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I can't imagine being friends with someone who is this incapable of communicating. The solution to this problem is sending a text that says, "Hey, I'm not feel

I can't imagine being friends with someone who is this incapable of communicating. The solution to this problem is sending a text that says, "Hey, I'm not feeling like coming out today after all. Rain check?" This app is a worse solution than the obvious solution. Trying to be empathetic: if you feel the need to use something like this, I'm not qualified to diagnose you as having social anxiety, but I would suggest you talk to someone who is qualified to diagnose you with social anxiety.

hosh 7y ago
I agree. The protocol works, but it does avoid emotional honesty. If this is a chronic thing, then perhaps there are some unsaid things that need to be said between the friends. For others reading this, I suggest a book called Crucial Conversations. If bailing out is a proxy for deeper issues in the friendship, maybe it is time to have a good chat about it.
- kazinator 7y ago
  > If this is a chronic thing, then perhaps there are some unsaid things that need to be said between the friends. I have an idea for that! How about an app where you can write things to your friend, which are held in the system's escrow. "unsaidthings.io" Then a machine learning algorithm compares them for similarity/reciprocity. If they are similar, then the escrow is released, otherwise neither person knows whether the other submitted anything at all, or whether they did and it was different. The prototype can skip the machine learning algorithm and instead let the people select from one of 64 possible messages that are compared according to a static table. Or else be allowed to compose sentences out of fragments guided by a "writing assistant" which guides their structure into possibilities that are easy to analyze.
  - bradthater 7y ago
    Make sure to mention this one next time there is a thread about project ideas!
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    No, this fundamentally is misunderstanding the problem. Unreciprocated ideas are exactly the kind of things that need to be addressed most for honest relationships.
  - dllthomas 7y ago
    I've wanted an escrow for messages containing spoilers.
saber6 7y ago
To be fair I think this falls into the category of "ugh I'm not really feeling like going out... and I don't want to disappoint my friend.... if only I knew he wasn't too hot to trot tonight as well..." But I understand your point and agree with you. I prefer direct communication. If you don't want to hang out just say so - I like clarity.
- crdoconnor 7y ago
  in those instances I'm almost always glad I went afterwards even if I wasn't feeling "hot to trot" before.
kazinator 7y ago
But this app doesn't send any notification to the other person unless they also bail, so it is not equivalent to sending that text. If the other person doesn't bail, you can stick with the commitment. That opens possibilities, like getting a better opinion about time spent with that person.
- kelnos 7y ago
  That... also sounds worse. This is all just advocating for not actually communicating with your friends. That's not friendship, that's transactional hanging-out.
  - madamelic 7y ago
    The optimal choice for using this app is to always bail. I mean, if you don't bail, the other person(s) might not want to be there. If "the double bail" does occur; more time to hang out with other people or be alone.
    - omarhaneef 7y ago
      I can imagine two friends who love each others company and desperately want to hang out keep canceling plans because they have the app set to let the other one out. They each end up spending time with more demanding people who don’t care what they want. (Because this is the internet: kidding. The app can work, just be honest with the app at least)
    - sandoooo 7y ago
      This is exactly Prisoner's Dilemma and all relevant literature applies. Iterate a few times with a large population and the optimal strategy goes to all sorts of weird places.
      - kerkeslager 7y ago
        Well, in the Prisoner's Dilemma is that you can't communicate or trust each other: you're assuming everyone acts in self-interest. ...which is exactly the opposite of the assumption I make with my friends, especially when the stakes are this low.
danShumway 7y ago
I think you might be underestimating: A) the number of degrees of discomfort between, "I can talk about this any time with no effort", and "I literally can't talk about this". B) how normal it is for certain types of people to struggle with this kind of interaction in general. On the first point, I am perfectly capable of being frank with friends. I am perfectly capable of telling them how I feel. And when I need to have confrontational conversations with friends, I do. But that's not the same thing as feeling no aversion or worry at all about disappointing someone. And if a crutch exists that mitigates part of that problem, I just don't see the harm in that crutch. There are dozens of tiny, inessential affordances everyone gives themselves every day to help manage non-crippling problems. That's normal. It shouldn't be weird to anyone that people with even mild anxiety around friendships might want similar affordances. Sometimes it's not about necessity, people just want a tool that makes their life easier. On the second note, I'm not going to go in depth here, but people who don't struggle with social anxiety usually don't understand how many other people do, or what their experiences are actually like. There's a pretty wide range of different annoyances or aversions that people can have about this stuff, and I really don't want to pretend to speak for other people. Some introverts don't struggle with this at all, some struggle in completely different areas. I am speaking in very broad generalities. But I consider these to be very common situations for someone like me: - going to an event I'd rather not just because I don't want to disappoint a friend or make them think I don't enjoy their company. - actively not inviting a friend to an event because I'm worried they'd only come out of obligation and would resent that I asked. - feeling like if I just express interest in changing plans a friend will accommodate me even though they had their heart set on something. I'm not going to say people like me are a majority: we're definitely not. But we're not that rare. If you've never had even a casual acquaintance like me, you're not looking very hard. > I can't imagine being friends with someone who is this incapable of communicating. I realize this is somewhat blunt and a little uncharitable, and I don't mean it as an attack or as a character flaw -- but in the general spirit of being confrontational and open: when I hear this, my immediate thought is, "this person probably doesn't have many introverted friends, and they probably don't have many deep, honest relationships with the few introverted friends they do have." Your perspective definitely isn't uncommon, and it shouldn't surprise me when I hear it, but I'm always surprised anyway. :) It's like seeing someone who lives in a completely different world, to the point where when they see the world I'm familiar with it's not just unexpected to them, but so unexpected that they think, "there must be something wrong with that."
