might be a good idea to join this forum, to participate in discussions with fellow computer enthusiasts. There are many intelligent and wise people here, and many great discussions. Being that I have been living as a hermit for the better part of a decade, it would be nice to have for the first time in a long while people to talk and discuss with, to learn from and to teach. I invite you to read through the history of my comments, on this profile and the last, and honestly tell me with a straight face that I am a worthless person, that my comments are useless, that I need to be lectured, talked down to, etc like you're doing to this guy, or that I deserve to be shadow banned--my comments silently consigned to oblivion with no notification--simply for speaking my mind. Yes, my opinions are strongly held, but they are never ignorantly so; everything I know and believe is thoroughly researched and I can argue my position on any subject. Rarely have I been given a chance to do so on this forum. Actually, the posters here are quick to downvote, to flag, to run screaming to the Nazi mods to please hurt this mean evil person who posted a comment I didn't like. You created that culture. The fish rots from the head down. The harm you are doing to the community with your Nazi Germany style "moderation" is incalculable. The word "moderate" used to mean "moderation", but there is nothing moderate about your actions. There's no telling how many great people you've driven away from this site through this bullshit. It needs to stop, immediately. Are you planning to shadowban this account as well? If that's the case then I will never, ever post here or read this site again.
pier25 7y ago
Instead of invading shops and force them, Apple could offer repair shops some opt-in certification. This would distinguish them from the competition and give its customers peace of mind that they are "certified by Apple". Same thing in the end but everyone is happier.
- cowsandmilk 7y ago
  Maybe they could even call them Apple Authorized Service Providers[0] and they could hire Apple Certified Mac and iOS Technicians[1] that have gone through training and tests for how to fix the products. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-lamr/aasp-program https://support.apple.com/en-lamr/aasp-program [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332
  - himinlomax 7y ago
    Are you aware that said authorized providers are not actually authorized to do anything except mail the product to a repair center, which will usually replace whole motherboards at outrageous prices when all that needs replacing is a cheap fuse or connector?
- rasz 7y ago
  They already do. This is what the article is about. Official Apple Certification prohibiting you from repairing almost anything. All you are allowed to do is mail stuff back to Apple for a replacement.
ittan 7y ago
I highly recommend the Rossman repair group channel for his recordings of public right to repair bills and the hearings he attends. Some of the testimonies make no sense https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup Edit: someone already posted below, sorry for the double posting.
- JohnTHaller 7y ago
  Seriously. His content is really solid. And he's had some of the most in-depth videos showing the horribly poor design decisions that lead to stagelight and other issues.
- m463 7y ago
  I liked the video where he mentioned the reality. Repair shops cannot stock a bunch of batteries. To replace a battery, you must provide information to apple about the phone, then wait for a few days for a replacement battery from apple, then install it. Who wants to leave their phone for a few days, or visit twice?
  - anonsivalley652 7y ago
    It's so stupid, paranoid and user-hostile on Apple's part. They or their vendor should just sell real batteries to anyone who wants one. This is what happens when a short-term profit-exploitation bean-counter is put in charge to wreck a brand. Tim Cook must go.. he won the battle of valuation but lost the war of goodwill towards the brand; snatching defeat from the jaws of success.
  - bmn__ 7y ago
    "Apple's Independent Repair Program is a useless PR stunt." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCUF-V1esM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCUF-V1esM
- anonsivalley652 7y ago
  Louis may have to go to Hawaii. Think he'll have to pony-up for two first class tickets to bring his "camera helper" too?
dba7dba 7y ago
Below is a comment by someone commenting on Rossmann's video on the testimonies for/against right 2 repair laws. I found it quite illuminating so here it goes. Silicon Valley has turned us into software subscribers. Now, they are essentially trying to turn us into hardware subscribers. ============= Bless you Louis; you're doing important work. I think you need to widen the scope of your argument. I've been working in Silicon Valley for Fortune 10 corporations for 30 years and I've been privy to "business model" conversations for decades there. Here's my take (pardon the length): If you take a step back the essential reality behind what Silicon Valley corporations are trying to do, is disenfranchise consumers and abolish private property; more specifically and more importantly, the means of labor. They've already managed to pull it off for software; now they're essentially all subscribers. The current attitude as it pertains to hardware reeks of this being the intent for hardware too. Everything in software is SaaS today and the next step is to do SaaS for hardware. They also see that this is a prevalent model in the auto industry : Most people don't really own their cars, they lease them and under the leasing contract all maintenance is done by the dealership. In general, the whole "sharing economy" (Uber and the like) is also going down that business model — you no longer own your means of labor; they're owned by the corporation. They don't want consumers — and especially workers, to own anything — they want you on a leash, forever in debt, a