12 ms·

Undercover Cops Hired 118 Handymen, Then Arrested Them for Not Having Licenses

103 points by seibelj 7y ago

ravenstine 7y ago
In my experience, licensed handymen and contractors aren't much better. It sure is good to know that, while cops in many cities are giving up going after "low level" property crime, they are now so bored that they've got conduct elaborate sting operations on people for using a wrench on someone's leaky pipe without a license.
- antupis 7y ago
  Occupational licensing is bad for economy and people generally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_licensing#Evidence_on_the_effects_of_occupational_licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_licensing#Evidenc...
  - jariel 7y ago
    Can't agree there. You definitely want your doctor, optometrist, dentist to be licensed. You definitely want your wiring to be done by a proper electrician. You want your new building signed of by a licensed Engineer. Etc.. General carpentry is a little bit different, but those with proper apprenticeships are considerably more likely to be better, but in that case, it's not a guarantee. The wikipedia article you presented as evidence has some troubling issues. Much of it is focused on the fact that 'without licensing' there's 'more growth' in the given field of employment, which is obvious and mostly beside the point: the issue is competence. When measuring quality they mention "find that occupational licensing of dentists does not lead to improved measured dental outcomes of patients, but is associated with higher price" - which is deeply disingenuous because it's likely related to specific kinds of licensing as oppose do the 'material issue of competence' which is the fact said dentists actually attended dental school. Can you imagine for a second someone giving you fillings, scrips, pulling out teeth, x-rays without having gone to dentistry school? What the state needs to do is make clear which occupations are licensed, which are not, and the kinds of work that can be done otherwise. Replacing a doorknob or a water faucet may be a bridge too far for licensing requirements, but doing anything 'load-bearing' for example might be within the purview of regulation.
    - yostrovs 7y ago
      Please speak for yourself. I do my own electric work and I can use an app to create an eye glasses prescription, though electricians have to be licensed and optometrist are only ones that can write a glasses script. How about filling up your car with gasoline? Do you do it yourself or have a professional do it safely instead for you?
      - Psyladine 7y ago
        >You definitely want your doctor, optometrist, dentist to be licensed. >>Please speak for yourself. 90% of any profession can be jury rigged by almost anyone. The remaining 10%, including the liability behind their actions, is why they get paid to do it for a living. If you want to superglue your wounds and run your own electrical grid more power to you, but none of us are islands and you live within an insulated bubble created by the professional standards of those around you.
        yostrovs 7y ago
        Superglue is used in medicine, including heart surgery, to bind tissues.
      - jariel 7y ago
        "How about filling up your car with gasoline? Do you do it yourself or have a professional do it safely instead for you?" Yes, why don't you go have your appendix taken out by someone who 'saw a video on youtube'.
    - fnordfnordfnord 7y ago
      Effective regulation might be okay. Then maybe people like former Dr. Christopher Duntsch wouldn't be able to practice for years, killing and maiming dozens of patients.
      - jariel 7y ago
        Seriously? That's your logic? Here on HN? So let's just let anyone be a doctor then? Tell you what: let's divide North America into two parts - you take the 'anyone with a pair of pliers can be a doctor 1/2' and I'll take the 'actual trained doctor 1/2' and we'll see how it works out.
pjkundert 7y ago
As the cities go dark, meddling bureaucrats will go to sleep hungry and cold, but warmed by the knowledge that they crushed someone who knew how those nasty hammers, wrenches and saws worked. The world is a safer place.
- vkou 7y ago
  It's not the bureaucrats that want this legislature, it's licensed tradespeople who want it, so that unlicensed tradespeople don't take work from them. You should be turning your ire at the hammer-swingers, wrench-turners, and saw-operators.
  - thrill 7y ago
    Hammer swingers don't legislate.
    - pas 7y ago
      They pay lobbyists to influence those who do. Also they might/can be very vocal, like unions. That is power to affect legislation.
vvanders 7y ago
> where undercover deputies filmed them performing or agreeing to perform prohibited tasks like painting ... Okay, electrical work I get but... painting? So glad we're protected from rogue... painters.
- protomyth 7y ago
  If you want the truly bizarre (read protectionist), check out lawmakers reasons for licensed interior designers.
- lazulicurio 7y ago
  My guess would be for having to properly handle and dispose of leaded paint in older homes.
- ken 7y ago
  I was just on a job which was initially scheduled to include painting. The SDS for the primer was 17 pages long. We had to fit and train on respirators. We had to develop methods to keep the paint from spilling while transported around our work environment, and how to store and dispose of it at the end of the day. Eventually, the painting went to another crew (whew). I saw painters on site wearing full bunny suits. I don’t know if licensing helps here (I have no government license to paint in my state) but I would not want any random person to think any paint is as easy to use as any other. Just because it doesn’t cause immediate damage doesn’t mean it can’t cause serious damage.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
