5 ms·

There’s a huge asterisk to this selection effect, though: illegal immigration from Mexico and Central America.

barrkel 7y ago
Unless you're an actual refugee fleeing imminent murder, rape and torture, migrating still takes a lot of get up and go.
- davidw 7y ago
  "A foreign accent is a sign of bravery"
- allovernow 7y ago
  Lack of opportunity, high crime, and institutional corruption are pretty strong motivators even if you're not in a warzone or on the run from cartels.
nostrademons 7y ago
There's a different form of positive selection bias for that: to survive in a country where you're there illegally, cut off from many high-paying jobs because of that, and may be deported at any time, it takes a particular form of resourcefulness and ambition. You'd expect these people to have fewer book smarts than highly-educated Indian and Chinese immigrants, but perhaps more street smarts. And to the extent that resourcefulness, intelligence, and determination are genetic (most studies suggest a strong positive correlation), these traits would be passed on to their U.S. citizen children.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  > it takes a particular form of resourcefulness and ambition. Or your home country just needs to be significantly worse.
  - JakeTheAndroid 7y ago
    I mean, we see people in fairly terrible countries not relocate. Why haven't 80% of all Mexican or Central American citizens relocated to the US? Or conversely, why haven't tons of the homeless in the US made their way to Mexico? If these countries are really significantly worse, and that is the only factor pushing normal people to relocate, then we should be seeing massive population movements all the time. Instead, only the extremely motivated with a sizable risk appetite take the chance. And, one could argue that those two factors combined qualifies that group of people as non-standard.
    - babesh 7y ago
      Actually a significant percentage have. The US is 16.7% Hispanic. That is over 50 million people. The population of Mexico is a little over 120 million. I would bet that if there were no barriers to immigration then you would see a significantly higher Hispanic population in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans#Hispanic_and_Latino_Population_by_state_or_territory_(2000–2010) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hispanic_and...
      - babesh 7y ago
        And from the article, over 60% is of Mexican ancestry. So over 30 million versus the population of Mexico at a little over 120 million. Roughly 20% of Mexicans moved to the US.
        losvedir 7y ago
        Or, as is the case with my family, the US moved to the Mexicans.
        Impossible 7y ago
        Using the modern populations of these countries is disingenuous, you need to consider recent historical immigration rates (legal and illegal). This is like saying there are 42 million Black Americans and most Black people have West African roots, so Roughly 20% of Nigeria has moved to the US. As posted below, historically Mexicans have been in the US forever, and the US annexed large parts of Mexico relatively early in its history.
- riyadparvez 7y ago
  > There's a different form of positive selection bias for that: to survive in a country where you're there illegally, cut off from many high-paying jobs because of that, and may be deported at any time, it takes a particular form of resourcefulness and ambition. We can replace "illegal immigration" in the above statement with any other illegal activities and it will still hold true.
m0zg 7y ago
It doesn't change the outcome though: even illegals are more likely to be upwardly mobile _from their lower baseline_. They can't take anything for granted the way a native would. I observe this in my (upper middle class) son: he thinks he's set for life, and doesn't put in _any_ effort whatsoever. I told him he's on his own when he's 19, he's a mere 3 years away from that mark, and it hasn't yet sunk in. He thinks he will always have upper middle class existence he's currently enjoying, no matter what, even though with his current grades there's no way he will get into a decent college. I personally was under no such illusion ever in my life, so I worked super hard to get to where I am today.
- tartoran 7y ago
  Are you an immigrant yourself or a child of immigrant parents? Yes, because immigrants on average have it harder they also work harder. Usually their children reap more benefits but the children's children flake out. Not sure how much of a trend this is but I've noticed this...
  - m0zg 7y ago
    I'm a Russian-American immigrant, yes, a legal one. We had our kid when we were already mostly out of the woods financially though.
    - tartoran 7y ago
      Eastern European fellow here. I came to the states about 20 years ago and the kid came about 2 years ago. Ive had it rough for a while as my dad passed and had to step in to help the family. Stress was something I wish I didn’t have to go through like that. The hardship made the ship sail better though, I understand why the first gen immig are more succesfull: they have to push themselves to the max