brick in a huge Ponzi scheme where the entire life of the worker/consumer belongs to business model and you are nothing else than a credit line. Keep this in mind when you argue the Right to Repair: It goes well beyond "repair"; it goes into the very fabric of what it is to be a citizen, a worker and consumer in a market society. Companies don't want you to repair what you purchased from them because they don't really consider you've ever acquired the goods; you're a hardware subscriber and they want you to be tethered to them as a dependent; a predictable source of revenue for a publicly traded industry that needs to predict revenue and growth each quarter. How do you ensure predictable revenue when you're Apple ? You lock consumers in. What does "locking-in" mean ? Alienation, subservience, dependence. I'm not even a libertarian, nor a marxist, and there's no hidden anarchist agenda in my arguments — I simply believe in private property as an essential pillar of civil liberty. If what this industry does is not "abuse of dominant position" and wilful distortion of market forces to benefit nobody else but tech industry shareholders, what is it ? If you've studied the past, you'll recall the economic model of plantation owners relied on the slaves/workers not owning the tools of their labor. You were strictly forced (or allowed) to work under the monopoly of the plantation owners. Ironically the same model was instated by the Soviets, although they pretended to make it legitimate by claiming nothing belonged to any individual. Both the Bolcheviks and the plantation owners abused their lucrative monopolies. The foundation upon which the republic and civil liberties are built, is private property. If many in the tech industry have their way, the US will become one large plantation where a class of owners can shut you off your job, your communications and your access to education and culture, simply by remotely turning your devices into bricks. The hour is grave. =============
specialist 7y ago
The crux of the problem is authenticity. If I buy a Gucci handbag, I want a Gucci handbag. If the army buys an 8.8 grade high tensile bolt, it wants that exact bolt. As a customer and DIYer, I want authentic Apple parts, or equivalent. Both Apple and us customers have a trust problem. Apple's current solution is to try to lockdown the supply chain. They, and every other manufacturer, needs to do better. Apple has huge challenges with fraud and counterfeits. Whatever. I fix a lot of my own stuff. Nerd pride (before the fall). Not so long ago, I could get parts from directly Sears. I just rebuilt my washing machine. This time, it was a total pain in the ass. Trying to end my rant: Just sell Louis Russman the parts he needs. At cost. Figure out how to make it right. So that both Apple and us customers are confident it's all legit. PS- My first "real" job at age 16 was fixing Apple computers at a local dealership. This is an old problem, totally solvable.
- timw4mail 7y ago
  Before Apple really made it a problem, most of their (computer) parts were more generic. You may have had to take out 40 screws, but then you could swap the drive. In that case, "authenticity" is nonsensical. Apple's problem with independent repair seems to be more of a "squeeze all the dollars out" issue rather than anything else.
  - specialist 7y ago
    Both can be true. Apple is both transitioning to a "rundle" (see my other comment) and combatting fraud. You're ignoring the rampant fraud. Just one example: https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant-chinese-iphone-repair-fraud-forced-apple-to-develop-countermeasures https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant-chinese-i... So one consequence is Russman has to buy a $100 battery pack to cannibalize it for a $1 chip which cannot be sourced any other way. To reiterate: Authenticity is a ubiquitous problem. For decades. For everyone. Military, Amazon & eBay, fashion, chemicals, pharmalogics, etc. Everyone. You may disagree with Apple's strategy. But they are doing a far better job than pretty much anyone else, absent government government oversight (eg FDA). To expand: Fraud and counterfeiting is a drag on the economy. Efficient open markets require trust. I'm disappointed that between the right to repair and trade wars (eg IP theft), this very basic root cause isn't acknowledged. If you (we) don't properly understand the disease, the intended cure will surely be worse.
TheBillyMania 7y ago
I don’t know. It might be better if Apple controls the repair process. The reason is that my iPhone 11 stores a great deal of information including my Apple Card. I don’t want any of that info getting out into the wild. In addition, the latest cellphones are very complex. The latest iPhone used a 3D circuit board! Who has knowledge and skill to work on that? Look I’m all for people trying to make a living repairing stuff but the cellphone might be an item that falls outside the mean.
- obenn 7y ago
  You can use official Apple services if that is your opinion. Should people who disagree be withheld the right to commission completely independent repair?
- unlinked_dll 7y ago
  Plenty of people have the knowledge to repair these things. Apple isn't doing anything so fundamentally different in its designs that professionals outside Apple are incapable of understanding or repairing their devices. A circuit board is a circuit board. The difficulty of repairing it has more to do with access to it. Apple makes non destructive disassembly quite difficult.
- rasz 7y ago
  1. Apple doesnt repair, they offer replacement. No prior backup? lol you lost all data, have a good day. >latest iPhone used a 3D circuit board! Who has knowledge and skill to work on that? 2. a 40 year old stay ah home mum? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81whx_7wKHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81whx_7wKHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjZMWzXyzjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjZMWzXyzjU

Restricting third-party repairs, lobbying against the right to repair, and forcing up the cost to repair must do wonders for their trade-in program.

neuralRiot 7y ago

Apple clearly doesn’t want this to happen, they only want to be able to say they’re making progress in the right to repair issue. I used to have a shop for professional audio and was an authorized repair center for many top brands, never heard of such BS as Apple is asking, I had to repair the warranties for a flat rate (they would send the needed parts) the benefit for the shop was the out of warranty repairs and the availability of parts and info, we had inspections too but they were just to verify that the shop and personnel was up to the quality of the products.

Terretta 7y ago

Much of this is far less sinister if you think who most likely gets held accountable for a battery explosion. With 2 billion iPhones sold and 750 million in use, anything that can be done wrong, will be done wrong, somewhere — and the easiest proximate party to blame gets blamed. Changes the risk reward calculus.

mqus 7y ago
Apple doesnt need third parties to create issues with their products, they create enough on their own without acknowledging them and it doesnt seem to have damaged them all that much. I also dont think that issues caused by third party repairs will: - cause consumers/media to point their fingers at apple first and foremost - become widespread enough to actually be influencing apples image. Even if they do, I imagine that such issues will likely be caused indirectly by apple anyway, be it bad design decisions or abysmal availability of parts&schematics
JohnFen 7y ago
Nope, it's still very, very sinister. If a repair shop does something so incompetent that they cause a battery explosion (extremely unlikely, but let's go with it), then the repair shop will be held accountable, not Apple. Apple's worst case is that they'll have to push back on bad news reporting. That's not a huge burden. The reason Apple does this is solely because they make a ton of money doing this. Apple stance here is harmful to literally everyone else, whether they use Apple products or not. Apple is being a straight-up villain on this issue.
- t-writescode 7y ago
  I attempted a battery repair myself, personally. No repair shop to blame required! Some people would blame Apple for home repairs
  - webmobdev 7y ago
    > Some people would blame Apple for home repairs And they would be justified in doing so!
  - II2II 7y ago
    Perhaps they should be. Even rechargeable batteries are consumables in the sense that they have a limited lifespan. When considering the lifespan of the product as a whole, there is a reasonable expectation that the battery will need to be replaced. I would suggest that the proper replacement battery should be available to the consumer and the replacement process simplified to enable self-servicing. This scenario is quite different from design or manufacturing defects, where is is reasonable to expect the manufacturer (or a competent technician) to handle the repair. It is also quite different from abuse, where the user may inflict damage to virtually any component.
- briandear 7y ago
  > then the repair shop will be held accountable, not Apple How much experience do you have with plaintiff law? In a product liability lawsuit, everyone gets sued all the way up and down the supply chain. And these aren’t cheap lawsuits, powerful and dee pocketed plaintiffs attorneys take these cases on contingency, especially against an ultra deep pocketed Apple. Third party liability would absolutely ensnare Apple if a repair shop caused an exploding battery injury.
webmobdev 7y ago
That's bullshit - millions of electrical and electronic items have been repaired before in the past and in case something went wrong with the repair and caused damage, it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not the company that manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts). If Apple is really concerned about batteries exploding, all it needs to do is to make it easy to buy original or compatible batteries for its iDevices and provide removable batteries (like millions of other phones today still do). The user won't even have to go to an engineer to replace the battery ... oh, but then how would planned obsolescence work and poor Apple make more money!
- briandear 7y ago
