11 ms·

Toy commercials are being replaced by product placement and YouTube influencers

107 points by laurex 7y ago

nkrisc 7y ago
My kid is only two, so I'm not quite there yet, but most of this children's advertising makes my skin crawl. I'm glad to see that I was right about Paw Patrol, it's clearly modeled to be source for many lines of toys (wide cast of characters, each with their own theme and accompanying accessories that can be infinitely re purposed in different toy sets). Slap on "super hero" mode and you've added a whole other dimension to the matrix of possible toys. The unboxing videos in particular I think are just completely terrible. It's naked consumerism-by-proxy without even the pretext of entertainment. The consumption is the entertainment. Consume, discard. Consume, discard. Next toy. Lastly, perhaps most awful of all, are the actual-in-the-plastic-flesh "loot crate" type toys that I see at target. They're literally opaque, mystery containers that let you know all the different things you could get from it. This isn't an entirely new concept, but when they're actually called some variation of "loot crate" or "unboxing," it makes me sick. It's sick consumerism at its worst. A big middle finger to whoever decides to actually market these to children. It's disgusting and I hate all of it. Don't get me started on Christmas and gifts and presents for kids. By age 7 it already made me feel uneasy.
- dwild 7y ago
  > My kid is only two, so I'm not quite there yet, but most of this children's advertising makes my skin crawl. I'm glad to see that I was right about Paw Patrol, it's clearly modeled to be source for many lines of toys (wide cast of characters, each with their own theme and accompanying accessories that can be infinitely re purposed in different toy sets). Slap on "super hero" mode and you've added a whole other dimension to the matrix of possible toys. That was always the case though. Star Wars isn't worth billions because of the movies, it's worth billions because of the branded products. Never seen Transformers toys? GI Joe? TMNT? Childrens TV shows were always about selling toys, that was always the bread and butter. I agree with everything else though, theses unboxing videos and theses "loot crate", they are quite new and play with the instant dopamine rush. They are quite dangerous and seriously need to be stopped. It's crazy that the FTC put so much effort with COPPA to stop "tracking kids" on Youtube, but did nothing against theses kind of videos.
  - nkrisc 7y ago
    Yeah, it's not new. It's a tried and true strategy that has been refined over the decades. That doesn't make it any better. It was as slimy then as it is now.
    - dwild 7y ago
      > That doesn't make it any better. It was as slimy then as it is now. Oh yeah definitely, it still quite bad. It was just to mentions how that strategy isn't new and that we lived through similar abuse.
  - ahartmetz 7y ago
    It is maybe worth noting that TMNT started as an indie comic making fun of superheroes. Think about it, superhero turtles livin in the sewers... No particular point, I just think it's funny.
    - GuiA 7y ago
      The point I choose to see is that consumerism and capitalism do not discriminate. Anything and everything can and will be assimilated and squeezed for every cent that it’s possible to extract, no matter how punk and anti establishment/anti commercial your original creations may have been. (see also: the appropriation of feminist/LGBTQ/other originally fringe movements iconography by major companies the moment it became profitable to do so)
      - ahartmetz 7y ago
        This is one of the strengths of capitalism, I have thought about it many times. It came up in a fairly exemplary way once when there was a fashion photographer in a group I went drinking with. Nice bloke with some interesting stories. He mentioned a plan for an elaborate practical joke at a fashion show by showing some crudely made post-apocalyptic style collection. Anything "scandalous" would effectively just end up being good publicity.
    - jariel 7y ago
- germinalphrase 7y ago
  RE: Christmas We have a friend who only buy a select number of presents for their children. It essentially follows the pattern: something wanted, something needed, something worn, something to make, something to read. There is - of course - a cute accompanying rhyme that I don’t know. It limits expectation and pushes back a bit on the whole Christmas hoopla. Their kids seem into it. Like you, our child is too young to understand/care at this point.
  - nkrisc 7y ago
    At this point the biggest problem we have is extended family who all want to buy loads of stuff for our kid that they don't need. That's not even considering we have nowhere to keep everything we get. Most of it just goes straight to a donation box somewhere. I've learned that for many people, gift-giving isn't for the recipient, it's for the giver to feel good.
    - MFogleman 7y ago
      Oh man, I'm glad i'm not the only one. Please let me know if you have a solution. It is really difficult to, in a kind way, tell my generous friends and family, "Please don't buy my kids anything. We have more clothes than we need, more toys than we need. They are just going to play with it today then throw it in front of the already overflowing toy box because we literally have no place to put it" The closest solution we've gotten is to not do that, but instead use it as an opportunity to talk to the pre-schooler about charity and sharing with the less fortunate, eventually leading him to the "lets give our extra toys we don't play with very much to other kids" thought.
      - ftio 7y ago
        We're in the exact same boat. Our families will just not stop buying gifts for our three-year-old. We have two 'solutions,' which are sorta kinda working but are not totally satisfying: - We end up making a lot of donations to local thrift stores, women's shelters, and other charities immediately following holidays and birthdays without telling our kids about it. The toys they don't play with simply disappear. - If the gift is something we want him to eventually play with but that he doesn't have the attention span to remember in the near term, we just hide it in a closet and give it as a 'gift' for completing his 'good behavior' chart later on. He's always surprised and excited. Nice win-win for us.
- Reedx 7y ago
  Yeah, that was apparent with Paw Patrol, but the show itself isn't bad. Every episode is centered around helping people and working as a team. "Hey team, there's a problem, let's go fix it!" That's the core focus and messaging. The stories aren't about buying things. When kids emulate Paw Patrol, they're going on missions to solve problems and using the associated vehicles as tools. Which is what the pups do. Unboxing and "loot haul" videos are a whole other thing and are absolute garbage, totally agree. It's especially gross when it's little kids as the "talent", being pushed by their parents. Buy a bunch of those eggs. Film their kid(s) opening them. Slap on some wacky editing and SFX. Upload. Just gross.
  - stevekemp 7y ago
    I have a 3-year old, and he loves the Paw Patrol. When it comes to children's cartoons there are very few I can tolerate watching myself, but Paw Patrol isn't the worst. As you say the themes are largely positive, there's a decent range of characters and locations, and usually he's happy to watch an episode a day. But I do admit I find myself wondering far too much about the backstories! Where does all the technology come from? Who is Ryder? Is he a mad scientist? How did the Mayor get elected? Why does the other Mayor, of Foggy-Bottom, never actually spend time in his own town? And finally at what point (I guess I missed this episode) did the evil-cats become mirrors of the Paw Patrol? (Also: Sea Patrol? What a crazy and impractial dock for the boat!) Maybe I should take it less seriously.
    - rrobukef 7y ago
      The "STEM" in Blaze and the Monster Wheels annoys me much more than Paw Patrol. The errors in explaining friction (pushing does not slow things down until enough force is applied), cancelling sound by shouting louder, a general lack of units, badly explained electricity, the list goes on.
    - hyperpallium 7y ago
      Seinfeld worried that they never justified his antipathy with Newman. But the audience just accepted it.
    - 7y ago
- BubRoss 7y ago
  Wait until you realize half the kids movies are studios trying to sell your childhood back to both you and your child.
  - BLKNSLVR 7y ago
    We spend our childhood wanting to grow up and do things adults are allowed to do, and our adulthood reminiscing about how good our childhood times were. There is a certain percentage of movies, music, toys, and other forms of entertainment that play directly, and profit greatly, from this seemingly universal quirk of humanity.
- wmeredith 7y ago
  The unboxing video addiction + YouTube's creepy as hell recommendation engine/Elsagate is what got it banned in my house when my daughter was about 4. After a bout a week she didn't miss it.
- darepublic 7y ago
  I went to this discussion thread and am gratified to find the phrase 'Paw Patrol' in the top comment. Although I don't think its anything new, tv shows as insidious toy commercials has been around since I was a kid.
- harshreality 7y ago
  > Perhaps most awful of all, are the actual-in-the-plastic-flesh "loot crate" type toys that I see at target. They're literally opaque, mystery containers that let you know all the different things you could get from it. Variable reinforcement works. Collectible card games (all the way back to MtG in the 90's) and MMORPG PvE grinding use the same mechanism. The only way to combat it (positively) that I can think of is to offer something even more appealing, which for a parent is either impractical or unsustainable. From a parental perspective, is there a way to combat all the advertising and variable reinforcement products other than counter-conditioning those things with aversives? And aversives have to be carefully set up to be associated only to the toy or loot box or game, and not associated to you (which would be very bad). Two things that came to mind were delivering bad news (not something you just made up on the spot) right when the loot box or toy is opened; or, perhaps, sabotaging the toy, if it's a present, by adding something the child is afraid of, like a centipede or tarantula, not long before they open it... but I'm not sure the sabotage is easy to do without risking it being associated with other things (like you, for putting the fear-inducing thing in the box).
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    >Variable reinforcement works. Collectible card games (all the way back to MtG in the 90's) and MMORPG PvE grinding use the same mechanism. Even real life is like that though. If you don't understand the mechanism/pattern that makes something work then it'll appear as variable reinforcement. Human relationships are a prime example.
- sjg007 7y ago
  Just admit you buy them. You already understand how it works.
- christoph 7y ago
  My son is just past two as well. Here's a few things that have worked for us. YMMV of course. 1. Wooden toys - Brio, stacking blocks, etc. 2. Toys from charity shops. Buy, if he's not interested, they just go back. Cheap & recyclable. 3. No YouTube, no iPad, as little TV as possible. 4. Outdoor activities - scooter, balance bike, local park, etc. 5. Imaginative play - teddy bears picnic, etc. 6. Repetitive games. I hide a dinosaur toy around the house every night, the game is he has to find it the next day. It creates a nice bond. 7. Some toys we rotate. Stick them in the garage for a couple of months and swap out with others, it's like they never existed before. 8. Books, books and more books. 9. Music - nursery rhymes, music we like, him "helping" me on the piano, dancing, etc. 10. We spread Christmas out over about a month, due to the amount of plastic crap family buy him. More than he can enjoy in one go. 11. Most important of all, socialising and knowing when not to step in. Kids are mean. Sometimes too mean. It's difficult to know when to step in, but they need to learn the world is tough. 12. The most important, general comfort, love and explaining situations. Small children seem way more receptive to explanations than I would have thought before having a two year old.
  - roel_v 7y ago
    He's two, he doesn't know better. Post again when he's been in school for 3 months.
scarejunba 7y ago
This is the future of advertising, imho. If we can target native advertising then people won't be able to tell the difference between content and ads. Consequently, they won't be able to block them without blocking the content. Imagine an NYT text that's sort of personalized to you. Very cool concept.
- draugadrotten 7y ago
  Is it really the future? The very term soap opera was coined because soap advertising was done as sponsoring entire shows. It's 1950 advertising. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_opera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_opera
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    People forget that most shows on radio or television were about the sponsor, and the content was secondary. What we're used to from the 70's through the 90's was a change toward more of a separation. We're now seeing the shift back. In old radio serials, sometimes the actors would break character right in the middle of a scene and do a commercial. TV news anchors actually wore sponsor patches on their suits, and the sponsor logos were on the set, in a very NASCAR fashion. If you're ever in Baton Rouge, the state museum there has an old preserved TV news set and you can see the sponsor logos on everything.
    - shadowgovt 7y ago
      And much of the separation wasn't voluntary; FCC rules changed.
    - crooked-v 7y ago
      > In old radio serials, sometimes the actors would break character right in the middle of a scene and do a commercial. Jimmy Kimmel does this occasionally, with a full-on commercial as a skit in the middle of the show (clearly marked as an ad for broadcast purposes). The humor value generally comes from his sidekick Guillermo always being featured and always being pretty bad at it.
wnevets 7y ago
The TMNT, He-man, etc shows were adverts to sell the toys. Is that really better than youtubers showing a product?
- germinalphrase 7y ago
  It is - possibly - all terrible.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  The cartoon was entertainment in it's own right? It may have been a facade, but the veneer was pretty thick. I enjoyed many cartoons as a child and never got any of the toys. The only ones I remember wanting were the transformers, because my friend had them and so there was social pressure. Arguably the whole of HN (the argument is far from watertight IMO ;o)) is here to promote YCombinator and their associates; but it's still valuable to me beyond that. I mean that's how it works, provide something of benefit and surreptitiously embroigle your insidious messages in to that of how someone is inferior without your product.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    Unboxing videos are also entertaining. One must remember that there's a reason The Price Is Right still has such a high viewership---people actually enjoy looking at stuff and imagining they have it.
    - sarakayakomzin 7y ago
      that's a bullshit comparison based on a bad premise - you think the price is right is driven by consumers wishing they owned the product, rather than the fact that is a game easily played along at home with friends or family. Save for the final showcase items, they're bidding the cost of eggs half the time. this comment is out of touch as fuck.
  - wnevets 7y ago
    >The cartoon was entertainment in it's own right? If you ask my parents I'm sure they would disagree and just say it was a way to sell toys to kids
b0rsuk 7y ago
Now I'm going to annoy my friends by telling them Star Wars is just an advertisment built around products, like Peppa.
- toast0 7y ago
  If you watch the films, you can see this really started in Return. I'm sure the first two sold a lot of merch, but the films weren't designed around it.
- dntbnmpls 7y ago
  If that doesn't work, try telling them that star wars is just Dune dumbed down to a level that children can understand and enjoy. That'll get them riled up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4LYVs5Gg4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4LYVs5Gg4
  - b0rsuk 7y ago
    More SF fans around here know Peppa than Dune. Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Honor Harrington, Star Trek come before Dune.
gnicholas 7y ago
When my child (5) was learning about commercials, I explained that they are a company's way of trying to convince you to buy something. A lot of times they are misleading or don't tell the whole story, so you shouldn't believe what you see in an advertisement. We have yet to have been hit by a "daddy buy me X" plea based on TV ads. We did get them based on simply seeing things on a shelf in a store, so it's not that the child is immune to this sort of desire.
- cylentwolf 7y ago
  We have a list that our daughter asks us to put toys she wants on. Then we wait. After a bit we go over the list with her and see if there is still the desire. It has been edifying that most of the time the desire is gone and we remove the item from the list.
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    I have wanted to do something similar to efficiently dispose of my child's toys. Step 1: I put a red sticker on any toy I don't think has been played with in a while. Step 2: three weeks later, if the sticker is still there then I take the toy and put it in a holding pen. Step 3: if the child has not noticed it was missing three weeks later, the toy can be recycled/donated. We haven't done this yet, but it's on our list of things to try.
    - asiachick 7y ago
      Have you tried this with your own stuff? Books on your bookshelves you haven't opened in 10-15-20-30 years?
      - gnicholas 7y ago
        I do get rid of my own things from time to time, but I also get new things much less frequently than she does.
    - prostheticvamp 7y ago
homonculus1 7y ago
Why did the timestamps on this article and all of its comments change?
- ColinWright 7y ago
  Unofficial reply ... Sometimes the mods decide that an article or submission was missed by the HN crowd and deserves a second chance. To do that they will sometimes de facto resubmit the item, which involves some minor tinkering with the data fields underneath. That may have happened here.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    If that's the case, it's weird the mods decided the system needed a nudge for this story. This is very much "The Atlantic Discovers Why He-Man Exists, Only Now YouTube."
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
      Also a clickbait title: "... something nefarious" instead of mentioning what that something might be.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
zweep 7y ago
What's really sad is that now even children's BOOKS are now mainly a promotional channel for TV shows and toys. Book characters like Pete the Cat or whatever exist mainly to prime children to desire the Pete the Cat toys.
treebornfrog 7y ago
For a moment there I read "Mike Morris, Founder of 3 Daughters".
wmeredith 7y ago
> Children’s shows have long featured cute characters who are easily repurposed as stuffed animals or figurines, Golin noted, but in the past few decades, they’ve become especially common (think Peppa Pig and Dora the Explorer)—largely because merchandising opportunities are now baked into the concepts from the start, rather than developed after the fact. The author of this article doesn't know much about the subject. I stopped reading at that paragraph. This shit has been going on since the 80's at least. He's off on the history of shows being made specifically to sell toys by 100%. He-Man is the first one of these I'm aware of.