Sign that they are overstaffed. Imagine the resources spent to go after these guys.
- SN76477 7y ago
  Yes As I keep saying the expense of perusing crimes should be evaluated like you would evaluate any expense. Blindly going after anything just creates more problems.
  - onetimemanytime 7y ago
    I don't agree 100% on that because some crimes terrorize communities and nothing should be spared to fight them. But to jail house painters without a license? When one can go to Home Depot, buy the stuff and do it by himself. They need to prioritize and if they have come to this, it means that the county is very safe and xx% of cops have nothing to do. So fire them.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Or that the other stuff is harder, more boring and dangerous to do. God knows I have embarked on some "safe" projects once in a while in the office to avoid the dogs.
ErikAugust 7y ago
Without looking, let's take a guess as to where this happened. Florida?
- aneutron 7y ago
  I was thinking the exact same thing.
jimnotgym 7y ago
Can I ask any legal expert to explain the difference between this and entrapment?
- Fezzik 7y ago
  For it to be entrapment the government would have to have induced/coerced the actual behavior of operating without a license. These arrests are the same as if a cop buys drugs from dealer and then arrests the dealer: the dealer goofed and can probably be charged with a crime since there is no coercion from the officer for the behavior. Entrapment is a defense to a crime, and in most (all?) states requires the accused to prove they would not have committed the crime but-for the persuasion of the government (usually a police officer/federal agent type, but not always). It is generally true that if the government merely sets the stage for someone to commit a crime that does not rise to the level of entrapment - there has to be more coercive behavior for it to be entrapment. Here is a good background story on entrapment... and how the defense almost never works: https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2010/12/portland_bomb_plot_case_likely.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2010/12/portland_bomb_pl... Edit: slight clarity improvement.
  - kbenson 7y ago
    Given this tidbit, it seems less clear cut: Frequently, she says, officers will hire a handyman on the pretext of performing work that doesn't need a license, and then during the course of the job ask them to do something that does, like unhooking a toilet or laying some tiles. "When the handyman says no, then the undercover detective moves the conversation to something else and then comes back to the question later in a different way," says Sammis. "By the time the handyman gets to the location, they want to make the homeowner happy and end up agreeing to perform work that they didn't intend on doing when they first arrived. The undercover detective[s] are just creating a crime that probably wouldn't occur otherwise."
    - true_religion 7y ago
      I want to make you happy doesn’t sound like an affirmative defense for committing a crime, especially when you are getting paid to do that crime.
function_seven 7y ago
This burns me up: > These 118 con men and women were posing as contractors & preying on innocent homeowners in Hillsborough County, who were just looking to repair or improve their home," said Hillsborough County Sheriff Chad Chronister I am almost certain that's not what happened. Unless they each lied about having a contractors' license when asked, they didn't "pose" as anything, and aren't conning anyone. Based on the examples in this article, is there anything that doesn't require a license to do? Unhooking a toilet is apparently an advanced skill in Florida. I guess this is my reminder to give some more to www.ij.org
- ravenstine 7y ago
  > Based on the examples in this article, is there anything that doesn't require a license to do? Ironically, software development.
  - WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
    I mean, it's not like planes are falling out of the sky, we don't need standards and licenses.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      Planes do have standards
      - kick 7y ago
        That's the joke. (Made more obvious by the fact that the 737 MAX controversy was over a software issue.)
        silon42 7y ago
        The MAX is a system design issue... for reliability it should probably include at least a third AoA sensor.
        7y ago
bjt2n3904 7y ago
Arrested? Good grief. This should be a fine, at most. Maybe if they claimed to be licensed and weren't, or forged documents that said they were... But this sounds like nonsense.
- backupcavalry 7y ago
  Prison industrial complex needs its ultracheap labour one way or another.
droithomme 7y ago
Why should house and fence painting require licensing? I hire people. If they are removing a tree, replacing septic lines, doing electrical work, I want to see they are licensed, bonded, and insured. If their lackey screws up and hurts himself I want their insurance to pay. If the tree falls the wrong way and destroys my house I want their insurance to pay. This is why I always ask them about their bonding and insurance and need to see evidence of each. Many never come back after I ask for that! But if I'm hiring someone for painting, it's different. Anyone can do that okay. Along with minor household repairs.
- lazulicurio 7y ago
  As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, leaded paint can be a major health hazard in older homes.
- masonic 7y ago
  You're fine with lead paint nite being properly remediated and instead aerosolized through your neighborhood, then? And asbestos fibers?
joshfraser 7y ago
Sigh. If only we cared half as much about real problems plaguing America.
aj7 7y ago
In Florida, the following scam is common. A person obtains a bonafide General contractor’s license. Using technicalities, he avoids insurance requirements. (This is trivial.) He sets up an office in a strip mall or his home. Then, numerous unlicensed individuals work “under” him. He may or may not make a specialty of obtaining permits.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  Is that actually a scam? It sounds like a contracting agency.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - threatofrain 7y ago
    It also sounds like small office accounting.
  - aj7 7y ago
    It’s totally a scam, but it’s legal. If the entrepreneur has incorporated, he probably can’t be sued. What’s more, he doesn’t have to pay a penny in workman’s comp, because Florida has loopholes which permit multiple levels of “independent contractors” with only the top guy having a license, and a specific form letting the top guy absolve himself of responsibility for his “subs.” One guy got so good at this scam that he had a LinkedIn page and an IOS app you could download. Florida’s codes contain numerous devices like this. Most prominent is the “Notice of Non-Representation” that your buyer’s agent will get you to sign, just just just before closing.
ur-whale 7y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tbVRC_oOTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tbVRC_oOTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSLy3mtpq2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSLy3mtpq2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lFwAp8f5kU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lFwAp8f5kU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2otD8mmZsyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2otD8mmZsyA
wokkel 7y ago
What bothers me most about this is the statement: "including several who had past criminal convictions". The whole reason to put people in jail is to punish them. After they did their time the original crime should not be held against them. Not so in the usa where it's once a thief always a thief.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  "several" - is that more or less than expected in the public at large?
  - FarAdvance4 7y ago
    According to the article, it was 8. 8 had prior convictions. The other 110 were "first time offenders."
- yostrovs 7y ago
  Isn't a murderer who served his time still a murderer after release? Wouldn't you be careful around him?
  - smileypete 7y ago
    Maybe a bit better than an unknown murderer who may have recently committed a crime. For an example a third of murders in the US now go unsolved: https://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/395069137/open-cases-why-one-third-of-murders-in-america-go-unresolved?t=1580994780388 https://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/395069137/open-cases-why-one-...
  - beerandt 7y ago
    So run a background check on the people you hire, if that's important to you. But it has nothing to do with technical ability. And do you think licensed contractors aren't hiring ex-cons to work for them? Generally only the owner or supervisors are required to be licensed, not all employees.
belorn 7y ago
Things might be different in the US. The reason why Sweden has similar regulations comes down to relative simple reasons. The state want homeowners to have home insurance in case something bad happen that would result in the state/city having to step in and pay for it, such as a fire. Insurance companies want lower risks (and might also be pressured by the state to have lower rates). They want everything that is covered by the home insurance to be installed by a licensed contractor, and in the case the contractor is at fault, they want them to have insurance against mistakes. And thus the government create licensed tradespeople to facilitate the above. Unhooking a toilet is not hard, but home insurance covers water damage. Sweden also has a lot of social safety nets so in the case that someones home get destroyed the city is required to help them. Requirements for home insurance moves some of that risk onto insurance companies.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  Your reasoning depends on the added cost of licensed tradespeople being less than the added damage caused by unlicensed tradespeople. I suspect that is not true.
  - mcv 7y ago
    I suspect it's not true as long as licenses are required, but as soon as no licenses are required anymore, it could very quickly become true.
- smileypete 7y ago
  You don't necessarily need licensing for liability issues, just a requirement for contractors to carry public indemnity insurance and only work within its terms.
  - belorn 7y ago
    It is not necessary but the situation that the government sits at is tricky. Intervention like sending out fire trucks or giving health care is usually paid upfront by the government, as is social support aid in the case the homeowner become homeless. If neither the contractor nor the homeowner can pay it will be up to the government to foot the bill. In theory, if insurance companies would give out public indemnity insurance to unlicensed contractors then it would lower the risk for the government, assuming the coverage is broad enough. It also assumes that the cost of getting such public indemnity insurance is lower than getting a license, or contractors would just get the license instead.
znpy 7y ago
> prohibited tasks like painting or installing recess lighting Does anyone have to add anything?
killaken2000 7y ago
That's great and all but how was their work?
yostrovs 7y ago
How would one know ahead of time what requires licensing and what doesn't? Does applying wallpaper? What about cleaning the clothes dryer's exhaust pipe? Electric is obvious, but did the accused here actually know that tiling and painting requires a license?
throwawaymanbot 7y ago
this is just imbecilic. But we reap what we sow. Welcome to American Capitalism in 2020.

103 points by seibelj 7y ago

In my experience, licensed handymen and contractors aren't much better. It sure is good to know that, while cops in many cities are giving up going after "low level" property crime, they are now so bored that they've got conduct elaborate sting operations on people for using a wrench on someone's leaky pipe without a license.

antupis 7y ago
Occupational licensing is bad for economy and people generally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_licensing#Evidence_on_the_effects_of_occupational_licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_licensing#Evidenc...
- jariel 7y ago
  Can't agree there. You definitely want your doctor, optometrist, dentist to be licensed. You definitely want your wiring to be done by a proper electrician. You want your new building signed of by a licensed Engineer. Etc.. General carpentry is a little bit different, but those with proper apprenticeships are considerably more likely to be better, but in that case, it's not a guarantee. The wikipedia article you presented as evidence has some troubling issues. Much of it is focused on the fact that 'without licensing' there's 'more growth' in the given field of employment, which is obvious and mostly beside the point: the issue is competence. When measuring quality they mention "find that occupational licensing of dentists does not lead to improved measured dental outcomes of patients, but is associated with higher price" - which is deeply disingenuous because it's likely related to specific kinds of licensing as oppose do the 'material issue of competence' which is the fact said dentists actually attended dental school. Can you imagine for a second someone giving you fillings, scrips, pulling out teeth, x-rays without having gone to dentistry school? What the state needs to do is make clear which occupations are licensed, which are not, and the kinds of work that can be done otherwise. Replacing a doorknob or a water faucet may be a bridge too far for licensing requirements, but doing anything 'load-bearing' for example might be within the purview of regulation.
  - yostrovs 7y ago
    Please speak for yourself. I do my own electric work and I can use an app to create an eye glasses prescription, though electricians have to be licensed and optometrist are only ones that can write a glasses script. How about filling up your car with gasoline? Do you do it yourself or have a professional do it safely instead for you?
    - Psyladine 7y ago
      >You definitely want your doctor, optometrist, dentist to be licensed. >>Please speak for yourself. 90% of any profession can be jury rigged by almost anyone. The remaining 10%, including the liability behind their actions, is why they get paid to do it for a living. If you want to superglue your wounds and run your own electrical grid more power to you, but none of us are islands and you live within an insulated bubble created by the professional standards of those around you.
      - yostrovs 7y ago
        Superglue is used in medicine, including heart surgery, to bind tissues.
    - jariel 7y ago
      "How about filling up your car with gasoline? Do you do it yourself or have a professional do it safely instead for you?" Yes, why don't you go have your appendix taken out by someone who 'saw a video on youtube'.
  - fnordfnordfnord 7y ago
    Effective regulation might be okay. Then maybe people like former Dr. Christopher Duntsch wouldn't be able to practice for years, killing and maiming dozens of patients.
    - jariel 7y ago
      Seriously? That's your logic? Here on HN? So let's just let anyone be a doctor then? Tell you what: let's divide North America into two parts - you take the 'anyone with a pair of pliers can be a doctor 1/2' and I'll take the 'actual trained doctor 1/2' and we'll see how it works out.

pjkundert 7y ago

As the cities go dark, meddling bureaucrats will go to sleep hungry and cold, but warmed by the knowledge that they crushed someone who knew how those nasty hammers, wrenches and saws worked. The world is a safer place.

vkou 7y ago
It's not the bureaucrats that want this legislature, it's licensed tradespeople who want it, so that unlicensed tradespeople don't take work from them. You should be turning your ire at the hammer-swingers, wrench-turners, and saw-operators.
- thrill 7y ago
  Hammer swingers don't legislate.
  - pas 7y ago
    They pay lobbyists to influence those who do. Also they might/can be very vocal, like unions. That is power to affect legislation.

vvanders 7y ago

> where undercover deputies filmed them performing or agreeing to perform prohibited tasks like painting ... Okay, electrical work I get but... painting? So glad we're protected from rogue... painters.

protomyth 7y ago
If you want the truly bizarre (read protectionist), check out lawmakers reasons for licensed interior designers.
lazulicurio 7y ago
My guess would be for having to properly handle and dispose of leaded paint in older homes.
ken 7y ago
I was just on a job which was initially scheduled to include painting. The SDS for the primer was 17 pages long. We had to fit and train on respirators. We had to develop methods to keep the paint from spilling while transported around our work environment, and how to store and dispose of it at the end of the day. Eventually, the painting went to another crew (whew). I saw painters on site wearing full bunny suits. I don’t know if licensing helps here (I have no government license to paint in my state) but I would not want any random person to think any paint is as easy to use as any other. Just because it doesn’t cause immediate damage doesn’t mean it can’t cause serious damage.

onetimemanytime 7y ago

Sign that they are overstaffed. Imagine the resources spent to go after these guys.

SN76477 7y ago
Yes As I keep saying the expense of perusing crimes should be evaluated like you would evaluate any expense. Blindly going after anything just creates more problems.
- onetimemanytime 7y ago
  I don't agree 100% on that because some crimes terrorize communities and nothing should be spared to fight them. But to jail house painters without a license? When one can go to Home Depot, buy the stuff and do it by himself. They need to prioritize and if they have come to this, it means that the county is very safe and xx% of cops have nothing to do. So fire them.
jacobush 7y ago
Or that the other stuff is harder, more boring and dangerous to do. God knows I have embarked on some "safe" projects once in a while in the office to avoid the dogs.

ErikAugust 7y ago

Without looking, let's take a guess as to where this happened. Florida?

aneutron 7y ago
I was thinking the exact same thing.

jimnotgym 7y ago

Can I ask any legal expert to explain the difference between this and entrapment?

Fezzik 7y ago
For it to be entrapment the government would have to have induced/coerced the actual behavior of operating without a license. These arrests are the same as if a cop buys drugs from dealer and then arrests the dealer: the dealer goofed and can probably be charged with a crime since there is no coercion from the officer for the behavior. Entrapment is a defense to a crime, and in most (all?) states requires the accused to prove they would not have committed the crime but-for the persuasion of the government (usually a police officer/federal agent type, but not always). It is generally true that if the government merely sets the stage for someone to commit a crime that does not rise to the level of entrapment - there has to be more coercive behavior for it to be entrapment. Here is a good background story on entrapment... and how the defense almost never works: https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2010/12/portland_bomb_plot_case_likely.html https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2010/12/portland_bomb_pl... Edit: slight clarity improvement.
- kbenson 7y ago
  Given this tidbit, it seems less clear cut: Frequently, she says, officers will hire a handyman on the pretext of performing work that doesn't need a license, and then during the course of the job ask them to do something that does, like unhooking a toilet or laying some tiles. "When the handyman says no, then the undercover detective moves the conversation to something else and then comes back to the question later in a different way," says Sammis. "By the time the handyman gets to the location, they want to make the homeowner happy and end up agreeing to perform work that they didn't intend on doing when they first arrived. The undercover detective[s] are just creating a crime that probably wouldn't occur otherwise."
  - true_religion 7y ago
    I want to make you happy doesn’t sound like an affirmative defense for committing a crime, especially when you are getting paid to do that crime.

function_seven 7y ago

This burns me up: > These 118 con men and women were posing as contractors & preying on innocent homeowners in Hillsborough County, who were just looking to repair or improve their home," said Hillsborough County Sheriff Chad Chronister I am almost certain that's not what happened. Unless they each lied about having a contractors' license when asked, they didn't "pose" as anything, and aren't conning anyone. Based on the examples in this article, is there anything that doesn't require a license to do? Unhooking a toilet is apparently an advanced skill in Florida. I guess this is my reminder to give some more to www.ij.org

ravenstine 7y ago
> Based on the examples in this article, is there anything that doesn't require a license to do? Ironically, software development.
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
  I mean, it's not like planes are falling out of the sky, we don't need standards and licenses.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    Planes do have standards
    - kick 7y ago
      That's the joke. (Made more obvious by the fact that the 737 MAX controversy was over a software issue.)
      - silon42 7y ago
        The MAX is a system design issue... for reliability it should probably include at least a third AoA sensor.
      - 7y ago

bjt2n3904 7y ago

Arrested? Good grief. This should be a fine, at most. Maybe if they claimed to be licensed and weren't, or forged documents that said they were... But this sounds like nonsense.

backupcavalry 7y ago
Prison industrial complex needs its ultracheap labour one way or another.

droithomme 7y ago

Why should house and fence painting require licensing? I hire people. If they are removing a tree, replacing septic lines, doing electrical work, I want to see they are licensed, bonded, and insured. If their lackey screws up and hurts himself I want their insurance to pay. If the tree falls the wrong way and destroys my house I want their insurance to pay. This is why I always ask them about their bonding and insurance and need to see evidence of each. Many never come back after I ask for that! But if I'm hiring someone for painting, it's different. Anyone can do that okay. Along with minor household repairs.

lazulicurio 7y ago
As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, leaded paint can be a major health hazard in older homes.
masonic 7y ago
You're fine with lead paint nite being properly remediated and instead aerosolized through your neighborhood, then? And asbestos fibers?

joshfraser 7y ago

Sigh. If only we cared half as much about real problems plaguing America.

aj7 7y ago

In Florida, the following scam is common. A person obtains a bonafide General contractor’s license. Using technicalities, he avoids insurance requirements. (This is trivial.) He sets up an office in a strip mall or his home. Then, numerous unlicensed individuals work “under” him. He may or may not make a specialty of obtaining permits.