  > it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not the company that manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts). Not always. See Brown v. Quick Mix Co. Under the doctrine of joint and several liability a plaintiff may pursue an obligation against any one party as if they were jointly liable. That means that if Apple were found even 0.05% responsible for a third party battery explosion (i.e. the metal out of which they made the phones is conducive to fragmenting in an explosion, or some other such legal gymnastics,) then The defendant could collect 100% of the damages from Apple — even though Apple. This means that the plaintiff could recover all of their damages even if Apple’s share of the liability were near zero. It’s pretty clear that those that claim “it’s always the person that repaired who was blamed” — has never spent any time in a courtroom. That’s just outright false.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    In that case Apple should be in favor of a Right to Repair bill that explicitly absolves the OEM of any such liability for third party repairs, right?
    - judge2020 7y ago
      I imagine not all state-driven right-to-repair laws will be as sensible as Apple would like.
CobrastanJorji 7y ago
Can you explain how this is different than, say, cars? If a car disastrously fails, the consequences may be much, much worse. Would it be less sinister if Ford required all authorized Ford repair shops to be audited up to five years after they stop working on Ford cars?
mnm1 7y ago
Absurd. That's what car manufacturers would have you believe too. By this line of reasoning, repairing cars should only be done by the original manufacturer because cars are dangerous and something will go bad. I've personally almost been killed by break lines being installed wrong by Pep Boys. Who would I sue in that case? Toyota or Pep Boys? Obviously the latter. They screwed in the break lines backwards, stripping them, like the total fucking idiot morons that they are. If cars are repairable, all consumer electronics should be because literally no consumer electronic device is anywhere close as dangerous as cars. This doesn't change anything nor does it make it any less sinister. You're just making excuses for Apple's horrific behavior.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
simion314 7y ago
>Much of this is far less sinister if you think who most likely gets held accountable for a battery explosion. This is a bad excuse, first of all Apple batteries will sometimes "explode" and you did not see Apple suffer for it(maybe some fanboys pride was hurt). We even have real data to do a scientific test, keyboards were failing, in the first months the users got the blame, they were using it wrong, they were eating at the keyboard... it took 1 year for Apple to acknowledge a fault and it got praised for the fact it will offer some limited free keyboard replacement. Analyzing this you can conclude that even if Apple is at fault the users get the blame so I don't see how if the user replaces a battery and it explodes Apple would get any amount of blame. In most countries warranty is not invalidated because you open a device, so Apple TOS are illegal, you can change your mirror on your car and you won't void your engine warranty, I am not forced to use a particular brand of oil in the car or a particular mechanic.

rasz 7y ago

so is CompTIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9JKRItHDME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9JKRItHDME

gatherhunterer 7y ago

There are no “good guy” companies. Stop electing obstructionists who have no interest in governing. Regulation is the only solution.

briandear 7y ago
It’s not the only solution. Another solution is to buy products from companies you agree with. If that company doesn’t exist, start it. Nobody is required to buy an Apple product.
- nate_meurer 7y ago
  Cool, I'll look into starting a new mobile hardware company to compete with Apple. Maybe this weekend. In the mean time, I'll also be voting against captured politicians.
  - briandear 7y ago
    Buy an Android. By something else. And remember Apple started as a garage company going up against IBM. Banning something you personally don’t like isn’t freedom, it’s fascism. Nobody has to buy an Apple product! It isn’t like it’s the government where you are forced at the point of a gun to comply. It’s a free market. Buy whatever you want. Sell whatever people want. Start your own damned company. Plenty of people before you have done exactly that. That you chose not to is your fault, not Apple’s.
    - xtian 7y ago
      First of all, the "free market" is a fairy tale. It has never existed. States have been shaping their economies since the beginning of civilization. The very existence of modern corporations and their special rights of limited liability is a radical dispensation from government. And secondly, where do you (or do you at all) draw the line on what sort of ban constitutes fascism? (Setting aside the fact that corporations have historically loved the stability of fascist states.) Is regulated overtime fascism? Workplace safety laws? Child labor laws?