- wffurr 7y ago
  "long featured" "past few decades" I don't know what you think you just read, but it certainly included He-Man.
  - prostheticvamp 7y ago
    The author of the article makes this out to be something new, while also correctly stating this is decades old. I don’t blame OP for running with the article’s intended subtext.
- loco5niner 7y ago
  I read somewhere that the transformers cartoon from the 80s was created as a commercial.
ryoshu 7y ago
Hello 1980s. Good to see you again. This was my childhood. I still love my original Transformers toys.
- mikehotel 7y ago
  I remember them, where critical parts were made out of metal and the toy actually had some heft and durability to them. Now toys you can fix are considered hobby grade.
  - bcrosby95 7y ago
    I still fix my kids' toys. Hot glue guns tend to be great for this.
neogodless 7y ago
Fortunately they never did this to us when we were kids. (Goes back to assembling my Optimus Prime LEGO set and finding a better combat vehicle for G.I. Joe to ride around in.) Oh, looks like @dwild already mentioned this!
r00fus 7y ago
I've got two kids still in the "target range" for all these attacks. We combat with several approaches. 1) we watch what they watch and have them tell us if their preferences change so we know. 2) No YouTube, even YTkids - except on AppleTV - and we can monitor - and that's infrequent. 3) we keep them really busy on other stuff (pet, homework, family projects, outings, afterschool activities, even select videogames) This is not ideal or possible for everyone, but this has resulted, I think, in a good outcome so far.
gwbas1c 7y ago
My daughters love Paw Patrol, the shows, the books, and the toys. It's fun, and we're happy to indulge them. We don't subscribe to cable, so we're happy to buy the seasons outright and commercial-free. She asked for the Paw Patrol Mighty Tower for Christmas. She already had last year's lookout, but whatever. It's not like we bought her a lot of toys. But, what was a little creepy was when we realized that every kid at the same daycare asked for and got the same Mighty Tower. We know they sometimes watch freebie videos at lunch time, so maybe those videos have commercials?
- krustyburger 7y ago
  As a young child, I can remember coordinating Christmas present requests with my peers. This was before the era of internet video. It may just be that the kids are convincing each other of the ideal request(s).
aaron695 7y ago
The last line hints at the big difference. Toys, meh. Making kids fat for life is also big business. Gambling and the other drugs on top of sugar aren't great either. I'm not sure why people worry about toys so much.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jsf01 7y ago
Title should be “Toy commercials are being replaced by product placement and YouTube influencers”. Can’t stand clickbait titles and articles like this that keep stringing you along, expecting to get your answer, paragraph after paragraph, only to save the disappointing answer for the last little bit.
- foxbarrington 7y ago
  I completely agree. So much fluff to wade through to see if there actually was some new nefarious method I didn't know about.
- dntbnmpls 7y ago
  I figured as much. Considering it is TheAtlantic and it being on HN and throw in the title and I figured it's another targeted hitpiece on social media. > Title should be “Toy commercials are being replaced by product placement and YouTube influencers”. Nefarious product placement has existed for decades in movies, tv shows and magazines like The Atlantic. "Influencers" have peddled products forever. We used to call them celebrities ( aka influencers approved by the elites ). So what is the fuss really about?
- dang 7y ago
  Good suggestion! Adopted above. The best way to complain about a title on HN is to suggest a better one. You did! No one has any idea how rare this is.
ineedasername 7y ago
My daughter developed a rapid and acute love for Ryan's Toy Review (which started as an actual demonstration of toys, but very quickly converted to a heavy and subversive push to sell their own product line). It's been a slow process of steering her away from that content without being too overbearing and triggering a backlash of tears and acrimony, since she's too young to understand the reasoning if we just cut it off and say "no, it's not good for you"
- EvanKRob 7y ago
  His channel is awful. The parents alone are cringe worthy. Our boys don’t get to watch him anymore.
  - ineedasername 7y ago
    Oh yes, the parents.... But I could get over them if every vide wasn't simply an extended infomercial.
felipeerias 7y ago
Most people don’t seem to have a problem putting their little kids in front of YouTube, whereas many technologists absolutely reject that idea. Kind of makes you wonder why. Is it because we have a better understanding of how this particular “sausage” gets made? And if that’s the case, shouldn’t we say something?
ruslan 7y ago
It's not only about kids. I usually watch videos regarding CNC stuff on youtube as I'm involved in CNC machining and I often find myself impulsively buying nifty things featured in those videos, although I understand they won't be of much use to me.
mlang23 7y ago
This wouldn't be an issue if parents wouldn't use YouTube as a kid-pacifier. What about you spend time with your kid, talk with it, play with it, say, until it has a two-digit age? You dont have the time for this you say? Well, maybe you shouldn't have a kid then.
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  > You dont have the time for this you say? Well, maybe you shouldn't have a kid then. Maybe. Or maybe there's been children playing without their parents for periods of time since forever, and it's unrealistic to believe that every second of play time should be supervised.
venuur 7y ago
While it’s pretty clear that shows like Paw Patrol, Super Wings, and others are built around toys. The article never made it clear why this was bad. The shows still have to be interesting and entertaining to be watched by kids. I personally like Paw Patrol and others for the little lessons learned along the way. This is coming from a parent of a 2.5 year old.
EvanKRob 7y ago
Don’t give your kid unfettered access to YT. A video here and there is fine but the stuff that comes up even on YT kids if you just let them click around is toxic and creepy.

