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Good job Finland! Fellow Nordic here (Norwegian) and a dad. The father quota here in Norway made a huge social change. It really helped make it socially accepta

Good job Finland! Fellow Nordic here (Norwegian) and a dad. The father quota here in Norway made a huge social change. It really helped make it socially acceptable for dads to spend more time with their children. I noticed for my two sons how much of a difference it makes being around your kids when they are young. You cannot cannot substitute short time with "quality time." The amount of time you are there matters a lot to small kids. I think it is healthy for children to have both a mother and father who is actively present in their lives. You need a gender equality oriented society for that. If women are offered poor pay and opportunities it encourages women to stay home the whole time while men do all the work. That is bad for both parties. Men see little of their kids and kids don't get the experience with dad that they benefit from. Meanwhile the mother may get a lot more time with the kids but she also suffers from having no career or independence. The relationship also suffers as one does not have a work life experience and child caring experience to share and talk about.

dairylee 7y ago
This was someone we definitely noticed about Norway when we were in Oslo for a week. There was so many dads just walking around the city/parks in the middle of the day pushing prams. It was so nice to see.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  sigh I suppose none of them have to deal with people dismissively describing spending time with their families as "babysitting", either.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    I clap back hard on that when people do it to me. No, I am not babysitting, I'm parenting. Thankfully, it seems to be happening less and less over time.
  - Moru 7y ago
    Nope, never heard that.
sandos 7y ago
Its also good for the dads! "Globally, paternity leave can increase fathers’ involvement within families and this has benefits for the children, the co-parent, the father himself, the economy and society." https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2019/06/16/involved-dads-are-healthier-and-happier https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2019/06/16/involved-d...
- the_af 7y ago
  It's definitely good for the dads. Quality time with my baby is huge; I can tell how she is bonding with me with each moment we spend together, and I despair that I don't get these extended leaves the Finns have.
HBKXNCUO 7y ago
>or independence. Why would you consider it to be an important goal for either parent to have "independence"? What is so wrong with being dependent on your spouse when raising children together that it should even come up as a consideration? Raising children well is hard enough and time consuming enough as it is. Why try to make it harder by also trying to make sure neither parent is dependent on the other?
- onion2k 7y ago
  It's far better to have it and not need it than to need it and not to have it.
  - HBKXNCUO 7y ago
    That doesn't mean that it's a good idea to have it.
- krastanov 7y ago
  I really do not understand the premise of your question. Yes, there is nothing wrong with one of the spouses being a home maker that is dependent on the monetary support of the professional spouse if this is what they want. But to turn your question around, what is so wrong with having other options!? Of course at the end being in a relationship and having kids is a partnership and people should rely on one another, nobody ever argues against that. But when people want, they should have the option to do it in a new way, especially if that leads to more opportunities and happiness.
  - HBKXNCUO 7y ago
    What is wrong with having other options is that there is a cost associated with maintaining those other options, and the children will be paying it one way or another. Raising children well is enormously time consuming and difficult. Parents who want to do a good job don't have the luxury of abundant time and energy. Any effort spent maintaining these other options is done at the expense of the children.
golemiprague 7y ago
