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I don't buy the "real world is complex deal with it" explanation. Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simpl

I don't buy the "real world is complex deal with it" explanation. Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simplify it. Your PC operating system complexity and the International Network of computers is so complex you cannot figure it all with your brain alone. Yet you write your email everyday with it and your colleague in China get's it in seconds. Your supply chain is a nightmare so SAP must be a nightmare to use ? Why ?

eitally 7y ago
You're asking the wrong question, really. SAP is a result of what's built when a software company is started to solve megascale business process automation problems. It is literally impossible to create a great user experience when developing software in or for enterprise IT departments, for a lot of reasons. 1. Budgetary restrictions 2. Quality of engineering teams 3. Lack of autonomy to make and enforce product functionality (or even UI) decisions 4. Competing stakeholders 5. Inconsistent workflows The chasm between product development at a "digital native" and how business software is created in captive IT are worlds apart (and my list doesn't even touch the added challenges when it's outsourced IT).
tomatocracy 7y ago
Traditional mortgage lending is actually a great example of 'adapt the business to the process'. Whereas you used to have local branch managers approving mortgages who knew their customers, now you have a credit score (and a thousand other metrics) and the job of the people in the branch/on the phone is to help their customers tailor their mortgage applications to meet the computer's requirements. It's literally the reverse of how it used to work.
MagnumOpus 7y ago
> Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simplify it. In this analogy the ERP system is the Stripe plumbing that simplifies it for the endpoints (factory logistics manager, salespersons etc) just like Stripe does for its endpoints (merchants and customers). You might find that re-implementing Stripe is not so simple because of the nightmares of naturally-grown international payment networks. Similarly, implementing an ERP system over an F500 company's logistics/manufacturing/sales pipeline that grew in a complex nightmarish fashion through M&A and diverse international legal/tax/regulatory frameworks.
- BlobRunner 7y ago
  Please note that I am not saying it is easy ! Far from it. I say it is possible to obtain something friendly that actaully help you get the job done. I discovered that Lidl spent 500 millions $ for nothing (literally) trying to implement SAP. Give 500 millions euros to a talented group of Stripe - like engineers and, maybe, you will have something sorted out and maintained for a few decades. Half a billion dollars.... 50 engineers well paid (5000$ net after taxes / month) cost 6 millions a year (France) With 500 millions your system can be build and maintained for a century.
  - _jal 7y ago
    Ah, but you're not just paying coders. You need tax lawyers to ensure you're doing that right. You need employment lawyers to ensure your termination process follows the law. You need accounting experts to ensure you're reporting correctly. In every legally distinct market. How many laws, regulations and reporting requirements does your average chemical plant comply with?
  - NikolaNovak 7y ago
    The press headlines of how much was spent on an IT system; as well as how much actually went to "coding" portion; in my experience can be sensationalized and wrong by several orders of magnitude. As indicated elsewhere, ERP implementations can go spectacularly badly - and I maintain my claim that treating them as an IT project, which your estimate/equations are doing, is the #1 way of setting them up for failure. In fact, I would imagine that the key work done at Stripe is not by talented engineers/coders with IT/systems knowledge (not to in any way put them down), but by business/financials/law/banking experts (who ideally would have some or lots of IT knowedge or background so as to not be dangerous). Again, think of our friendly neighbourhood patio11 as a perfect example of technical skills and hard-earned real-world business experience.
  - user5994461 7y ago
    Even if you're in France working for the worst staffing companies, the lowest bill for a developer is 400 E a day, times 218 working days per year so roughly $100k a year. So we're already starting at almost double what you planned for and there are much more costs to cover than just staff. Large scale projects are insanely expensive and hard. It's not just mismanagement.
mbesto 7y ago
> Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simplify it. Oh man, where do I start with this one. Calling Stripe banking is like calling a porpoise a fish. Sure they both swim in an ocean, but they are very different types of animals.
collyw 7y ago
> Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simplify it. Strip only handle a tiny fraction of what banks do.
- copperx 7y ago
  It's simpler than that: Stripe does the things that banks weren't even good at (APIs for programmatic payments).
NikolaNovak 7y ago
My understanding was that Stripe only does a very very small, specific portion of what "Banking" does, for a fairly specific subset and type of customers, for clearly defined types of transactions and needs. They were successful specifically because they would take well-defined, well-understood bites of the overall "Banking" problem that could be simplified, even at the cost of excluding the 1% or 0.1% "edge cases". I'm sure people here or Patio11 could correct me :) I feel the failure of extrapolation between Stripe and Banking is exactly the failure of imagination most IT folks have between "single or multi purpose application" and "Enterprise Resource Planning Application". One of the implementations I've worked on had 128 labour agreements. That's like 128 companies or ways of handling employees, in one. 10's of thousands of time and labour rules. Across 50+ government departments. A smart, focused company like Stripe would not touch that project with a 10,000 foot pole - but it still needs to be done :).