shmerl 7y ago

Apple is one of the worst offenders when it comes to lock-in in each form, including repairs.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

As an iPhone user, I am actually happy about this. When I buy my grandparent's an iPhone, I don't want them duped into going to a shady service shop. When I buy a used iPhone from a regular person, I want to feel confident that the person was duped into having a shady shop service the phone. This is especially important as there are secure elements that are critical to iPhone security that have to be handled correctly. I trust Apple to get it right.

jrs95 7y ago
Trying to stop people is only going to make 3rd party repair options shadier, shittier, and more expensive. It's not going to prevent it entirely.
- twiceaday 7y ago
  Shadier, more expensive, and less common. And that's the goal.
hrktb 7y ago
I feel your concerns will only be addressed by buying Apple itself. That’s a peace of mind you won’t get at a lower price. Otherwise how do you feel about the regular person selling you a device that might have internal usage damage not apparent yet on the surface ? I feel a button that is about to fail, a screen that has been beaten enough to be near its end of life are as much of more probable as a repair shop setting defective parts on its customers devices.
andrewzah 7y ago
The only reason people would choose a shady shop vs Apple is pricing. If no decent alternatives exist for repair, Apple can charge whatever price they want (on top of the hefty sum for the item in the first place). Having other vendors forces Apple to at least think keeping their rates competitive. Apple will always exist as the primary place people go to get their products fixed... regardless if other people have the right to repair them or not. Apple aside, we need to be able to fix and repair the things we own. That vastly outweighs any oh-so-shady non-Apple vendors.

ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago

So you're telling me Apple doesn't care about it's customers, employees, suppliers or the environment, just money? Shocking.

dang 7y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN, especially not snarky ones. Maybe you don't owe $BIGCO better but you owe this community better if you're posting here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ropiwqefjnpoa 7y ago
  Just making the point that people can't live their values through these giant corporations. This has been proven time and again. Maybe that was a better way to word it.
  - dang 7y ago
    I certainly agree with you on that, but even that way of putting it—though better—is too generic to make for a good HN discussion. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20generic%20discussion&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
    - guidance 7y ago
      Dude, please step away from the crack pipe. You are a Nazi. Plain and simple. I know it's not nice to hear such a thing, but it's true. Someone should have mentioned this to you long ago. There could have been much pain and hurt and suffering avoided, had you only known that your actions are destroying people's lives. I assume many posters are too intimidated and are afraid of being banned, to speak truth to your power. That's not me. I simply don't care, and will speak the truth to your face regardless. Here it goes: Are you the one who shadow banned my last account? This is my second HN account. Honestly. The first one was a few months ago (account name 'shiftless'), when in my extraordinary 36-year-old graybeard naivete, I thought it might be a good idea to join this forum, to participate in discussions with fellow computer enthusiasts. There are many intelligent and wise people here, and many great discussions. Being that I have been living as a hermit for the better part of a decade, it would be nice to have for the first time in a long while people to talk and discuss with, to learn from and to teach. I invite you to read through the history of my comments, on this profile and the last, and honestly tell me with a straight face that I am a worthless person, that my comments are useless, that I need to be lectured, talked down to, etc like you're doing to this guy, or that I deserve to be shadow banned--my comments silently consigned to oblivion with no notification--simply for speaking my mind. Yes, my opinions are strongly held, but they are never ignorantly so; everything I know and believe is thoroughly researched and I can argue my position on any subject. Rarely have I been given a chance to do so on this forum. Actually, the posters here are quick to downvote, to flag, to run screaming to the Nazi mods to please hurt this mean evil person who posted a comment I didn't like. You created that culture. The fish rots from the head down. The harm you are doing to the community with your Nazi Germany style "moderation" is incalculable. The word "moderate" used to mean "moderation", but there is nothing moderate about your actions. There's no telling how many great people you've driven away from this site through this bullshit. It needs to stop, immediately. Are you planning to shadowban this account as well? If that's the case then I will never, ever post here or read this site again.