107 points by laurex 7y ago

My kid is only two, so I'm not quite there yet, but most of this children's advertising makes my skin crawl. I'm glad to see that I was right about Paw Patrol, it's clearly modeled to be source for many lines of toys (wide cast of characters, each with their own theme and accompanying accessories that can be infinitely re purposed in different toy sets). Slap on "super hero" mode and you've added a whole other dimension to the matrix of possible toys. The unboxing videos in particular I think are just completely terrible. It's naked consumerism-by-proxy without even the pretext of entertainment. The consumption is the entertainment. Consume, discard. Consume, discard. Next toy. Lastly, perhaps most awful of all, are the actual-in-the-plastic-flesh "loot crate" type toys that I see at target. They're literally opaque, mystery containers that let you know all the different things you could get from it. This isn't an entirely new concept, but when they're actually called some variation of "loot crate" or "unboxing," it makes me sick. It's sick consumerism at its worst. A big middle finger to whoever decides to actually market these to children. It's disgusting and I hate all of it. Don't get me started on Christmas and gifts and presents for kids. By age 7 it already made me feel uneasy.

dwild 7y ago
> My kid is only two, so I'm not quite there yet, but most of this children's advertising makes my skin crawl. I'm glad to see that I was right about Paw Patrol, it's clearly modeled to be source for many lines of toys (wide cast of characters, each with their own theme and accompanying accessories that can be infinitely re purposed in different toy sets). Slap on "super hero" mode and you've added a whole other dimension to the matrix of possible toys. That was always the case though. Star Wars isn't worth billions because of the movies, it's worth billions because of the branded products. Never seen Transformers toys? GI Joe? TMNT? Childrens TV shows were always about selling toys, that was always the bread and butter. I agree with everything else though, theses unboxing videos and theses "loot crate", they are quite new and play with the instant dopamine rush. They are quite dangerous and seriously need to be stopped. It's crazy that the FTC put so much effort with COPPA to stop "tracking kids" on Youtube, but did nothing against theses kind of videos.
- nkrisc 7y ago
  Yeah, it's not new. It's a tried and true strategy that has been refined over the decades. That doesn't make it any better. It was as slimy then as it is now.
  - dwild 7y ago
    > That doesn't make it any better. It was as slimy then as it is now. Oh yeah definitely, it still quite bad. It was just to mentions how that strategy isn't new and that we lived through similar abuse.
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  It is maybe worth noting that TMNT started as an indie comic making fun of superheroes. Think about it, superhero turtles livin in the sewers... No particular point, I just think it's funny.
  - GuiA 7y ago
    The point I choose to see is that consumerism and capitalism do not discriminate. Anything and everything can and will be assimilated and squeezed for every cent that it’s possible to extract, no matter how punk and anti establishment/anti commercial your original creations may have been. (see also: the appropriation of feminist/LGBTQ/other originally fringe movements iconography by major companies the moment it became profitable to do so)
    - ahartmetz 7y ago
      This is one of the strengths of capitalism, I have thought about it many times. It came up in a fairly exemplary way once when there was a fashion photographer in a group I went drinking with. Nice bloke with some interesting stories. He mentioned a plan for an elaborate practical joke at a fashion show by showing some crudely made post-apocalyptic style collection. Anything "scandalous" would effectively just end up being good publicity.
  - jariel 7y ago
germinalphrase 7y ago
RE: Christmas We have a friend who only buy a select number of presents for their children. It essentially follows the pattern: something wanted, something needed, something worn, something to make, something to read. There is - of course - a cute accompanying rhyme that I don’t know. It limits expectation and pushes back a bit on the whole Christmas hoopla. Their kids seem into it. Like you, our child is too young to understand/care at this point.
- nkrisc 7y ago
  At this point the biggest problem we have is extended family who all want to buy loads of stuff for our kid that they don't need. That's not even considering we have nowhere to keep everything we get. Most of it just goes straight to a donation box somewhere. I've learned that for many people, gift-giving isn't for the recipient, it's for the giver to feel good.
  - MFogleman 7y ago
    Oh man, I'm glad i'm not the only one. Please let me know if you have a solution. It is really difficult to, in a kind way, tell my generous friends and family, "Please don't buy my kids anything. We have more clothes than we need, more toys than we need. They are just going to play with it today then throw it in front of the already overflowing toy box because we literally have no place to put it" The closest solution we've gotten is to not do that, but instead use it as an opportunity to talk to the pre-schooler about charity and sharing with the less fortunate, eventually leading him to the "lets give our extra toys we don't play with very much to other kids" thought.
    - ftio 7y ago
      We're in the exact same boat. Our families will just not stop buying gifts for our three-year-old. We have two 'solutions,' which are sorta kinda working but are not totally satisfying: - We end up making a lot of donations to local thrift stores, women's shelters, and other charities immediately following holidays and birthdays without telling our kids about it. The toys they don't play with simply disappear. - If the gift is something we want him to eventually play with but that he doesn't have the attention span to remember in the near term, we just hide it in a closet and give it as a 'gift' for completing his 'good behavior' chart later on. He's always surprised and excited. Nice win-win for us.
Reedx 7y ago
