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> Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave. The asymmetr

> Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave. The asymmetry of experience is actually caused by child bearing, which can only be done by women. Maternal leave is downstream from that.

LatteLazy 7y ago
Right now all an employer sees is time off. In Finland that means there is no difference to the employer.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  I assume the health insurance costs of actually having a baby are quite non-trivial. Of course men tend to get e.g. heart attacks and the like, especially as they age, so I suppose it all balances out in the end.
  - LatteLazy 7y ago
    Yeah, plus (I think) insurers just quote a price per employee, not a price per man/woman etc. So maybe it's easier to "price" the cost of hiring a woman (maternity leave) than a man (heart attacks or whatever)...
  - frobozz 7y ago
    Fortunately Finland has a healthcare system, so there is no difference to the employer.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    In the US, health insurers can't take gender into account when setting premiums: https://www.healthcare.gov/how-plans-set-your-premiums/ https://www.healthcare.gov/how-plans-set-your-premiums/
kraigie 7y ago
Paternity leave is a lot easier to implement than artificial wombs.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  We could also stop pressuring women to conform to male standards of behavior and economic performance and instead celebrate the fact that they alone are able to perform the sacred work of growing and nurturing new human life. Then the “problem” that policies like this are trying to fix simply ceases to exist.
  - the_af 7y ago
    "Sacred"? It of course has lots of satisfactions -- why would you have babies otherwise? -- but it's also energy draining and it can drive mothers to exhaustion and a feeling of isolation that can lead to depression. And it's also bad for the fathers. Why wouldn't you want to spend more time with your kid? You made him/her, after all.
    - ip26 7y ago
      I'm not religious, but I suppose it is sacred after a fashion- to our species, whom without it, will quickly cease to exist.
      - i_haz_rabies 7y ago
        If anything is sacred, it seems like this would be it.
  - tlamponi 7y ago
    This is a framework to give both, father and mother, a choice. Nobody is pressured to take it, but they are able to if they want. That's the differences. Effectively it does away a implicit pressure that the mother needs to be home and the father needs to work, i.e., the contrary you suggest. Celebration does nothing to help any side of this, if facing reality when bringing up a child. Such improvements for equal chances allow to do that though. As said, nobody is forced too, if they do want to keep the "old fashioned roles", for whatever reason, sensible or not, they may still do so.
MaxBarraclough 7y ago
That doesn't seem right. If months of parental leave are granted to mothers but not to fathers (something not decided by who has the womb), we should expect to see motherhood being more damaging to a career than fatherhood. If parental leave is offered equally to mothers and fathers, we should expect the disparity to shrink, though probably not disappear entirely as the womb thing does still remain.
- jariel 7y ago
  " though probably not disappear entirely as the womb thing does still remain." The implication that gender, family, and children begin and end with mechanical differences like 'womb' is really reductionist. That we are trying to make things fairer for people is a good thing, but it's become so dogmatic we can't consider other ways of looking at it ... is bad. My prediction is that in 500 years, no matter what we do, we will still see quite substantial gender differentiation, particularly with respect to early childhood.
the_af 7y ago
Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is some sort of "vacation". As a new father: quality time with my baby is a huge deal and it's unfair that society expects the mom to do all the work (and spend all that time). I think this should be a concern for all fathers; I find my friends who don't prioritize this and dump it on the mother are behaving in an insensitive way. They get to work on "real stuff" and interact with other adults -- even commuting to work can feel like a respite from caring for a newborn -- and when they get home they don't understand why the mother is burned out and grumpy: "but you stayed at home while I worked, why are you so tired and upset?"
- sokoloff 7y ago
  > mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is some sort of "vacation" I don't think employers think or care that it's a "vacation" (the experience of the person taking the leave) but rather that it's "paid time off" (the experience of the business paying the leave).
  - throwaway55554 7y ago
    Surely retailers care about both of those. Most retailers keep N-1 enough employees on the payroll as it is.
- Nimitz14 7y ago
  A counterpoint: A friend of mine had a kid a year ago and he found it impossible to take care of the baby when he tried being the caretaker while the mom was away (can't breastfeed, milk in a bottle is not the same). The experience has convinced him equal parental leave is a terrible idea.
  - myle 7y ago
    Counter counter point: I am a father. Took 5 months off. Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. Diapers/food and so on can be taken care by both genders. It is not easy. Actually, at the end, I was looking forward to going back to work and sending my daughter to daycare, once she was 1 year old. It is possible though, and helped me grow up in a sense that I wouldn't have it I didn't go through it. It also helped us as a couple because I could understand what mom was going through in earlier months and also mom could understand that I am not useless at home and I can take care of our daughter.
tsukurimashou 7y ago
no it is not
bananamerica 7y ago
Fixed that for you: > AMONG OTHER THINGS, the asymmetry of experience is actually IN PART caused by child bearing