gnulinux 7y ago
Ok. I think you're right, but I just want to point out that people who are inclined to do things like this experience irrational thoughts. Anxiety is not rational. It fills my mind with irrational thoughts. It makes me afraid of things that rationally do not pose any risk whatsoever. I understand that my social anxiety should be fixed and I should not be inclined to do something like this. Truth is, it's very hard to communicate everything well with people, I have no problem communicating most things to my friends, but some things are very hard. This seems to be always missing in this conversation.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
- gizmo 7y ago
  Somehow you equivocate being emphatic with being an awful communicator, specifically the type that says one thing when they actually mean something else entirely. It's completely normal -- and expected -- from good friends to join you for a beer or for some other activity they are not thrilled about in order to make you happy. And then you reciprocate, because that's what friends do. Your friends help you move not because they have nothing better to do, because they are your friends. It's silly for both parties to pretend they like to help each other move, and if you have a solid relationship they'll tell you how much they hate moving but you know they'll still show up.
gfodor 7y ago
I disagree, hear me out. The reason this app makes sense is because if you are an empathetic person, and know other empathetic people, there's actually no good way to solve this problem through direct communication. Lets say you have plans with someone. But then, you decide fundamentally: if the other person would still like to do this, I am happy to. But if not, I'd prefer not to. This is the game theoretic situation this app attempts to solve. Now lets figure out a way to solve this problem through direct communication. The problem with trying to do so, is often when someone expresses a change to preferences, if you assume that person is empathetic, they will likely be diluting the degree to their change insofar as that change could negatively affect the recipient of the news. Why? It's because there's a catch-22 in this situation between empathy and honesty. Empathy dictates we try to maximize utility between the parties. When expressing this new preference, if one is empathetic, one expresses it in a way to try to maximize the likelihood that the other party interprets it in a way they can still act selfishly to the maximally acceptable degree. However, the recipient of the information, if empathetic, can anticipate this, and hence may interpret the person's statement as pre-diluted, so in order to maximize utility from their perspective (out of empathy) they in turn may yield due to the imperfect information and assume the preference expressed is stronger than implied by the statement directly. In other words, if I hear this from someone, I put even odds that the person is being completely honest (out of valuing honesty), or, that they actually would really want to skip this plan if it would not cause me emotional pain, and have chosen to continue to express it in a way that leaves the option open (out of valuing empathy.) I know people who would do one or the other, and I don't consider either approach a sign of a moral failure. In reality, both sides of the communication wrangle with the conflict between empathy + utility maximization in framing their expression, and honesty, which (despite its virtue) runs the risk of being misinterpreted given the other party may assume it is being diluted to maximize utility out of their empathy. Diluting the statement or being direct about it are both rational, depending on how important maximizing utility is due to empathy vs expressing honest preferences. This app neatly solves this problem. It's not about reducing social awkwardness, it's about preventing the need for mutually-empathetic individuals to have to make trade-offs between the competing desires for objective communication (out of the value of honesty) and trying to maximize utility (out of the value of empathy and selflessness.) If one could be certain another party is being honest, this kind of technique would not be necessary, but since dishonesty in this situation falls out of empathy, its potentially virtuous and comes down to a preference of one's values in how to deal with the situation.
Reedx 7y ago
Agree this is not the solution (though I find it funny and clever), and I say that as someone with lifelong social anxiety. In fact I think it's counterproductive because you'd bail more often and get less practice with confronting and overcoming anxiety. Avoidance is really tempting, but not the answer.
fantasicferret 7y ago
I think it's quite funny, and you're taking it a little too serious.
m463 7y ago
You could sell the "flake metric" to advertisers. It would be valuable information to say, used car salesmen. They could look up a prospective customer wandering around the lot. If the customer asks for a test drive, check the "flake metric" and deny it for high flakers, who are probably just noncommittal tire-kickers. :)
- fantasicferret 7y ago
  now that is a novel idea!
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  I know it's snark, =) but.. Like most data collection, this is far too sparse a dataset to ever be useful.
ryandrake 7y ago
This reminds me of those apps that will call your phone so that you have an excuse to get out of a social interaction by pretending to have an emergency. Rather than, you know, being a grown-up and just telling the other person you have to cut things short for whatever reason.