nitrogen 7y ago
Is that actually a scam? It sounds like a contracting agency.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- threatofrain 7y ago
  It also sounds like small office accounting.
- aj7 7y ago
  It’s totally a scam, but it’s legal. If the entrepreneur has incorporated, he probably can’t be sued. What’s more, he doesn’t have to pay a penny in workman’s comp, because Florida has loopholes which permit multiple levels of “independent contractors” with only the top guy having a license, and a specific form letting the top guy absolve himself of responsibility for his “subs.” One guy got so good at this scam that he had a LinkedIn page and an IOS app you could download. Florida’s codes contain numerous devices like this. Most prominent is the “Notice of Non-Representation” that your buyer’s agent will get you to sign, just just just before closing.

ur-whale 7y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tbVRC_oOTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tbVRC_oOTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSLy3mtpq2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSLy3mtpq2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lFwAp8f5kU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lFwAp8f5kU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2otD8mmZsyA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2otD8mmZsyA

wokkel 7y ago

What bothers me most about this is the statement: "including several who had past criminal convictions". The whole reason to put people in jail is to punish them. After they did their time the original crime should not be held against them. Not so in the usa where it's once a thief always a thief.

londons_explore 7y ago
"several" - is that more or less than expected in the public at large?
- FarAdvance4 7y ago
  According to the article, it was 8. 8 had prior convictions. The other 110 were "first time offenders."
yostrovs 7y ago
Isn't a murderer who served his time still a murderer after release? Wouldn't you be careful around him?
- smileypete 7y ago
  Maybe a bit better than an unknown murderer who may have recently committed a crime. For an example a third of murders in the US now go unsolved: https://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/395069137/open-cases-why-one-third-of-murders-in-america-go-unresolved?t=1580994780388 https://www.npr.org/2015/03/30/395069137/open-cases-why-one-...
- beerandt 7y ago
  So run a background check on the people you hire, if that's important to you. But it has nothing to do with technical ability. And do you think licensed contractors aren't hiring ex-cons to work for them? Generally only the owner or supervisors are required to be licensed, not all employees.

belorn 7y ago

Things might be different in the US. The reason why Sweden has similar regulations comes down to relative simple reasons. The state want homeowners to have home insurance in case something bad happen that would result in the state/city having to step in and pay for it, such as a fire. Insurance companies want lower risks (and might also be pressured by the state to have lower rates). They want everything that is covered by the home insurance to be installed by a licensed contractor, and in the case the contractor is at fault, they want them to have insurance against mistakes. And thus the government create licensed tradespeople to facilitate the above. Unhooking a toilet is not hard, but home insurance covers water damage. Sweden also has a lot of social safety nets so in the case that someones home get destroyed the city is required to help them. Requirements for home insurance moves some of that risk onto insurance companies.

londons_explore 7y ago
Your reasoning depends on the added cost of licensed tradespeople being less than the added damage caused by unlicensed tradespeople. I suspect that is not true.
- mcv 7y ago
  I suspect it's not true as long as licenses are required, but as soon as no licenses are required anymore, it could very quickly become true.
smileypete 7y ago
You don't necessarily need licensing for liability issues, just a requirement for contractors to carry public indemnity insurance and only work within its terms.
- belorn 7y ago
  It is not necessary but the situation that the government sits at is tricky. Intervention like sending out fire trucks or giving health care is usually paid upfront by the government, as is social support aid in the case the homeowner become homeless. If neither the contractor nor the homeowner can pay it will be up to the government to foot the bill. In theory, if insurance companies would give out public indemnity insurance to unlicensed contractors then it would lower the risk for the government, assuming the coverage is broad enough. It also assumes that the cost of getting such public indemnity insurance is lower than getting a license, or contractors would just get the license instead.

znpy 7y ago

> prohibited tasks like painting or installing recess lighting Does anyone have to add anything?

killaken2000 7y ago

That's great and all but how was their work?

yostrovs 7y ago

How would one know ahead of time what requires licensing and what doesn't? Does applying wallpaper? What about cleaning the clothes dryer's exhaust pipe? Electric is obvious, but did the accused here actually know that tiling and painting requires a license?

throwawaymanbot 7y ago

this is just imbecilic. But we reap what we sow. Welcome to American Capitalism in 2020.