Yeah, that was apparent with Paw Patrol, but the show itself isn't bad. Every episode is centered around helping people and working as a team. "Hey team, there's a problem, let's go fix it!" That's the core focus and messaging. The stories aren't about buying things. When kids emulate Paw Patrol, they're going on missions to solve problems and using the associated vehicles as tools. Which is what the pups do. Unboxing and "loot haul" videos are a whole other thing and are absolute garbage, totally agree. It's especially gross when it's little kids as the "talent", being pushed by their parents. Buy a bunch of those eggs. Film their kid(s) opening them. Slap on some wacky editing and SFX. Upload. Just gross.
- stevekemp 7y ago
  I have a 3-year old, and he loves the Paw Patrol. When it comes to children's cartoons there are very few I can tolerate watching myself, but Paw Patrol isn't the worst. As you say the themes are largely positive, there's a decent range of characters and locations, and usually he's happy to watch an episode a day. But I do admit I find myself wondering far too much about the backstories! Where does all the technology come from? Who is Ryder? Is he a mad scientist? How did the Mayor get elected? Why does the other Mayor, of Foggy-Bottom, never actually spend time in his own town? And finally at what point (I guess I missed this episode) did the evil-cats become mirrors of the Paw Patrol? (Also: Sea Patrol? What a crazy and impractial dock for the boat!) Maybe I should take it less seriously.
  - rrobukef 7y ago
    The "STEM" in Blaze and the Monster Wheels annoys me much more than Paw Patrol. The errors in explaining friction (pushing does not slow things down until enough force is applied), cancelling sound by shouting louder, a general lack of units, badly explained electricity, the list goes on.
  - hyperpallium 7y ago
    Seinfeld worried that they never justified his antipathy with Newman. But the audience just accepted it.
  - 7y ago
BubRoss 7y ago
Wait until you realize half the kids movies are studios trying to sell your childhood back to both you and your child.
- BLKNSLVR 7y ago
  We spend our childhood wanting to grow up and do things adults are allowed to do, and our adulthood reminiscing about how good our childhood times were. There is a certain percentage of movies, music, toys, and other forms of entertainment that play directly, and profit greatly, from this seemingly universal quirk of humanity.
wmeredith 7y ago
The unboxing video addiction + YouTube's creepy as hell recommendation engine/Elsagate is what got it banned in my house when my daughter was about 4. After a bout a week she didn't miss it.
darepublic 7y ago
I went to this discussion thread and am gratified to find the phrase 'Paw Patrol' in the top comment. Although I don't think its anything new, tv shows as insidious toy commercials has been around since I was a kid.
harshreality 7y ago
> Perhaps most awful of all, are the actual-in-the-plastic-flesh "loot crate" type toys that I see at target. They're literally opaque, mystery containers that let you know all the different things you could get from it. Variable reinforcement works. Collectible card games (all the way back to MtG in the 90's) and MMORPG PvE grinding use the same mechanism. The only way to combat it (positively) that I can think of is to offer something even more appealing, which for a parent is either impractical or unsustainable. From a parental perspective, is there a way to combat all the advertising and variable reinforcement products other than counter-conditioning those things with aversives? And aversives have to be carefully set up to be associated only to the toy or loot box or game, and not associated to you (which would be very bad). Two things that came to mind were delivering bad news (not something you just made up on the spot) right when the loot box or toy is opened; or, perhaps, sabotaging the toy, if it's a present, by adding something the child is afraid of, like a centipede or tarantula, not long before they open it... but I'm not sure the sabotage is easy to do without risking it being associated with other things (like you, for putting the fear-inducing thing in the box).
- Mirioron 7y ago
  >Variable reinforcement works. Collectible card games (all the way back to MtG in the 90's) and MMORPG PvE grinding use the same mechanism. Even real life is like that though. If you don't understand the mechanism/pattern that makes something work then it'll appear as variable reinforcement. Human relationships are a prime example.
sjg007 7y ago
Just admit you buy them. You already understand how it works.
christoph 7y ago
My son is just past two as well. Here's a few things that have worked for us. YMMV of course. 1. Wooden toys - Brio, stacking blocks, etc. 2. Toys from charity shops. Buy, if he's not interested, they just go back. Cheap & recyclable. 3. No YouTube, no iPad, as little TV as possible. 4. Outdoor activities - scooter, balance bike, local park, etc. 5. Imaginative play - teddy bears picnic, etc. 6. Repetitive games. I hide a dinosaur toy around the house every night, the game is he has to find it the next day. It creates a nice bond. 7. Some toys we rotate. Stick them in the garage for a couple of months and swap out with others, it's like they never existed before. 8. Books, books and more books. 9. Music - nursery rhymes, music we like, him "helping" me on the piano, dancing, etc. 10. We spread Christmas out over about a month, due to the amount of plastic crap family buy him. More than he can enjoy in one go. 11. Most important of all, socialising and knowing when not to step in. Kids are mean. Sometimes too mean. It's difficult to know when to step in, but they need to learn the world is tough. 12. The most important, general comfort, love and explaining situations. Small children seem way more receptive to explanations than I would have thought before having a two year old.
- roel_v 7y ago
  He's two, he doesn't know better. Post again when he's been in school for 3 months.

scarejunba 7y ago

This is the future of advertising, imho. If we can target native advertising then people won't be able to tell the difference between content and ads. Consequently, they won't be able to block them without blocking the content. Imagine an NYT text that's sort of personalized to you. Very cool concept.