hosh 7y ago

I agree. The protocol works, but it does avoid emotional honesty. If this is a chronic thing, then perhaps there are some unsaid things that need to be said between the friends. For others reading this, I suggest a book called Crucial Conversations. If bailing out is a proxy for deeper issues in the friendship, maybe it is time to have a good chat about it.

kazinator 7y ago
> If this is a chronic thing, then perhaps there are some unsaid things that need to be said between the friends. I have an idea for that! How about an app where you can write things to your friend, which are held in the system's escrow. "unsaidthings.io" Then a machine learning algorithm compares them for similarity/reciprocity. If they are similar, then the escrow is released, otherwise neither person knows whether the other submitted anything at all, or whether they did and it was different. The prototype can skip the machine learning algorithm and instead let the people select from one of 64 possible messages that are compared according to a static table. Or else be allowed to compose sentences out of fragments guided by a "writing assistant" which guides their structure into possibilities that are easy to analyze.
- bradthater 7y ago
  Make sure to mention this one next time there is a thread about project ideas!
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  No, this fundamentally is misunderstanding the problem. Unreciprocated ideas are exactly the kind of things that need to be addressed most for honest relationships.
- dllthomas 7y ago
  I've wanted an escrow for messages containing spoilers.

saber6 7y ago

To be fair I think this falls into the category of "ugh I'm not really feeling like going out... and I don't want to disappoint my friend.... if only I knew he wasn't too hot to trot tonight as well..." But I understand your point and agree with you. I prefer direct communication. If you don't want to hang out just say so - I like clarity.

crdoconnor 7y ago
in those instances I'm almost always glad I went afterwards even if I wasn't feeling "hot to trot" before.