Unless you're an actual refugee fleeing imminent murder, rape and torture, migrating still takes a lot of get up and go.

davidw 7y ago
"A foreign accent is a sign of bravery"
allovernow 7y ago
Lack of opportunity, high crime, and institutional corruption are pretty strong motivators even if you're not in a warzone or on the run from cartels.

nostrademons 7y ago

There's a different form of positive selection bias for that: to survive in a country where you're there illegally, cut off from many high-paying jobs because of that, and may be deported at any time, it takes a particular form of resourcefulness and ambition. You'd expect these people to have fewer book smarts than highly-educated Indian and Chinese immigrants, but perhaps more street smarts. And to the extent that resourcefulness, intelligence, and determination are genetic (most studies suggest a strong positive correlation), these traits would be passed on to their U.S. citizen children.

toasterlovin 7y ago
> it takes a particular form of resourcefulness and ambition. Or your home country just needs to be significantly worse.
- JakeTheAndroid 7y ago
  I mean, we see people in fairly terrible countries not relocate. Why haven't 80% of all Mexican or Central American citizens relocated to the US? Or conversely, why haven't tons of the homeless in the US made their way to Mexico? If these countries are really significantly worse, and that is the only factor pushing normal people to relocate, then we should be seeing massive population movements all the time. Instead, only the extremely motivated with a sizable risk appetite take the chance. And, one could argue that those two factors combined qualifies that group of people as non-standard.
  - babesh 7y ago
    Actually a significant percentage have. The US is 16.7% Hispanic. That is over 50 million people. The population of Mexico is a little over 120 million. I would bet that if there were no barriers to immigration then you would see a significantly higher Hispanic population in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans#Hispanic_and_Latino_Population_by_state_or_territory_(2000–2010) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hispanic_and...
    - babesh 7y ago
      And from the article, over 60% is of Mexican ancestry. So over 30 million versus the population of Mexico at a little over 120 million. Roughly 20% of Mexicans moved to the US.
      - losvedir 7y ago
        Or, as is the case with my family, the US moved to the Mexicans.
      - Impossible 7y ago
        Using the modern populations of these countries is disingenuous, you need to consider recent historical immigration rates (legal and illegal). This is like saying there are 42 million Black Americans and most Black people have West African roots, so Roughly 20% of Nigeria has moved to the US. As posted below, historically Mexicans have been in the US forever, and the US annexed large parts of Mexico relatively early in its history.
riyadparvez 7y ago
> There's a different form of positive selection bias for that: to survive in a country where you're there illegally, cut off from many high-paying jobs because of that, and may be deported at any time, it takes a particular form of resourcefulness and ambition. We can replace "illegal immigration" in the above statement with any other illegal activities and it will still hold true.

m0zg 7y ago

It doesn't change the outcome though: even illegals are more likely to be upwardly mobile _from their lower baseline_. They can't take anything for granted the way a native would. I observe this in my (upper middle class) son: he thinks he's set for life, and doesn't put in _any_ effort whatsoever. I told him he's on his own when he's 19, he's a mere 3 years away from that mark, and it hasn't yet sunk in. He thinks he will always have upper middle class existence he's currently enjoying, no matter what, even though with his current grades there's no way he will get into a decent college. I personally was under no such illusion ever in my life, so I worked super hard to get to where I am today.

tartoran 7y ago
Are you an immigrant yourself or a child of immigrant parents? Yes, because immigrants on average have it harder they also work harder. Usually their children reap more benefits but the children's children flake out. Not sure how much of a trend this is but I've noticed this...
- m0zg 7y ago
  I'm a Russian-American immigrant, yes, a legal one. We had our kid when we were already mostly out of the woods financially though.
  - tartoran 7y ago
    Eastern European fellow here. I came to the states about 20 years ago and the kid came about 2 years ago. Ive had it rough for a while as my dad passed and had to step in to help the family. Stress was something I wish I didn’t have to go through like that. The hardship made the ship sail better though, I understand why the first gen immig are more succesfull: they have to push themselves to the max