6 ms·

Maybe this is demonstrates an immediate consequence of having a people (mainland China, not necessarily HK) that is governed primarily by fear: reactions of ext

by daenz 7y ago

Maybe this is demonstrates an immediate consequence of having a people (mainland China, not necessarily HK) that is governed primarily by fear: reactions of extreme subordination, which keep things running "smoothly" under normal conditions, can threaten the whole system to collapse under abnormal conditions.

user5994461 7y ago
It's not governed by fear, especially not hong kong. It's more of a cultural reaction that many went to the shop to gather food, detergent, face masks and more for the next month(s) so the shops have run out of things (plus many businesses and transports have closed). The panic wasn't driven by government decision but by people acting individually in concert. It's hard to tell if the same would happen in the US or Europe if and when the first few people will get infected by the virus.
- bhanhfo 7y ago
  Hongkong, as part of China, is unfortunately governed more and more by fear. Plus the lady in charge is refusing to close the border to China. Compare this to Taiwan, where things are more or less running smoothly. > if and when the first few people will get infected by the virus. ...that already happened
  - user5994461 7y ago
    I should say the first dozen(s) of cases in the same city. Hong Kong is past ten. I don't think any city in the EU or US is approaching that. Noting the Chinese population doesn't believe their government and estimates the numbers of infected to be at least 10 times whatever is reported. Also noting, Hong Kong was already in civil war right before the epidemic, remember it was being annexed by China. That's regular protests, transports/tubes/airports periodically closed and shops unable to resupply, so not everything is attributable to the virus.
    - monoideism 7y ago
      > Also noting, Hong Kong was already in civil war right before the epidemic, remember it was being annexed by China. I've been in countries at civil war (or coming out of a civil war). Hong Kong is not (yet) in a state of civil war. There's widespread civil unrest, which is often a precursor to civil war, but it's not there yet, by a long shot. Also, Hong Kong was annexed by China back in 1997. Understandably, Hong Kong is chafing under some of the laws China is imposing, and requirements for extradition to the mainland, but the annexation was done several decades ago.
pxue 7y ago
That’s like saying Florida is governed by fear because ppl are leaving and bunkering down when news of a big hurricane hits. Come on.
- aswanson 7y ago
  Have you read any "Florida Man" headlines? Florida has no concept of fear.
  - unforeseen9991 7y ago
    Yeah, but that's just due to the meth
    - alasdair_ 7y ago
      It’s mostly due to laws that make all police blotters (records of arrests and other incidents) in Florida open to the public immediately (and thus easy for journalists to mine for interesting stories). Couple that with a huge population and something weird will happen most days.
      - aswanson 7y ago
        I dunno man. I think any state would be hard-pressed to top this list: https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a26899191/florida-man-headlines-2019/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a26899191/florida-man-...
      - mcculley 7y ago
        As a 48 year old native Floridian who has traveled to less crazy states and countries, I do not believe our open records policies entirely explain the documented weirdness. The native born are a minority. Most of our population came here from somewhere else. I have been to the kinds of places from which they emigrate. To survive and thrive in places where it snows for a good chunk of the year requires a certain amount of keeping-your-shit-togetherness. In my experience, many immigrate to Florida or stay here because one can live relatively cheaply without ever planning ahead. This tilts our demographics toward the kinds of people who end up in Florida Man stories.
a_c 7y ago
HK has a dozen confirmed cases. Shenzhen, the city bordering HK, has a hundred confirmed cases. HK had experienced SARS, and the magnitude of the epidemic, in terms of number of infected globally, has already exceeded that of SARS. Together with government's inaction (HK government is refusing to close down its border where 60s country or so are now blocking entry from China). HK's medical system is overwhelmed by mainland patients. The nurses and doctors are orchestrrating a strike to urge government closing down its border before the epidemic go out of control. Last strike from medical professionals were 30 years ago to fight for better wage. This time for public good
- pmorici 7y ago
  NPR reporting from last night say's that HK is dealing with nearly 700 suspected cases. https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1223743600456060928 https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1223743600456060928
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    Daily reminder that the confirmed cases are limited by the capacity to confirm cases, not by the actual contagion.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      The estimate of likely infected people in China was somewhere between 37k and 130k as of January 25, and it is expected that the number of infected people will double roughly every six days, so assuming there has been no appreciable change to the pattern of spread, we can maybe back-of-the-napkin that somewhere around 75,000-280,000 people are probably infected.
      - pmohun 7y ago
        This website provides daily updates on the spread of the virus: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6 https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.h...
ineedasername 7y ago
Maybe outside of China we see it as "ruled by fear", but that's really not the case in China, at least for the majority: China doesn't try to make it's citizens afraid. Quite the opposite. Their modus operandi is "move along, nothing to see here, everything is fine." Indeed, that was their initial message to the public for this virus. So, the problem and partial cause of panic is when there is a problem that is very definitely not "nothing to see here", and the government is demonstrably, extremely wrong and perhaps incompetent. When so much is seen to be controlled by the government, a flaw in that armor is all the more worrying.
- daenz 7y ago
  China is a place where you can be locked to a chair and interrogated by police for social media comments critical of the state. Don't try to tell me it isn't a government ruled through fear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6uy12RpqQc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6uy12RpqQc
  - throw4r563s 7y ago
    That’s like saying Americans are in fear of being water boarded by the authorities. Chinese people in China are not afraid of the cops. If you see how Chinese people interact with cops, I bet you would be surprised. I regularly see people yelling and screaming at them, and the Chinese cops will still try to diffuse the situation.
    - gruez 7y ago
      >Chinese people in China are not afraid of the cops. If you see how Chinese people interact with cops, I bet you would be surprised. Perhaps they're not afraid of the cops on a daily basis, but they are afraid of the CCP. >That’s like saying Americans are in fear of being water boarded by the authorities. Guess where you can shit talk about the head of state and not end up in a re-education camp?
  - bllguo 7y ago
    Okay? And the US is a place where I can get brutalized, shot, and killed by the police based on.. nothing. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Chinese citizens are living lives thinking and worrying about the same kinds of things we do. Not cowering in fear bemoaning their lack of freedoms.
tanilama 7y ago
Hong Kong has its own separate system from mainland China, and it had went through long protest last year. So OP's friends leaving HK doesn't bear that much of an indication value anyway.