LatteLazy 7y ago

Right now all an employer sees is time off. In Finland that means there is no difference to the employer.

zozbot234 7y ago
I assume the health insurance costs of actually having a baby are quite non-trivial. Of course men tend to get e.g. heart attacks and the like, especially as they age, so I suppose it all balances out in the end.
- LatteLazy 7y ago
  Yeah, plus (I think) insurers just quote a price per employee, not a price per man/woman etc. So maybe it's easier to "price" the cost of hiring a woman (maternity leave) than a man (heart attacks or whatever)...
- frobozz 7y ago
  Fortunately Finland has a healthcare system, so there is no difference to the employer.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  In the US, health insurers can't take gender into account when setting premiums: https://www.healthcare.gov/how-plans-set-your-premiums/ https://www.healthcare.gov/how-plans-set-your-premiums/

kraigie 7y ago

Paternity leave is a lot easier to implement than artificial wombs.

toasterlovin 7y ago
We could also stop pressuring women to conform to male standards of behavior and economic performance and instead celebrate the fact that they alone are able to perform the sacred work of growing and nurturing new human life. Then the “problem” that policies like this are trying to fix simply ceases to exist.
- the_af 7y ago
  "Sacred"? It of course has lots of satisfactions -- why would you have babies otherwise? -- but it's also energy draining and it can drive mothers to exhaustion and a feeling of isolation that can lead to depression. And it's also bad for the fathers. Why wouldn't you want to spend more time with your kid? You made him/her, after all.
  - ip26 7y ago
    I'm not religious, but I suppose it is sacred after a fashion- to our species, whom without it, will quickly cease to exist.
    - i_haz_rabies 7y ago
      If anything is sacred, it seems like this would be it.
- tlamponi 7y ago
  This is a framework to give both, father and mother, a choice. Nobody is pressured to take it, but they are able to if they want. That's the differences. Effectively it does away a implicit pressure that the mother needs to be home and the father needs to work, i.e., the contrary you suggest. Celebration does nothing to help any side of this, if facing reality when bringing up a child. Such improvements for equal chances allow to do that though. As said, nobody is forced too, if they do want to keep the "old fashioned roles", for whatever reason, sensible or not, they may still do so.

MaxBarraclough 7y ago

That doesn't seem right. If months of parental leave are granted to mothers but not to fathers (something not decided by who has the womb), we should expect to see motherhood being more damaging to a career than fatherhood. If parental leave is offered equally to mothers and fathers, we should expect the disparity to shrink, though probably not disappear entirely as the womb thing does still remain.

jariel 7y ago
" though probably not disappear entirely as the womb thing does still remain." The implication that gender, family, and children begin and end with mechanical differences like 'womb' is really reductionist. That we are trying to make things fairer for people is a good thing, but it's become so dogmatic we can't consider other ways of looking at it ... is bad. My prediction is that in 500 years, no matter what we do, we will still see quite substantial gender differentiation, particularly with respect to early childhood.

the_af 7y ago

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is some sort of "vacation". As a new father: quality time with my baby is a huge deal and it's unfair that society expects the mom to do all the work (and spend all that time). I think this should be a concern for all fathers; I find my friends who don't prioritize this and dump it on the mother are behaving in an insensitive way. They get to work on "real stuff" and interact with other adults -- even commuting to work can feel like a respite from caring for a newborn -- and when they get home they don't understand why the mother is burned out and grumpy: "but you stayed at home while I worked, why are you so tired and upset?"

sokoloff 7y ago
> mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is some sort of "vacation" I don't think employers think or care that it's a "vacation" (the experience of the person taking the leave) but rather that it's "paid time off" (the experience of the business paying the leave).
- throwaway55554 7y ago
  Surely retailers care about both of those. Most retailers keep N-1 enough employees on the payroll as it is.
Nimitz14 7y ago
A counterpoint: A friend of mine had a kid a year ago and he found it impossible to take care of the baby when he tried being the caretaker while the mom was away (can't breastfeed, milk in a bottle is not the same). The experience has convinced him equal parental leave is a terrible idea.
- myle 7y ago
  Counter counter point: I am a father. Took 5 months off. Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. Diapers/food and so on can be taken care by both genders. It is not easy. Actually, at the end, I was looking forward to going back to work and sending my daughter to daycare, once she was 1 year old. It is possible though, and helped me grow up in a sense that I wouldn't have it I didn't go through it. It also helped us as a couple because I could understand what mom was going through in earlier months and also mom could understand that I am not useless at home and I can take care of our daughter.

tsukurimashou 7y ago

no it is not

bananamerica 7y ago

Fixed that for you: > AMONG OTHER THINGS, the asymmetry of experience is actually IN PART caused by child bearing