eitally 7y ago

You're asking the wrong question, really. SAP is a result of what's built when a software company is started to solve megascale business process automation problems. It is literally impossible to create a great user experience when developing software in or for enterprise IT departments, for a lot of reasons. 1. Budgetary restrictions 2. Quality of engineering teams 3. Lack of autonomy to make and enforce product functionality (or even UI) decisions 4. Competing stakeholders 5. Inconsistent workflows The chasm between product development at a "digital native" and how business software is created in captive IT are worlds apart (and my list doesn't even touch the added challenges when it's outsourced IT).

tomatocracy 7y ago

Traditional mortgage lending is actually a great example of 'adapt the business to the process'. Whereas you used to have local branch managers approving mortgages who knew their customers, now you have a credit score (and a thousand other metrics) and the job of the people in the branch/on the phone is to help their customers tailor their mortgage applications to meet the computer's requirements. It's literally the reverse of how it used to work.

MagnumOpus 7y ago

> Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simplify it. In this analogy the ERP system is the Stripe plumbing that simplifies it for the endpoints (factory logistics manager, salespersons etc) just like Stripe does for its endpoints (merchants and customers). You might find that re-implementing Stripe is not so simple because of the nightmares of naturally-grown international payment networks. Similarly, implementing an ERP system over an F500 company's logistics/manufacturing/sales pipeline that grew in a complex nightmarish fashion through M&A and diverse international legal/tax/regulatory frameworks.

BlobRunner 7y ago
Please note that I am not saying it is easy ! Far from it. I say it is possible to obtain something friendly that actaully help you get the job done. I discovered that Lidl spent 500 millions $ for nothing (literally) trying to implement SAP. Give 500 millions euros to a talented group of Stripe - like engineers and, maybe, you will have something sorted out and maintained for a few decades. Half a billion dollars.... 50 engineers well paid (5000$ net after taxes / month) cost 6 millions a year (France) With 500 millions your system can be build and maintained for a century.
- _jal 7y ago
  Ah, but you're not just paying coders. You need tax lawyers to ensure you're doing that right. You need employment lawyers to ensure your termination process follows the law. You need accounting experts to ensure you're reporting correctly. In every legally distinct market. How many laws, regulations and reporting requirements does your average chemical plant comply with?
- NikolaNovak 7y ago
  The press headlines of how much was spent on an IT system; as well as how much actually went to "coding" portion; in my experience can be sensationalized and wrong by several orders of magnitude. As indicated elsewhere, ERP implementations can go spectacularly badly - and I maintain my claim that treating them as an IT project, which your estimate/equations are doing, is the #1 way of setting them up for failure. In fact, I would imagine that the key work done at Stripe is not by talented engineers/coders with IT/systems knowledge (not to in any way put them down), but by business/financials/law/banking experts (who ideally would have some or lots of IT knowedge or background so as to not be dangerous). Again, think of our friendly neighbourhood patio11 as a perfect example of technical skills and hard-earned real-world business experience.
- user5994461 7y ago
  Even if you're in France working for the worst staffing companies, the lowest bill for a developer is 400 E a day, times 218 working days per year so roughly $100k a year. So we're already starting at almost double what you planned for and there are much more costs to cover than just staff. Large scale projects are insanely expensive and hard. It's not just mismanagement.

mbesto 7y ago

> Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simplify it. Oh man, where do I start with this one. Calling Stripe banking is like calling a porpoise a fish. Sure they both swim in an ocean, but they are very different types of animals.

collyw 7y ago

> Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simplify it. Strip only handle a tiny fraction of what banks do.

copperx 7y ago
It's simpler than that: Stripe does the things that banks weren't even good at (APIs for programmatic payments).

NikolaNovak 7y ago

My understanding was that Stripe only does a very very small, specific portion of what "Banking" does, for a fairly specific subset and type of customers, for clearly defined types of transactions and needs. They were successful specifically because they would take well-defined, well-understood bites of the overall "Banking" problem that could be simplified, even at the cost of excluding the 1% or 0.1% "edge cases". I'm sure people here or Patio11 could correct me :) I feel the failure of extrapolation between Stripe and Banking is exactly the failure of imagination most IT folks have between "single or multi purpose application" and "Enterprise Resource Planning Application". One of the implementations I've worked on had 128 labour agreements. That's like 128 companies or ways of handling employees, in one. 10's of thousands of time and labour rules. Across 50+ government departments. A smart, focused company like Stripe would not touch that project with a 10,000 foot pole - but it still needs to be done :).