Those couple of months in the beginning are not going to change the fact that right after that those kids are going to end up in some nursery because the women have to go to work just so the family can pay the rent. So instead of at least a mother being "actively present in their life" and a father that finish work at 5 we now got two parents working late just to make ends meet. Most of the women in the workforce are not creating any new businesses or jobs or anything of value, they are still sponsored by men work in all kind of myriad ways, unless working in some form of care taking, effectively outsourcing other women motherhood roles. That's why you got so much more problems these days with kids like ADHD and kids on the "spectrum". Feminism destroyed the western family, there is no way around it and no bandages are going to solve the issue. I can see how much time my parents generation had for us and how much we got today for our children, it is not getting any better, mothers are miserable and the rate of divorce or single motherhood are huge. We must think of a different way and stop sticking our head in the sand while patting our backs for this disaster.
rtkwe 7y ago
Yeah the system where parents can split the time sounds great but it kind of inevitably winds up with woman taking that majority of the time because ultimately it really makes sense if you have a zero-sum amount of hours to share for the woman to take most of it because she is the natural food source for the kid and has gone through the actual trauma of giving birth and ideally gets time to recover from that.
jimmaswell 7y ago
> I think it is healthy for children to have both a mother and father who is actively present in their lives. Not sure how literally this was meant (and a lot of the rest of the thread assuming a mother/father) but studies show kids do just as well with two parents of any gender.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  Not sure how literal your statement was meant, but some parents are non-gendered, non-binary. We shouldn't exclude them either. Every mention needs to include a long list of every possible combination, no matter how rare and edge case. /s
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    Inclusion is as simple as saying "parents" instead of "mother and father." If you'll read my post again you'll see the wording did include those groups. Maybe examine why you have such a violent knee jerk reaction to these groups being mentioned.
    - jjeaff 7y ago
      My comment was far from "violent" and knee jerk and had nothing to do with the groups in question. It was a parody of the woke virtue signalling that is trying to shame others for every possible perceived slight no matter the rarity of the edge case.
      - jimmaswell 7y ago
        At least 5 percent of the population is not a super rare edge case, and even if it was people who are edge cases still deserve recognition. Nobody was getting shamed either, it was just a consideration. If we had it your way we'd all be perpetually censored from bringing anything up that didn't immediately pertain to 99% of people. When someone says a wheelchair ramp should be built somewhere is your response that they should stop virtue signalling about edge cases and shaming the "normal" people, or is this response reserved for LGBT concerns?
conanbatt 7y ago
> The father quota here in Norway made a huge social change. It really helped make it socially acceptable for dads to spend more time with their children. If the parental leave policy were taken away, would parents take more or less time to spend with their kids than before the policy took place?
3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
> I noticed for my two sons how much of a difference it makes being around your kids when they are young. You cannot cannot substitute short time with "quality time." The amount of time you are there matters a lot to small kids. I agree as well, but not so much in the ages of 0-6 months. The biggest bonding for me when I was on parental leave was definitely with my older children, who I was now the primary caregiver. That time was really special and meaningful to all of us. Don’t get me wrong. I love holding my new born, but (for me) it wasn’t the same type of bonding experience.

dairylee 7y ago

This was someone we definitely noticed about Norway when we were in Oslo for a week. There was so many dads just walking around the city/parks in the middle of the day pushing prams. It was so nice to see.

mumblemumble 7y ago
sigh I suppose none of them have to deal with people dismissively describing spending time with their families as "babysitting", either.
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  I clap back hard on that when people do it to me. No, I am not babysitting, I'm parenting. Thankfully, it seems to be happening less and less over time.
- Moru 7y ago
  Nope, never heard that.

sandos 7y ago

Its also good for the dads! "Globally, paternity leave can increase fathers’ involvement within families and this has benefits for the children, the co-parent, the father himself, the economy and society." https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2019/06/16/involved-dads-are-healthier-and-happier https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2019/06/16/involved-d...

the_af 7y ago
It's definitely good for the dads. Quality time with my baby is huge; I can tell how she is bonding with me with each moment we spend together, and I despair that I don't get these extended leaves the Finns have.

HBKXNCUO 7y ago

>or independence. Why would you consider it to be an important goal for either parent to have "independence"? What is so wrong with being dependent on your spouse when raising children together that it should even come up as a consideration? Raising children well is hard enough and time consuming enough as it is. Why try to make it harder by also trying to make sure neither parent is dependent on the other?

onion2k 7y ago
It's far better to have it and not need it than to need it and not to have it.
- HBKXNCUO 7y ago
  That doesn't mean that it's a good idea to have it.
krastanov 7y ago
I really do not understand the premise of your question. Yes, there is nothing wrong with one of the spouses being a home maker that is dependent on the monetary support of the professional spouse if this is what they want. But to turn your question around, what is so wrong with having other options!? Of course at the end being in a relationship and having kids is a partnership and people should rely on one another, nobody ever argues against that. But when people want, they should have the option to do it in a new way, especially if that leads to more opportunities and happiness.
- HBKXNCUO 7y ago
  What is wrong with having other options is that there is a cost associated with maintaining those other options, and the children will be paying it one way or another. Raising children well is enormously time consuming and difficult. Parents who want to do a good job don't have the luxury of abundant time and energy. Any effort spent maintaining these other options is done at the expense of the children.

golemiprague 7y ago

Those couple of months in the beginning are not going to change the fact that right after that those kids are going to end up in some nursery because the women have to go to work just so the family can pay the rent. So instead of at least a mother being "actively present in their life" and a father that finish work at 5 we now got two parents working late just to make ends meet. Most of the women in the workforce are not creating any new businesses or jobs or anything of value, they are still sponsored by men work in all kind of myriad ways, unless working in some form of care taking, effectively outsourcing other women motherhood roles. That's why you got so much more problems these days with kids like ADHD and kids on the "spectrum". Feminism destroyed the western family, there is no way around it and no bandages are going to solve the issue. I can see how much time my parents generation had for us and how much we got today for our children, it is not getting any better, mothers are miserable and the rate of divorce or single motherhood are huge. We must think of a different way and stop sticking our head in the sand while patting our backs for this disaster.

rtkwe 7y ago

Yeah the system where parents can split the time sounds great but it kind of inevitably winds up with woman taking that majority of the time because ultimately it really makes sense if you have a zero-sum amount of hours to share for the woman to take most of it because she is the natural food source for the kid and has gone through the actual trauma of giving birth and ideally gets time to recover from that.

jimmaswell 7y ago

> I think it is healthy for children to have both a mother and father who is actively present in their lives. Not sure how literally this was meant (and a lot of the rest of the thread assuming a mother/father) but studies show kids do just as well with two parents of any gender.

jjeaff 7y ago
Not sure how literal your statement was meant, but some parents are non-gendered, non-binary. We shouldn't exclude them either. Every mention needs to include a long list of every possible combination, no matter how rare and edge case. /s
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  Inclusion is as simple as saying "parents" instead of "mother and father." If you'll read my post again you'll see the wording did include those groups. Maybe examine why you have such a violent knee jerk reaction to these groups being mentioned.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    My comment was far from "violent" and knee jerk and had nothing to do with the groups in question. It was a parody of the woke virtue signalling that is trying to shame others for every possible perceived slight no matter the rarity of the edge case.
    - jimmaswell 7y ago
      At least 5 percent of the population is not a super rare edge case, and even if it was people who are edge cases still deserve recognition. Nobody was getting shamed either, it was just a consideration. If we had it your way we'd all be perpetually censored from bringing anything up that didn't immediately pertain to 99% of people. When someone says a wheelchair ramp should be built somewhere is your response that they should stop virtue signalling about edge cases and shaming the "normal" people, or is this response reserved for LGBT concerns?

conanbatt 7y ago

> The father quota here in Norway made a huge social change. It really helped make it socially acceptable for dads to spend more time with their children. If the parental leave policy were taken away, would parents take more or less time to spend with their kids than before the policy took place?

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago

> I noticed for my two sons how much of a difference it makes being around your kids when they are young. You cannot cannot substitute short time with "quality time." The amount of time you are there matters a lot to small kids. I agree as well, but not so much in the ages of 0-6 months. The biggest bonding for me when I was on parental leave was definitely with my older children, who I was now the primary caregiver. That time was really special and meaningful to all of us. Don’t get me wrong. I love holding my new born, but (for me) it wasn’t the same type of bonding experience.