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> So, let's cave in to peer pressure or management dictates and continue down the wrong path (technically/socially)? That's not alignment. For alignment to ha

> So, let's cave in to peer pressure or management dictates and continue down the wrong path (technically/socially)? That's not alignment. For alignment to happen, everybody should be on the same page. And any party can tank this if they refuse to negotiate. I read this as getting alignment between all parties is something that leads to successful projects and therefore is something that should require attention and effort to make happen. I've ruminated on Jeff Bezos/Amazon's "Disagree and commit" leadership philosophy a bit and think it pertains here. Leaders are obligated to respectfully challenge decisions when they disagree, even when doing so is uncomfortable or exhausting. Leaders have conviction and are tenacious. They do not compromise for the sake of social cohesion. Once a decision is determined, they commit wholly. [0] Where I think "leaders" is a quality of a person's actions, not a job title. [0]: https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles https://www.amazon.jobs/en/principles

pc86 7y ago
Just make sure you're negotiating the thing you're supposed to negotiate. I've been in meetings where junior or mid-level developers with minimal experience are arguing the merits of the business model with executives. I'm all for asking thoughtful questions but if you have 2 years of experience at a different company in a different industry, saying you don't think Product X is going to make money doesn't really qualify. Likewise, I wish "business folks"/product owners/whatever you want to call them would give a little more leeway on technical decisions to their technical team. We shouldn't be discussing choice of database tech or service architecture with a VP Finance.
- knightofmars 7y ago
  > I've been in meetings where junior or mid-level developers with minimal experience are arguing the merits of the business model with executives Oof. I'm a big supporter of questions not statements in these situations. I've witnessed people with this behavior, where a person makes claims and argues a point but doesn't have a clear understanding of the situation. They don't realize they're ignorant to a certain portion of information which they need to ask questions to learn about. This happens both with those with minimal experience as well as leadership. Though in the latter case I suspect it is not wanting to be perceived as not having grasp of a situation or being perceived as lacking in knowledge. Which is sad, as people who ask smart questions generally are the best leaders.
  - jimbokun 7y ago
    > Though in the latter case I suspect it is not wanting to be perceived as not having grasp of a situation or being perceived as lacking in knowledge. Ha, amateurs! One of the best techniques for making an argument is to ask a leading question that challenges some unstated assumptions. Allows the other party to provide clarifying information. Or if they don't have a good response, that makes your argument for you far more strongly than directly asserting your position would. So to further emphasize your point, nothing makes you look smarter than asking a really insightful question.
    - yencabulator 7y ago
      Unfortunately I've seen people blankly assume that because I asked (any) question, I don't understand (anything about) the topic.
- SubuSS 7y ago
  Whenever this happens (juniors questioning decisions which have a lot of context requirements that they don't have OR VPs from other departments questioning something core to my world) I look at it as a problem with myself not presenting the case in a convincing manner. The junior engineer is probably trying desperately hard to apply something he read in a book somewhere or hacker new the previous day. You will have to invest time to tease out the differences, ensure they feel listened to. The VP is probably trying to either catch you off foot to make a point he is itching to make to belong OR is trying to ensure you know what you are doing. Good senior folk build knowledge like a tree: Some branches are full and dense, some are bare - but overall they make up the whole tree. The bare branches here would be your core world and once they get a sense of you knowing what you're talking about, usually you should be fine. Bonus if you add to their knowledge without being defensive. RE time taken for this: I look at it as future investments. If it is a junior dev in my team OR a VP who can actually impact my day to day life, it is worth building that relationship where they get to a trusting spot. If it is a random person, I might just agree / nod my head and move on to wrap up the conversation. And yes there are bad actors everywhere - tough luck if it is the VP (happens), hopefully you can manage out the junior fella.
  - mark-r 7y ago
    RE trying to ensure you know what you are doing. This reminds me of one of my favorite stories about Bill Gates: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev...

pc86 7y ago

Just make sure you're negotiating the thing you're supposed to negotiate. I've been in meetings where junior or mid-level developers with minimal experience are arguing the merits of the business model with executives. I'm all for asking thoughtful questions but if you have 2 years of experience at a different company in a different industry, saying you don't think Product X is going to make money doesn't really qualify. Likewise, I wish "business folks"/product owners/whatever you want to call them would give a little more leeway on technical decisions to their technical team. We shouldn't be discussing choice of database tech or service architecture with a VP Finance.

knightofmars 7y ago
> I've been in meetings where junior or mid-level developers with minimal experience are arguing the merits of the business model with executives Oof. I'm a big supporter of questions not statements in these situations. I've witnessed people with this behavior, where a person makes claims and argues a point but doesn't have a clear understanding of the situation. They don't realize they're ignorant to a certain portion of information which they need to ask questions to learn about. This happens both with those with minimal experience as well as leadership. Though in the latter case I suspect it is not wanting to be perceived as not having grasp of a situation or being perceived as lacking in knowledge. Which is sad, as people who ask smart questions generally are the best leaders.
- jimbokun 7y ago
  > Though in the latter case I suspect it is not wanting to be perceived as not having grasp of a situation or being perceived as lacking in knowledge. Ha, amateurs! One of the best techniques for making an argument is to ask a leading question that challenges some unstated assumptions. Allows the other party to provide clarifying information. Or if they don't have a good response, that makes your argument for you far more strongly than directly asserting your position would. So to further emphasize your point, nothing makes you look smarter than asking a really insightful question.
  - yencabulator 7y ago
    Unfortunately I've seen people blankly assume that because I asked (any) question, I don't understand (anything about) the topic.
SubuSS 7y ago
Whenever this happens (juniors questioning decisions which have a lot of context requirements that they don't have OR VPs from other departments questioning something core to my world) I look at it as a problem with myself not presenting the case in a convincing manner. The junior engineer is probably trying desperately hard to apply something he read in a book somewhere or hacker new the previous day. You will have to invest time to tease out the differences, ensure they feel listened to. The VP is probably trying to either catch you off foot to make a point he is itching to make to belong OR is trying to ensure you know what you are doing. Good senior folk build knowledge like a tree: Some branches are full and dense, some are bare - but overall they make up the whole tree. The bare branches here would be your core world and once they get a sense of you knowing what you're talking about, usually you should be fine. Bonus if you add to their knowledge without being defensive. RE time taken for this: I look at it as future investments. If it is a junior dev in my team OR a VP who can actually impact my day to day life, it is worth building that relationship where they get to a trusting spot. If it is a random person, I might just agree / nod my head and move on to wrap up the conversation. And yes there are bad actors everywhere - tough luck if it is the VP (happens), hopefully you can manage out the junior fella.
- mark-r 7y ago
  RE trying to ensure you know what you are doing. This reminds me of one of my favorite stories about Bill Gates: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev...