6 ms·

Why? If you really want to do scripting in lisp, why would you not just use guile? This is just embracing complexity when scheme is a perfect fit, and already

Why? If you really want to do scripting in lisp, why would you not just use guile? This is just embracing complexity when scheme is a perfect fit, and already exists in multiple ways in the domain. Did Gauche stop existing? http://practical-scheme.net/gauche/ http://practical-scheme.net/gauche/

0x445442 7y ago
Man, I'm pretty up to date on things but I admit this is the first time I've heard of Gauche. Seems like a pretty mature project too what with the 907 page PDF manual.
VWWHFSfQ 7y ago
let them use clojure if they want to who cares
- arnautdaniel 7y ago
  Because one day you go to look for minimal cli programs and find githubs littered with "minimal dependencies, only nodeJS!". It's madness. There's already several much better tools people should be using for these domains, but they seem to insist on importing their massive and bloated toolchain in instead.
  - simongray 7y ago
    Why even bring that up for a Clojure project that compiles down to a single native binary? This is not Node.
    - kazinator 7y ago
      The materials that go into that binary which don't come from the project itself are external dependencies. There is a dependency on a Java VM implementation, GraalVM, and on a Small Clojure interpreter. That looks Node-ish to me, regardless of the application deployment model. GraalVM has some kind of updater, "gu", that's looks reminiscent of npm: https://www.graalvm.org/docs/reference-manual/install-components/ https://www.graalvm.org/docs/reference-manual/install-compon...
      - simongray 7y ago
        > The materials that go into that binary which don't come from the project itself are external dependencies. Not sure what you're on about... any piece of software is going to be composed of smaller pieces. What's wrong with that? > There is a dependency on a Java VM implementation Only for developing it. > GraalVM GraalVM is many things. This is compiled using GraalVM Native Image which compiles JVM bytecode into a native binary executable. There is no JVM hidden away in that executable either. > and on a Small Clojure interpreter The fact that it uses a a library (by the same author) for interpreting Clojure - what exactly is the issue here? If he didn't separate that into a library it would be fine, but the moment it's modular it's an issue to you? > GraalVM has some kind of updater, "gu", that's looks reminiscent of npm: GraalVM includes a command-line utility and that means it has the NPM cooties...?
      - iLemming 7y ago
        I don't know what planet you come from, but on my [primitive] planet people haven't yet learned how to build working software with exactly zero dependencies.
lvh 7y ago
Why use two languages with similar semantics when you can use one with nearly identical semantics? It might make sense for Emacs Lisp because there are things you’d do differently in a modern Lisp (Guile Emacs sounds great to me), but Clojure is already modern. Interface costs, both human and technical, aren’t free.
iLemming 7y ago
Oy please. Some Lispers are stuck in the past with their ivory tower ideals, saddened that nobody wants their favorite flavor of Lisp anymore. Why can't you embrace the fact that Lisp just like any other idea does have right to evolve and change? > Did Gauche stop existing? Out of all the five people who ever heard about it, three probably stopped using it and for the rest, it may just be like it never existed - they've never heard about it. Clojure on the other hand somehow managed to become third most popular JVM language and very popular alt-js language. Out of all PLs that can be considered somewhat esoteric, Clojure today is the most vibrant - it has more books, podcasts and conferences. More than Elixir, OCaml, Haskell, Elm, Purescript and even Rust. Very few people used Guile, even before Clojure got some spotlight. So instead of whining why can't you be happy for the fact that people still want to use Lisp in 2020 at all?
- arnautdaniel 7y ago
  So your argument is that I'm somehow a lisp fanatic and I should be happy that at least one lisp made it into the current fad?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - cutler 7y ago
    Exactly.
dkersten 7y ago
Because I'm a clojure programmer, not a scheme programmer. While I think scheme is nice, I know clojure well and really like much of its design. So, for me, if someone had said "hey, try this guile thing instead of bash" I'd pass it over like the many other projects I pass over all the time, but this interested me because it lets me use a language I know and like.
chriswarbo 7y ago
Why? If you really want to do scripting in scheme, why would you not just use TinyScheme? This is just embracing complexity when R5RS is a perfect fit, and already exists in multiple ways in the domain. Did scsh stop existing? https://scsh.net https://scsh.net
- arnautdaniel 7y ago
  Tinyscheme doesn't have baked in and complete posix/libc/etc bindings. Also you'd have to say R5RS -> R7RS is somehow a fall into complexity which makes absolutely no sense. Scsh hasn't been updated for over a decade. I appreciate the satire but I think compared to something like Guile, no one has answered what this does better beyond personal preference. And honestly, I don't see that alone as a good justification. I could have a preference for using Matlab to bootstrap embedded devices but that doesn't make it a good idea.

0x445442 7y ago

Man, I'm pretty up to date on things but I admit this is the first time I've heard of Gauche. Seems like a pretty mature project too what with the 907 page PDF manual.

VWWHFSfQ 7y ago

let them use clojure if they want to who cares

arnautdaniel 7y ago
Because one day you go to look for minimal cli programs and find githubs littered with "minimal dependencies, only nodeJS!". It's madness. There's already several much better tools people should be using for these domains, but they seem to insist on importing their massive and bloated toolchain in instead.
- simongray 7y ago
  Why even bring that up for a Clojure project that compiles down to a single native binary? This is not Node.
  - kazinator 7y ago
    The materials that go into that binary which don't come from the project itself are external dependencies. There is a dependency on a Java VM implementation, GraalVM, and on a Small Clojure interpreter. That looks Node-ish to me, regardless of the application deployment model. GraalVM has some kind of updater, "gu", that's looks reminiscent of npm: https://www.graalvm.org/docs/reference-manual/install-components/ https://www.graalvm.org/docs/reference-manual/install-compon...
    - simongray 7y ago
      > The materials that go into that binary which don't come from the project itself are external dependencies. Not sure what you're on about... any piece of software is going to be composed of smaller pieces. What's wrong with that? > There is a dependency on a Java VM implementation Only for developing it. > GraalVM GraalVM is many things. This is compiled using GraalVM Native Image which compiles JVM bytecode into a native binary executable. There is no JVM hidden away in that executable either. > and on a Small Clojure interpreter The fact that it uses a a library (by the same author) for interpreting Clojure - what exactly is the issue here? If he didn't separate that into a library it would be fine, but the moment it's modular it's an issue to you? > GraalVM has some kind of updater, "gu", that's looks reminiscent of npm: GraalVM includes a command-line utility and that means it has the NPM cooties...?
    - iLemming 7y ago
      I don't know what planet you come from, but on my [primitive] planet people haven't yet learned how to build working software with exactly zero dependencies.

lvh 7y ago

Why use two languages with similar semantics when you can use one with nearly identical semantics? It might make sense for Emacs Lisp because there are things you’d do differently in a modern Lisp (Guile Emacs sounds great to me), but Clojure is already modern. Interface costs, both human and technical, aren’t free.

iLemming 7y ago

Oy please. Some Lispers are stuck in the past with their ivory tower ideals, saddened that nobody wants their favorite flavor of Lisp anymore. Why can't you embrace the fact that Lisp just like any other idea does have right to evolve and change? > Did Gauche stop existing? Out of all the five people who ever heard about it, three probably stopped using it and for the rest, it may just be like it never existed - they've never heard about it. Clojure on the other hand somehow managed to become third most popular JVM language and very popular alt-js language. Out of all PLs that can be considered somewhat esoteric, Clojure today is the most vibrant - it has more books, podcasts and conferences. More than Elixir, OCaml, Haskell, Elm, Purescript and even Rust. Very few people used Guile, even before Clojure got some spotlight. So instead of whining why can't you be happy for the fact that people still want to use Lisp in 2020 at all?

arnautdaniel 7y ago
So your argument is that I'm somehow a lisp fanatic and I should be happy that at least one lisp made it into the current fad?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- cutler 7y ago
  Exactly.

dkersten 7y ago

Because I'm a clojure programmer, not a scheme programmer. While I think scheme is nice, I know clojure well and really like much of its design. So, for me, if someone had said "hey, try this guile thing instead of bash" I'd pass it over like the many other projects I pass over all the time, but this interested me because it lets me use a language I know and like.

chriswarbo 7y ago

Why? If you really want to do scripting in scheme, why would you not just use TinyScheme? This is just embracing complexity when R5RS is a perfect fit, and already exists in multiple ways in the domain. Did scsh stop existing? https://scsh.net https://scsh.net

arnautdaniel 7y ago
Tinyscheme doesn't have baked in and complete posix/libc/etc bindings. Also you'd have to say R5RS -> R7RS is somehow a fall into complexity which makes absolutely no sense. Scsh hasn't been updated for over a decade. I appreciate the satire but I think compared to something like Guile, no one has answered what this does better beyond personal preference. And honestly, I don't see that alone as a good justification. I could have a preference for using Matlab to bootstrap embedded devices but that doesn't make it a good idea.