pier25 7y ago

Instead of invading shops and force them, Apple could offer repair shops some opt-in certification. This would distinguish them from the competition and give its customers peace of mind that they are "certified by Apple". Same thing in the end but everyone is happier.

cowsandmilk 7y ago
Maybe they could even call them Apple Authorized Service Providers[0] and they could hire Apple Certified Mac and iOS Technicians[1] that have gone through training and tests for how to fix the products. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-lamr/aasp-program https://support.apple.com/en-lamr/aasp-program [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205332
- himinlomax 7y ago
  Are you aware that said authorized providers are not actually authorized to do anything except mail the product to a repair center, which will usually replace whole motherboards at outrageous prices when all that needs replacing is a cheap fuse or connector?
rasz 7y ago
They already do. This is what the article is about. Official Apple Certification prohibiting you from repairing almost anything. All you are allowed to do is mail stuff back to Apple for a replacement.

ittan 7y ago

I highly recommend the Rossman repair group channel for his recordings of public right to repair bills and the hearings he attends. Some of the testimonies make no sense https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup Edit: someone already posted below, sorry for the double posting.

JohnTHaller 7y ago
Seriously. His content is really solid. And he's had some of the most in-depth videos showing the horribly poor design decisions that lead to stagelight and other issues.
m463 7y ago
I liked the video where he mentioned the reality. Repair shops cannot stock a bunch of batteries. To replace a battery, you must provide information to apple about the phone, then wait for a few days for a replacement battery from apple, then install it. Who wants to leave their phone for a few days, or visit twice?
- anonsivalley652 7y ago
  It's so stupid, paranoid and user-hostile on Apple's part. They or their vendor should just sell real batteries to anyone who wants one. This is what happens when a short-term profit-exploitation bean-counter is put in charge to wreck a brand. Tim Cook must go.. he won the battle of valuation but lost the war of goodwill towards the brand; snatching defeat from the jaws of success.
- bmn__ 7y ago
  "Apple's Independent Repair Program is a useless PR stunt." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCUF-V1esM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rCUF-V1esM
anonsivalley652 7y ago
Louis may have to go to Hawaii. Think he'll have to pony-up for two first class tickets to bring his "camera helper" too?

dba7dba 7y ago

Below is a comment by someone commenting on Rossmann's video on the testimonies for/against right 2 repair laws. I found it quite illuminating so here it goes. Silicon Valley has turned us into software subscribers. Now, they are essentially trying to turn us into hardware subscribers. ============= Bless you Louis; you're doing important work. I think you need to widen the scope of your argument. I've been working in Silicon Valley for Fortune 10 corporations for 30 years and I've been privy to "business model" conversations for decades there. Here's my take (pardon the length): If you take a step back the essential reality behind what Silicon Valley corporations are trying to do, is disenfranchise consumers and abolish private property; more specifically and more importantly, the means of labor. They've already managed to pull it off for software; now they're essentially all subscribers. The current attitude as it pertains to hardware reeks of this being the intent for hardware too. Everything in software is SaaS today and the next step is to do SaaS for hardware. They also see that this is a prevalent model in the auto industry : Most people don't really own their cars, they lease them and under the leasing contract all maintenance is done by the dealership. In general, the whole "sharing economy" (Uber and the like) is also going down that business model — you no longer own your means of labor; they're owned by the corporation. They don't want consumers — and especially workers, to own anything — they want you on a leash, forever in debt, a brick in a huge Ponzi scheme where the entire life of the worker/consumer belongs to business model and you are nothing else than a credit line. Keep this in mind when you argue the Right to Repair: It goes well beyond "repair"; it goes into the very fabric of what it is to be a citizen, a worker and consumer in a market society. Companies don't want you to repair what you purchased from them because they don't really consider you've ever acquired the goods; you're a hardware subscriber and they want you to be tethered to them as a dependent; a predictable source of revenue for a publicly traded industry that needs to predict revenue and growth each quarter. How do you ensure predictable revenue when you're Apple ? You lock consumers in. What does "locking-in" mean ? Alienation, subservience, dependence. I'm not even a libertarian, nor a marxist, and there's no hidden anarchist agenda in my arguments — I simply believe in private property as an essential pillar of civil liberty. If what this industry does is not "abuse of dominant position" and wilful distortion of market forces to benefit nobody else but tech industry shareholders, what is it ? If you've studied the past, you'll recall the economic model of plantation owners relied on the slaves/workers not owning the tools of their labor. You were strictly forced (or allowed) to work under the monopoly of the plantation owners. Ironically the same model was instated by the Soviets, although they pretended to make it legitimate by claiming nothing belonged to any individual. Both the Bolcheviks and the plantation owners abused their lucrative monopolies. The foundation upon which the republic and civil liberties are built, is private property. If many in the tech industry have their way, the US will become one large plantation where a class of owners can shut you off your job, your communications and your access to education and culture, simply by remotely turning your devices into bricks. The hour is grave. =============

