4 ms·

> The "racism" probably comes from description of the black riders, but black describes their clothes; [...] I think you're hung up on the wrong idea for 'rac

by crux_ 16y ago

> The "racism" probably comes from description of the black riders, but black describes their clothes; [...] I think you're hung up on the wrong idea for 'racism' here -- I don't believe that Tolkien was necessarily drawing explicit parallels to skin color, and I don't think that's the right place to look for racism. I do, however, believe that the single trait which is most fully described any given character is that of their race (as in 'hobbit/orc/human/elf'). It's usually the first thing you learn about them, often before their name. When an important character acts, the author nearly always takes care to point out their action as (a)typical of their racial tendencies. And so on. In other words, LoTR is deeply racist in the simple sense that the author prioritised race above individuality.

Tycho 16y ago
But in a fictional world where different races have various magical powers and vastly different anatomies, a character's race (or rather species) rather does define a lot about them from the reader's perspective. I mean do episodes of Star Trek go 'this is Bob, the sentient space nebula - he has two kids and likes to drink with his friends at the weekend' ? LoTR no doubt does have some collectivist/nationalist/whaterverist trappings, but I find it completely unfair the way people call Tolkien racist by juxtaposing some modern and inanalagous ethnicity debate onto his fictional world.
- crux_ 16y ago
  RE: Star Trek: Yes, they do that -- only it's Isabella, the sentient space nebula, not Bob. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_Friend_%28Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_Friend_%28Star_Trek:_... I think you can fairly call Tolkien racist without bringing an external debate into it -- the fact is that as an author he spent an inordinate number of pages establishing racial heritage, and his characters are deeply straitjacketed by their race.
pbhjpbhj 16y ago
>I do, however, believe that the single trait which is most fully described any given character is that of their race (as in 'hobbit/orc/human/elf'). It's usually the first thing you learn about them, often before their name. When an important character acts, the author nearly always takes care to point out their action as (a)typical of their racial tendencies. And so on. Funny but I assume that the different character groups are species and not races of one species. Species tend to have specific traits that define them.

by crux_ 16y ago

Tycho 16y ago

But in a fictional world where different races have various magical powers and vastly different anatomies, a character's race (or rather species) rather does define a lot about them from the reader's perspective. I mean do episodes of Star Trek go 'this is Bob, the sentient space nebula - he has two kids and likes to drink with his friends at the weekend' ? LoTR no doubt does have some collectivist/nationalist/whaterverist trappings, but I find it completely unfair the way people call Tolkien racist by juxtaposing some modern and inanalagous ethnicity debate onto his fictional world.

crux_ 16y ago
RE: Star Trek: Yes, they do that -- only it's Isabella, the sentient space nebula, not Bob. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_Friend_%28Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_Friend_%28Star_Trek:_... I think you can fairly call Tolkien racist without bringing an external debate into it -- the fact is that as an author he spent an inordinate number of pages establishing racial heritage, and his characters are deeply straitjacketed by their race.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago

>I do, however, believe that the single trait which is most fully described any given character is that of their race (as in 'hobbit/orc/human/elf'). It's usually the first thing you learn about them, often before their name. When an important character acts, the author nearly always takes care to point out their action as (a)typical of their racial tendencies. And so on. Funny but I assume that the different character groups are species and not races of one species. Species tend to have specific traits that define them.