draugadrotten 7y ago
Is it really the future? The very term soap opera was coined because soap advertising was done as sponsoring entire shows. It's 1950 advertising. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_opera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_opera
- reaperducer 7y ago
  People forget that most shows on radio or television were about the sponsor, and the content was secondary. What we're used to from the 70's through the 90's was a change toward more of a separation. We're now seeing the shift back. In old radio serials, sometimes the actors would break character right in the middle of a scene and do a commercial. TV news anchors actually wore sponsor patches on their suits, and the sponsor logos were on the set, in a very NASCAR fashion. If you're ever in Baton Rouge, the state museum there has an old preserved TV news set and you can see the sponsor logos on everything.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    And much of the separation wasn't voluntary; FCC rules changed.
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    > In old radio serials, sometimes the actors would break character right in the middle of a scene and do a commercial. Jimmy Kimmel does this occasionally, with a full-on commercial as a skit in the middle of the show (clearly marked as an ad for broadcast purposes). The humor value generally comes from his sidekick Guillermo always being featured and always being pretty bad at it.

wnevets 7y ago

The TMNT, He-man, etc shows were adverts to sell the toys. Is that really better than youtubers showing a product?

germinalphrase 7y ago
It is - possibly - all terrible.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
The cartoon was entertainment in it's own right? It may have been a facade, but the veneer was pretty thick. I enjoyed many cartoons as a child and never got any of the toys. The only ones I remember wanting were the transformers, because my friend had them and so there was social pressure. Arguably the whole of HN (the argument is far from watertight IMO ;o)) is here to promote YCombinator and their associates; but it's still valuable to me beyond that. I mean that's how it works, provide something of benefit and surreptitiously embroigle your insidious messages in to that of how someone is inferior without your product.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  Unboxing videos are also entertaining. One must remember that there's a reason The Price Is Right still has such a high viewership---people actually enjoy looking at stuff and imagining they have it.
  - sarakayakomzin 7y ago
    that's a bullshit comparison based on a bad premise - you think the price is right is driven by consumers wishing they owned the product, rather than the fact that is a game easily played along at home with friends or family. Save for the final showcase items, they're bidding the cost of eggs half the time. this comment is out of touch as fuck.
- wnevets 7y ago
  >The cartoon was entertainment in it's own right? If you ask my parents I'm sure they would disagree and just say it was a way to sell toys to kids

b0rsuk 7y ago

Now I'm going to annoy my friends by telling them Star Wars is just an advertisment built around products, like Peppa.

toast0 7y ago
If you watch the films, you can see this really started in Return. I'm sure the first two sold a lot of merch, but the films weren't designed around it.
dntbnmpls 7y ago
If that doesn't work, try telling them that star wars is just Dune dumbed down to a level that children can understand and enjoy. That'll get them riled up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4LYVs5Gg4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J4LYVs5Gg4
- b0rsuk 7y ago
  More SF fans around here know Peppa than Dune. Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Honor Harrington, Star Trek come before Dune.

gnicholas 7y ago

When my child (5) was learning about commercials, I explained that they are a company's way of trying to convince you to buy something. A lot of times they are misleading or don't tell the whole story, so you shouldn't believe what you see in an advertisement. We have yet to have been hit by a "daddy buy me X" plea based on TV ads. We did get them based on simply seeing things on a shelf in a store, so it's not that the child is immune to this sort of desire.

cylentwolf 7y ago
We have a list that our daughter asks us to put toys she wants on. Then we wait. After a bit we go over the list with her and see if there is still the desire. It has been edifying that most of the time the desire is gone and we remove the item from the list.
- gnicholas 7y ago
  I have wanted to do something similar to efficiently dispose of my child's toys. Step 1: I put a red sticker on any toy I don't think has been played with in a while. Step 2: three weeks later, if the sticker is still there then I take the toy and put it in a holding pen. Step 3: if the child has not noticed it was missing three weeks later, the toy can be recycled/donated. We haven't done this yet, but it's on our list of things to try.
  - asiachick 7y ago
    Have you tried this with your own stuff? Books on your bookshelves you haven't opened in 10-15-20-30 years?
    - gnicholas 7y ago
      I do get rid of my own things from time to time, but I also get new things much less frequently than she does.
  - prostheticvamp 7y ago

homonculus1 7y ago

Why did the timestamps on this article and all of its comments change?

ColinWright 7y ago
Unofficial reply ... Sometimes the mods decide that an article or submission was missed by the HN crowd and deserves a second chance. To do that they will sometimes de facto resubmit the item, which involves some minor tinkering with the data fields underneath. That may have happened here.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  If that's the case, it's weird the mods decided the system needed a nudge for this story. This is very much "The Atlantic Discovers Why He-Man Exists, Only Now YouTube."
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 7y ago
    Also a clickbait title: "... something nefarious" instead of mentioning what that something might be.
deleted 7y ago
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zweep 7y ago

What's really sad is that now even children's BOOKS are now mainly a promotional channel for TV shows and toys. Book characters like Pete the Cat or whatever exist mainly to prime children to desire the Pete the Cat toys.

treebornfrog 7y ago

For a moment there I read "Mike Morris, Founder of 3 Daughters".

wmeredith 7y ago

> Children’s shows have long featured cute characters who are easily repurposed as stuffed animals or figurines, Golin noted, but in the past few decades, they’ve become especially common (think Peppa Pig and Dora the Explorer)—largely because merchandising opportunities are now baked into the concepts from the start, rather than developed after the fact. The author of this article doesn't know much about the subject. I stopped reading at that paragraph. This shit has been going on since the 80's at least. He's off on the history of shows being made specifically to sell toys by 100%. He-Man is the first one of these I'm aware of.

wffurr 7y ago
"long featured" "past few decades" I don't know what you think you just read, but it certainly included He-Man.
- prostheticvamp 7y ago
  The author of the article makes this out to be something new, while also correctly stating this is decades old. I don’t blame OP for running with the article’s intended subtext.
loco5niner 7y ago
I read somewhere that the transformers cartoon from the 80s was created as a commercial.

ryoshu 7y ago

Hello 1980s. Good to see you again. This was my childhood. I still love my original Transformers toys.

mikehotel 7y ago
I remember them, where critical parts were made out of metal and the toy actually had some heft and durability to them. Now toys you can fix are considered hobby grade.
- bcrosby95 7y ago
  I still fix my kids' toys. Hot glue guns tend to be great for this.

neogodless 7y ago

Fortunately they never did this to us when we were kids. (Goes back to assembling my Optimus Prime LEGO set and finding a better combat vehicle for G.I. Joe to ride around in.) Oh, looks like @dwild already mentioned this!

r00fus 7y ago

I've got two kids still in the "target range" for all these attacks. We combat with several approaches. 1) we watch what they watch and have them tell us if their preferences change so we know. 2) No YouTube, even YTkids - except on AppleTV - and we can monitor - and that's infrequent. 3) we keep them really busy on other stuff (pet, homework, family projects, outings, afterschool activities, even select videogames) This is not ideal or possible for everyone, but this has resulted, I think, in a good outcome so far.

gwbas1c 7y ago

My daughters love Paw Patrol, the shows, the books, and the toys. It's fun, and we're happy to indulge them. We don't subscribe to cable, so we're happy to buy the seasons outright and commercial-free. She asked for the Paw Patrol Mighty Tower for Christmas. She already had last year's lookout, but whatever. It's not like we bought her a lot of toys. But, what was a little creepy was when we realized that every kid at the same daycare asked for and got the same Mighty Tower. We know they sometimes watch freebie videos at lunch time, so maybe those videos have commercials?

krustyburger 7y ago
As a young child, I can remember coordinating Christmas present requests with my peers. This was before the era of internet video. It may just be that the kids are convincing each other of the ideal request(s).

aaron695 7y ago

The last line hints at the big difference. Toys, meh. Making kids fat for life is also big business. Gambling and the other drugs on top of sugar aren't great either. I'm not sure why people worry about toys so much.

deleted 7y ago

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jsf01 7y ago

Title should be “Toy commercials are being replaced by product placement and YouTube influencers”. Can’t stand clickbait titles and articles like this that keep stringing you along, expecting to get your answer, paragraph after paragraph, only to save the disappointing answer for the last little bit.

foxbarrington 7y ago
I completely agree. So much fluff to wade through to see if there actually was some new nefarious method I didn't know about.
dntbnmpls 7y ago
I figured as much. Considering it is TheAtlantic and it being on HN and throw in the title and I figured it's another targeted hitpiece on social media. > Title should be “Toy commercials are being replaced by product placement and YouTube influencers”. Nefarious product placement has existed for decades in movies, tv shows and magazines like The Atlantic. "Influencers" have peddled products forever. We used to call them celebrities ( aka influencers approved by the elites ). So what is the fuss really about?
dang 7y ago
Good suggestion! Adopted above. The best way to complain about a title on HN is to suggest a better one. You did! No one has any idea how rare this is.

ineedasername 7y ago

My daughter developed a rapid and acute love for Ryan's Toy Review (which started as an actual demonstration of toys, but very quickly converted to a heavy and subversive push to sell their own product line). It's been a slow process of steering her away from that content without being too overbearing and triggering a backlash of tears and acrimony, since she's too young to understand the reasoning if we just cut it off and say "no, it's not good for you"

EvanKRob 7y ago
His channel is awful. The parents alone are cringe worthy. Our boys don’t get to watch him anymore.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  Oh yes, the parents.... But I could get over them if every vide wasn't simply an extended infomercial.

felipeerias 7y ago

Most people don’t seem to have a problem putting their little kids in front of YouTube, whereas many technologists absolutely reject that idea. Kind of makes you wonder why. Is it because we have a better understanding of how this particular “sausage” gets made? And if that’s the case, shouldn’t we say something?

ruslan 7y ago

It's not only about kids. I usually watch videos regarding CNC stuff on youtube as I'm involved in CNC machining and I often find myself impulsively buying nifty things featured in those videos, although I understand they won't be of much use to me.

mlang23 7y ago

This wouldn't be an issue if parents wouldn't use YouTube as a kid-pacifier. What about you spend time with your kid, talk with it, play with it, say, until it has a two-digit age? You dont have the time for this you say? Well, maybe you shouldn't have a kid then.

RHSeeger 7y ago
> You dont have the time for this you say? Well, maybe you shouldn't have a kid then. Maybe. Or maybe there's been children playing without their parents for periods of time since forever, and it's unrealistic to believe that every second of play time should be supervised.

venuur 7y ago

While it’s pretty clear that shows like Paw Patrol, Super Wings, and others are built around toys. The article never made it clear why this was bad. The shows still have to be interesting and entertaining to be watched by kids. I personally like Paw Patrol and others for the little lessons learned along the way. This is coming from a parent of a 2.5 year old.

EvanKRob 7y ago

Don’t give your kid unfettered access to YT. A video here and there is fine but the stuff that comes up even on YT kids if you just let them click around is toxic and creepy.