specialist 7y ago

The crux of the problem is authenticity. If I buy a Gucci handbag, I want a Gucci handbag. If the army buys an 8.8 grade high tensile bolt, it wants that exact bolt. As a customer and DIYer, I want authentic Apple parts, or equivalent. Both Apple and us customers have a trust problem. Apple's current solution is to try to lockdown the supply chain. They, and every other manufacturer, needs to do better. Apple has huge challenges with fraud and counterfeits. Whatever. I fix a lot of my own stuff. Nerd pride (before the fall). Not so long ago, I could get parts from directly Sears. I just rebuilt my washing machine. This time, it was a total pain in the ass. Trying to end my rant: Just sell Louis Russman the parts he needs. At cost. Figure out how to make it right. So that both Apple and us customers are confident it's all legit. PS- My first "real" job at age 16 was fixing Apple computers at a local dealership. This is an old problem, totally solvable.

timw4mail 7y ago
Before Apple really made it a problem, most of their (computer) parts were more generic. You may have had to take out 40 screws, but then you could swap the drive. In that case, "authenticity" is nonsensical. Apple's problem with independent repair seems to be more of a "squeeze all the dollars out" issue rather than anything else.
- specialist 7y ago
  Both can be true. Apple is both transitioning to a "rundle" (see my other comment) and combatting fraud. You're ignoring the rampant fraud. Just one example: https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant-chinese-iphone-repair-fraud-forced-apple-to-develop-countermeasures https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant-chinese-i... So one consequence is Russman has to buy a $100 battery pack to cannibalize it for a $1 chip which cannot be sourced any other way. To reiterate: Authenticity is a ubiquitous problem. For decades. For everyone. Military, Amazon & eBay, fashion, chemicals, pharmalogics, etc. Everyone. You may disagree with Apple's strategy. But they are doing a far better job than pretty much anyone else, absent government government oversight (eg FDA). To expand: Fraud and counterfeiting is a drag on the economy. Efficient open markets require trust. I'm disappointed that between the right to repair and trade wars (eg IP theft), this very basic root cause isn't acknowledged. If you (we) don't properly understand the disease, the intended cure will surely be worse.

TheBillyMania 7y ago

I don’t know. It might be better if Apple controls the repair process. The reason is that my iPhone 11 stores a great deal of information including my Apple Card. I don’t want any of that info getting out into the wild. In addition, the latest cellphones are very complex. The latest iPhone used a 3D circuit board! Who has knowledge and skill to work on that? Look I’m all for people trying to make a living repairing stuff but the cellphone might be an item that falls outside the mean.

obenn 7y ago
You can use official Apple services if that is your opinion. Should people who disagree be withheld the right to commission completely independent repair?
unlinked_dll 7y ago
Plenty of people have the knowledge to repair these things. Apple isn't doing anything so fundamentally different in its designs that professionals outside Apple are incapable of understanding or repairing their devices. A circuit board is a circuit board. The difficulty of repairing it has more to do with access to it. Apple makes non destructive disassembly quite difficult.
rasz 7y ago
1. Apple doesnt repair, they offer replacement. No prior backup? lol you lost all data, have a good day. >latest iPhone used a 3D circuit board! Who has knowledge and skill to work on that? 2. a 40 year old stay ah home mum? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81whx_7wKHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81whx_7wKHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjZMWzXyzjU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjZMWzXyzjU