6 ms·

For it to be entrapment the government would have to have induced/coerced the actual behavior of operating without a license. These arrests are the same as if a

by Fezzik 7y ago

For it to be entrapment the government would have to have induced/coerced the actual behavior of operating without a license. These arrests are the same as if a cop buys drugs from dealer and then arrests the dealer: the dealer goofed and can probably be charged with a crime since there is no coercion from the officer for the behavior. Entrapment is a defense to a crime, and in most (all?) states requires the accused to prove they would not have committed the crime but-for the persuasion of the government (usually a police officer/federal agent type, but not always). It is generally true that if the government merely sets the stage for someone to commit a crime that does not rise to the level of entrapment - there has to be more coercive behavior for it to be entrapment. Here is a good background story on entrapment... and how the defense almost never works: https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2010/12/portland_bomb_plot_case_likely.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2010/12/portland_bomb_pl... Edit: slight clarity improvement.

kbenson 7y ago
Given this tidbit, it seems less clear cut: Frequently, she says, officers will hire a handyman on the pretext of performing work that doesn't need a license, and then during the course of the job ask them to do something that does, like unhooking a toilet or laying some tiles. "When the handyman says no, then the undercover detective moves the conversation to something else and then comes back to the question later in a different way," says Sammis. "By the time the handyman gets to the location, they want to make the homeowner happy and end up agreeing to perform work that they didn't intend on doing when they first arrived. The undercover detective[s] are just creating a crime that probably wouldn't occur otherwise."
- true_religion 7y ago
  I want to make you happy doesn’t sound like an affirmative defense for committing a crime, especially when you are getting paid to do that crime.
  - takeda 7y ago
    I can understand someone doing electrical work without license, but unhooking a toilet or laying tiles? It's obvious that these laws were lobbied to protect job for those that got license, not because these require skill or much of knowledge.
    - true_religion 7y ago
      If you improperly do construction work moisture can get beneath your additions, and damage the structure of the house or become a breeding ground for bacteria. This can mean more expensive work is needed in the future, or cause health problems. My mother actually got a lung infection due to black molds that set in after an unlicensed contractor did some plumbing work. Since they didn’t have insurance due to being unlicensed, the reconstruction and her health issues were left to us to handle.
      - kthejoker2 7y ago
        I can't tell if this some amazingly subtle form of astroturfing or what ... Did the worker claim to be licensed? Because that would constitute fraud and seems like a simple civil case for damages. And also: are these incidents common enough to demand special laws about, as opposed to the general laws of fraud , breach of contract, etc?
        true_religion 7y ago
        Er nope. Just a regular case of an unlicensed contractor doing work. Also, what’s to AstroTurf? I am defending an existing law, it should be no surprise that some people like the law as it is...
  - kbenson 7y ago
    I think the point is that they refused once, and only under additional pressure from the undercover officer agreed to actually do the illegal thing. If you wouldn't have broken the law without the police's involvement, I think that's entrapment. It wasn't a lot of pressure, and you could say they are likely to break the law under pressure from other people, but I think we shouldn't be prosecuting people for what we think they might do in the future, and instead for what they've actually done. And in some of these cases it looks like the only thing they've done that we know for sure is allow the police to pressure then into breaking the law so the police can arrest them and bolster their arrest numbers.
- Fezzik 7y ago
  I totally agree. The courts bend over backwards to not find that entrapment has occurred. The bar has been set very high for what a defendant has to prove. I think reading about the Portland bombing case provides great background on how hard the government can push on a person and have their actions still not be coercive enough to be entrapment.
- danlugo92 7y ago
  That might not be entrapment but sounds like a fantastical waste of police man-hours. Isn't there more pressing issues in Florida to take care of first?

by Fezzik 7y ago

kbenson 7y ago

Given this tidbit, it seems less clear cut: Frequently, she says, officers will hire a handyman on the pretext of performing work that doesn't need a license, and then during the course of the job ask them to do something that does, like unhooking a toilet or laying some tiles. "When the handyman says no, then the undercover detective moves the conversation to something else and then comes back to the question later in a different way," says Sammis. "By the time the handyman gets to the location, they want to make the homeowner happy and end up agreeing to perform work that they didn't intend on doing when they first arrived. The undercover detective[s] are just creating a crime that probably wouldn't occur otherwise."

true_religion 7y ago
I want to make you happy doesn’t sound like an affirmative defense for committing a crime, especially when you are getting paid to do that crime.
- takeda 7y ago
  I can understand someone doing electrical work without license, but unhooking a toilet or laying tiles? It's obvious that these laws were lobbied to protect job for those that got license, not because these require skill or much of knowledge.
  - true_religion 7y ago
    If you improperly do construction work moisture can get beneath your additions, and damage the structure of the house or become a breeding ground for bacteria. This can mean more expensive work is needed in the future, or cause health problems. My mother actually got a lung infection due to black molds that set in after an unlicensed contractor did some plumbing work. Since they didn’t have insurance due to being unlicensed, the reconstruction and her health issues were left to us to handle.
    - kthejoker2 7y ago
      I can't tell if this some amazingly subtle form of astroturfing or what ... Did the worker claim to be licensed? Because that would constitute fraud and seems like a simple civil case for damages. And also: are these incidents common enough to demand special laws about, as opposed to the general laws of fraud , breach of contract, etc?
      - true_religion 7y ago
        Er nope. Just a regular case of an unlicensed contractor doing work. Also, what’s to AstroTurf? I am defending an existing law, it should be no surprise that some people like the law as it is...
- kbenson 7y ago
  I think the point is that they refused once, and only under additional pressure from the undercover officer agreed to actually do the illegal thing. If you wouldn't have broken the law without the police's involvement, I think that's entrapment. It wasn't a lot of pressure, and you could say they are likely to break the law under pressure from other people, but I think we shouldn't be prosecuting people for what we think they might do in the future, and instead for what they've actually done. And in some of these cases it looks like the only thing they've done that we know for sure is allow the police to pressure then into breaking the law so the police can arrest them and bolster their arrest numbers.
Fezzik 7y ago
I totally agree. The courts bend over backwards to not find that entrapment has occurred. The bar has been set very high for what a defendant has to prove. I think reading about the Portland bombing case provides great background on how hard the government can push on a person and have their actions still not be coercive enough to be entrapment.
danlugo92 7y ago
That might not be entrapment but sounds like a fantastical waste of police man-hours. Isn't there more pressing issues in Florida to take care of first?