by daenz 7y ago

user5994461 7y ago

It's not governed by fear, especially not hong kong. It's more of a cultural reaction that many went to the shop to gather food, detergent, face masks and more for the next month(s) so the shops have run out of things (plus many businesses and transports have closed). The panic wasn't driven by government decision but by people acting individually in concert. It's hard to tell if the same would happen in the US or Europe if and when the first few people will get infected by the virus.

bhanhfo 7y ago
Hongkong, as part of China, is unfortunately governed more and more by fear. Plus the lady in charge is refusing to close the border to China. Compare this to Taiwan, where things are more or less running smoothly. > if and when the first few people will get infected by the virus. ...that already happened
- user5994461 7y ago
  I should say the first dozen(s) of cases in the same city. Hong Kong is past ten. I don't think any city in the EU or US is approaching that. Noting the Chinese population doesn't believe their government and estimates the numbers of infected to be at least 10 times whatever is reported. Also noting, Hong Kong was already in civil war right before the epidemic, remember it was being annexed by China. That's regular protests, transports/tubes/airports periodically closed and shops unable to resupply, so not everything is attributable to the virus.
  - monoideism 7y ago
    > Also noting, Hong Kong was already in civil war right before the epidemic, remember it was being annexed by China. I've been in countries at civil war (or coming out of a civil war). Hong Kong is not (yet) in a state of civil war. There's widespread civil unrest, which is often a precursor to civil war, but it's not there yet, by a long shot. Also, Hong Kong was annexed by China back in 1997. Understandably, Hong Kong is chafing under some of the laws China is imposing, and requirements for extradition to the mainland, but the annexation was done several decades ago.

pxue 7y ago

That’s like saying Florida is governed by fear because ppl are leaving and bunkering down when news of a big hurricane hits. Come on.

aswanson 7y ago
Have you read any "Florida Man" headlines? Florida has no concept of fear.
- unforeseen9991 7y ago
  Yeah, but that's just due to the meth
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    It’s mostly due to laws that make all police blotters (records of arrests and other incidents) in Florida open to the public immediately (and thus easy for journalists to mine for interesting stories). Couple that with a huge population and something weird will happen most days.
    - aswanson 7y ago
      I dunno man. I think any state would be hard-pressed to top this list: https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a26899191/florida-man-headlines-2019/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a26899191/florida-man-...
    - mcculley 7y ago
      As a 48 year old native Floridian who has traveled to less crazy states and countries, I do not believe our open records policies entirely explain the documented weirdness. The native born are a minority. Most of our population came here from somewhere else. I have been to the kinds of places from which they emigrate. To survive and thrive in places where it snows for a good chunk of the year requires a certain amount of keeping-your-shit-togetherness. In my experience, many immigrate to Florida or stay here because one can live relatively cheaply without ever planning ahead. This tilts our demographics toward the kinds of people who end up in Florida Man stories.

a_c 7y ago

HK has a dozen confirmed cases. Shenzhen, the city bordering HK, has a hundred confirmed cases. HK had experienced SARS, and the magnitude of the epidemic, in terms of number of infected globally, has already exceeded that of SARS. Together with government's inaction (HK government is refusing to close down its border where 60s country or so are now blocking entry from China). HK's medical system is overwhelmed by mainland patients. The nurses and doctors are orchestrrating a strike to urge government closing down its border before the epidemic go out of control. Last strike from medical professionals were 30 years ago to fight for better wage. This time for public good

pmorici 7y ago
NPR reporting from last night say's that HK is dealing with nearly 700 suspected cases. https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1223743600456060928 https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1223743600456060928
- microcolonel 7y ago
  Daily reminder that the confirmed cases are limited by the capacity to confirm cases, not by the actual contagion.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    The estimate of likely infected people in China was somewhere between 37k and 130k as of January 25, and it is expected that the number of infected people will double roughly every six days, so assuming there has been no appreciable change to the pattern of spread, we can maybe back-of-the-napkin that somewhere around 75,000-280,000 people are probably infected.
    - pmohun 7y ago
      This website provides daily updates on the spread of the virus: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6 https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.h...

ineedasername 7y ago

Maybe outside of China we see it as "ruled by fear", but that's really not the case in China, at least for the majority: China doesn't try to make it's citizens afraid. Quite the opposite. Their modus operandi is "move along, nothing to see here, everything is fine." Indeed, that was their initial message to the public for this virus. So, the problem and partial cause of panic is when there is a problem that is very definitely not "nothing to see here", and the government is demonstrably, extremely wrong and perhaps incompetent. When so much is seen to be controlled by the government, a flaw in that armor is all the more worrying.

daenz 7y ago
China is a place where you can be locked to a chair and interrogated by police for social media comments critical of the state. Don't try to tell me it isn't a government ruled through fear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6uy12RpqQc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6uy12RpqQc
- throw4r563s 7y ago
  That’s like saying Americans are in fear of being water boarded by the authorities. Chinese people in China are not afraid of the cops. If you see how Chinese people interact with cops, I bet you would be surprised. I regularly see people yelling and screaming at them, and the Chinese cops will still try to diffuse the situation.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >Chinese people in China are not afraid of the cops. If you see how Chinese people interact with cops, I bet you would be surprised. Perhaps they're not afraid of the cops on a daily basis, but they are afraid of the CCP. >That’s like saying Americans are in fear of being water boarded by the authorities. Guess where you can shit talk about the head of state and not end up in a re-education camp?
- bllguo 7y ago
  Okay? And the US is a place where I can get brutalized, shot, and killed by the police based on.. nothing. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Chinese citizens are living lives thinking and worrying about the same kinds of things we do. Not cowering in fear bemoaning their lack of freedoms.

tanilama 7y ago

Hong Kong has its own separate system from mainland China, and it had went through long protest last year. So OP's friends leaving HK doesn't bear that much of an indication value anyway.