kazinator 7y ago

But this app doesn't send any notification to the other person unless they also bail, so it is not equivalent to sending that text. If the other person doesn't bail, you can stick with the commitment. That opens possibilities, like getting a better opinion about time spent with that person.

kelnos 7y ago
That... also sounds worse. This is all just advocating for not actually communicating with your friends. That's not friendship, that's transactional hanging-out.
- madamelic 7y ago
  The optimal choice for using this app is to always bail. I mean, if you don't bail, the other person(s) might not want to be there. If "the double bail" does occur; more time to hang out with other people or be alone.
  - omarhaneef 7y ago
    I can imagine two friends who love each others company and desperately want to hang out keep canceling plans because they have the app set to let the other one out. They each end up spending time with more demanding people who don’t care what they want. (Because this is the internet: kidding. The app can work, just be honest with the app at least)
  - sandoooo 7y ago
    This is exactly Prisoner's Dilemma and all relevant literature applies. Iterate a few times with a large population and the optimal strategy goes to all sorts of weird places.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      Well, in the Prisoner's Dilemma is that you can't communicate or trust each other: you're assuming everyone acts in self-interest. ...which is exactly the opposite of the assumption I make with my friends, especially when the stakes are this low.

danShumway 7y ago

I think you might be underestimating: A) the number of degrees of discomfort between, "I can talk about this any time with no effort", and "I literally can't talk about this". B) how normal it is for certain types of people to struggle with this kind of interaction in general. On the first point, I am perfectly capable of being frank with friends. I am perfectly capable of telling them how I feel. And when I need to have confrontational conversations with friends, I do. But that's not the same thing as feeling no aversion or worry at all about disappointing someone. And if a crutch exists that mitigates part of that problem, I just don't see the harm in that crutch. There are dozens of tiny, inessential affordances everyone gives themselves every day to help manage non-crippling problems. That's normal. It shouldn't be weird to anyone that people with even mild anxiety around friendships might want similar affordances. Sometimes it's not about necessity, people just want a tool that makes their life easier. On the second note, I'm not going to go in depth here, but people who don't struggle with social anxiety usually don't understand how many other people do, or what their experiences are actually like. There's a pretty wide range of different annoyances or aversions that people can have about this stuff, and I really don't want to pretend to speak for other people. Some introverts don't struggle with this at all, some struggle in completely different areas. I am speaking in very broad generalities. But I consider these to be very common situations for someone like me: - going to an event I'd rather not just because I don't want to disappoint a friend or make them think I don't enjoy their company. - actively not inviting a friend to an event because I'm worried they'd only come out of obligation and would resent that I asked. - feeling like if I just express interest in changing plans a friend will accommodate me even though they had their heart set on something. I'm not going to say people like me are a majority: we're definitely not. But we're not that rare. If you've never had even a casual acquaintance like me, you're not looking very hard. > I can't imagine being friends with someone who is this incapable of communicating. I realize this is somewhat blunt and a little uncharitable, and I don't mean it as an attack or as a character flaw -- but in the general spirit of being confrontational and open: when I hear this, my immediate thought is, "this person probably doesn't have many introverted friends, and they probably don't have many deep, honest relationships with the few introverted friends they do have." Your perspective definitely isn't uncommon, and it shouldn't surprise me when I hear it, but I'm always surprised anyway. :) It's like seeing someone who lives in a completely different world, to the point where when they see the world I'm familiar with it's not just unexpected to them, but so unexpected that they think, "there must be something wrong with that."

gnulinux 7y ago

Ok. I think you're right, but I just want to point out that people who are inclined to do things like this experience irrational thoughts. Anxiety is not rational. It fills my mind with irrational thoughts. It makes me afraid of things that rationally do not pose any risk whatsoever. I understand that my social anxiety should be fixed and I should not be inclined to do something like this. Truth is, it's very hard to communicate everything well with people, I have no problem communicating most things to my friends, but some things are very hard. This seems to be always missing in this conversation.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gizmo 7y ago
Somehow you equivocate being emphatic with being an awful communicator, specifically the type that says one thing when they actually mean something else entirely. It's completely normal -- and expected -- from good friends to join you for a beer or for some other activity they are not thrilled about in order to make you happy. And then you reciprocate, because that's what friends do. Your friends help you move not because they have nothing better to do, because they are your friends. It's silly for both parties to pretend they like to help each other move, and if you have a solid relationship they'll tell you how much they hate moving but you know they'll still show up.

gfodor 7y ago

I disagree, hear me out. The reason this app makes sense is because if you are an empathetic person, and know other empathetic people, there's actually no good way to solve this problem through direct communication. Lets say you have plans with someone. But then, you decide fundamentally: if the other person would still like to do this, I am happy to. But if not, I'd prefer not to. This is the game theoretic situation this app attempts to solve. Now lets figure out a way to solve this problem through direct communication. The problem with trying to do so, is often when someone expresses a change to preferences, if you assume that person is empathetic, they will likely be diluting the degree to their change insofar as that change could negatively affect the recipient of the news. Why? It's because there's a catch-22 in this situation between empathy and honesty. Empathy dictates we try to maximize utility between the parties. When expressing this new preference, if one is empathetic, one expresses it in a way to try to maximize the likelihood that the other party interprets it in a way they can still act selfishly to the maximally acceptable degree. However, the recipient of the information, if empathetic, can anticipate this, and hence may interpret the person's statement as pre-diluted, so in order to maximize utility from their perspective (out of empathy) they in turn may yield due to the imperfect information and assume the preference expressed is stronger than implied by the statement directly. In other words, if I hear this from someone, I put even odds that the person is being completely honest (out of valuing honesty), or, that they actually would really want to skip this plan if it would not cause me emotional pain, and have chosen to continue to express it in a way that leaves the option open (out of valuing empathy.) I know people who would do one or the other, and I don't consider either approach a sign of a moral failure. In reality, both sides of the communication wrangle with the conflict between empathy + utility maximization in framing their expression, and honesty, which (despite its virtue) runs the risk of being misinterpreted given the other party may assume it is being diluted to maximize utility out of their empathy. Diluting the statement or being direct about it are both rational, depending on how important maximizing utility is due to empathy vs expressing honest preferences. This app neatly solves this problem. It's not about reducing social awkwardness, it's about preventing the need for mutually-empathetic individuals to have to make trade-offs between the competing desires for objective communication (out of the value of honesty) and trying to maximize utility (out of the value of empathy and selflessness.) If one could be certain another party is being honest, this kind of technique would not be necessary, but since dishonesty in this situation falls out of empathy, its potentially virtuous and comes down to a preference of one's values in how to deal with the situation.

Reedx 7y ago

Agree this is not the solution (though I find it funny and clever), and I say that as someone with lifelong social anxiety. In fact I think it's counterproductive because you'd bail more often and get less practice with confronting and overcoming anxiety. Avoidance is really tempting, but not the answer.

fantasicferret 7y ago

I think it's quite funny, and you're taking it a little too serious.

m463 7y ago

You could sell the "flake metric" to advertisers. It would be valuable information to say, used car salesmen. They could look up a prospective customer wandering around the lot. If the customer asks for a test drive, check the "flake metric" and deny it for high flakers, who are probably just noncommittal tire-kickers. :)

fantasicferret 7y ago
now that is a novel idea!
cameronbrown 7y ago
I know it's snark, =) but.. Like most data collection, this is far too sparse a dataset to ever be useful.

ryandrake 7y ago

This reminds me of those apps that will call your phone so that you have an excuse to get out of a social interaction by pretending to have an emergency. Rather than, you know, being a grown-up and just telling the other person you have to cut things short for whatever reason.