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Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid,

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up. They don't feel "UBI" is like having a long vacation and a meaningful life. budget: (notice that the mom can afford a $1000/month apartment) https://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/politik/danskpolitik/article4062920.ece https://ekstrabladet.dk/nyheder/politik/danskpolitik/article...

Ididntdothis 7y ago
They may feel less depressed if there wasn’t a stigma associated with this. On the other hand a lot of people wouldn’t be working if there wasn’t societal pressure on them.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  Yes, plenty of people retire without loosing all sense of self worth.
  - fegu 7y ago
    The reason for this is maybe captured by the adage "better a have-been than a never-will-be"
- gremlinsinc 7y ago
  Why does everybody need to work? Less workers ALSO drives up pay because supply/demand. It also could propel the U.S. to a 30 hour work week or even 25 which would be more in tune with our ancestors (Middle Ages averaged 18 hour weeks).
armitron 7y ago
Serious citation(s) needed rather than personal conjecture / tabloid posts.
jakelazaroff 7y ago
I can’t read the article, so forgive me if that’s backed by research rather than just anecdata, but… is that really an issue people would have? I would love UBI, because it would transform what I could do with my time. Instead of working 9–5 on software for a company, I could build whatever I want. There are tons of app ideas floating around in my head that I just don’t have time to build. And I could release them for free or cheap, because my survival wouldn’t depend on them being profitable. With UBI, I would expect to see many more people building open–source software. I would expect many more going into the arts. I would expect many more doing volunteer work. There are so many fulfilling and valuable things to do that are not easily profitable!
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  > "...is that really an issue people would have?" Hell, yes. There are a vast number of low-education people with what the HN crowd would call "old fashioned attitudes". From https://archive.is/CCTXs#selection-1205.100-1205.363 https://archive.is/CCTXs#selection-1205.100-1205.363: "'Being a man means supporting your family,' says Mr Davis. 'You’ve got to do whatever it takes so they eat, [or] you’re no man at all.' Being a man, says Mr Redden, means you 'work hard, provide for your kids, have a car and [maybe] get your own house some day.'" What would UBI do for them? It isn't going to fulfill their emotional or spiritual needs. (What they really need is a universal jobs program, IMO.) > "With UBI, I would expect to see many more people building open–source software. I would expect many more going into the arts. I would expect many more doing volunteer work. There are so many fulfilling and valuable things to do that are not easily profitable!" Funny, then why aren't people on public assistance already doing all these things you imagine? As others have noted, EU nations provide benefits better than any UBI proposal likely to succeed in the US. So where is this magical wave of creativity? Could it be (shock, horror) that the vast majority of people don't have the creativity to build things or make art and don't feel they would be fulfilled by volunteer work?
  - silvestrov 7y ago
    It's not only low-educated people who suffer. Highly educated people like lawyers also suffer from self-doubt and stress, e.g. thinking "there must be something wrong with me since nobody wants to hire me". The "lawyers union" in Denmark asked 127 unemployed lawyers who recently graduated. 65% percent responded that unemployement "to a large degree" negatively affect their everyday lives. Only 3% responded that they are not affected at all. (in Danish) https://www.djoefbladet.dk/artikler/2013/8/ledighed-kan-kn-ae-kke-alle.aspx https://www.djoefbladet.dk/artikler/2013/8/ledighed-kan-kn-a... So even people who are highly educated and for whom it should be easy to do a lot of fulfilling activity, still wants a job. They talk about the emotional burden, they don't talk about wanting more money.
8bitsrule 7y ago
>Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life Lots of people know what they'd like to do with their lives which would be important for (some) 'other people'. But often, those pursuits are not likely to be highly profitable soon ... if ever. (Many, many famous creatives never got to enjoy their fame.) Most of them will never be able to afford to (happily, creatively, eagerly) pursue what they'd prefer. Not when they must invest (unhappily, dully, compulsively) most of their energies keeping body-and-soul-together while helping others fulfill their dreams. We can do better.
Mirioron 7y ago
>Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Is this alimony/child support? And if it isn't, does alimony and child support not exist in Denmark?
ablekh 7y ago
I agree with you that purpose in life is very important. However, your assumption above about Denmark is not supported by The World Happiness Report (https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019 https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019): both in 2019 and 2018, Denmark was at the very top (the 2nd place, after Finland). One could argue that many, if not the most, people, not having to work or having to work less at a normal job, might very well express themselves (and contribute significant societal value) by participating in entrepreneurship, innovation, part-time employment, creative arts & crafts, caring for their kids and/or senior family members, volunteering and much more.
retsibsi 7y ago
> Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. > But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up. How would these people feel without the money, though? Presumably this group is at high risk for depression to begin with, and alleviating their material deprivation may well be doing a lot of good, even if their average life satisfaction is still not great. (This doesn't mean there's no better way, but I would be really wary of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here.)

Ididntdothis 7y ago

They may feel less depressed if there wasn’t a stigma associated with this. On the other hand a lot of people wouldn’t be working if there wasn’t societal pressure on them.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
Yes, plenty of people retire without loosing all sense of self worth.
- fegu 7y ago
  The reason for this is maybe captured by the adage "better a have-been than a never-will-be"
gremlinsinc 7y ago
Why does everybody need to work? Less workers ALSO drives up pay because supply/demand. It also could propel the U.S. to a 30 hour work week or even 25 which would be more in tune with our ancestors (Middle Ages averaged 18 hour weeks).

armitron 7y ago

Serious citation(s) needed rather than personal conjecture / tabloid posts.

jakelazaroff 7y ago

I can’t read the article, so forgive me if that’s backed by research rather than just anecdata, but… is that really an issue people would have? I would love UBI, because it would transform what I could do with my time. Instead of working 9–5 on software for a company, I could build whatever I want. There are tons of app ideas floating around in my head that I just don’t have time to build. And I could release them for free or cheap, because my survival wouldn’t depend on them being profitable. With UBI, I would expect to see many more people building open–source software. I would expect many more going into the arts. I would expect many more doing volunteer work. There are so many fulfilling and valuable things to do that are not easily profitable!

ThrowawayR2 7y ago
> "...is that really an issue people would have?" Hell, yes. There are a vast number of low-education people with what the HN crowd would call "old fashioned attitudes". From https://archive.is/CCTXs#selection-1205.100-1205.363 https://archive.is/CCTXs#selection-1205.100-1205.363: "'Being a man means supporting your family,' says Mr Davis. 'You’ve got to do whatever it takes so they eat, [or] you’re no man at all.' Being a man, says Mr Redden, means you 'work hard, provide for your kids, have a car and [maybe] get your own house some day.'" What would UBI do for them? It isn't going to fulfill their emotional or spiritual needs. (What they really need is a universal jobs program, IMO.) > "With UBI, I would expect to see many more people building open–source software. I would expect many more going into the arts. I would expect many more doing volunteer work. There are so many fulfilling and valuable things to do that are not easily profitable!" Funny, then why aren't people on public assistance already doing all these things you imagine? As others have noted, EU nations provide benefits better than any UBI proposal likely to succeed in the US. So where is this magical wave of creativity? Could it be (shock, horror) that the vast majority of people don't have the creativity to build things or make art and don't feel they would be fulfilled by volunteer work?
- silvestrov 7y ago
  It's not only low-educated people who suffer. Highly educated people like lawyers also suffer from self-doubt and stress, e.g. thinking "there must be something wrong with me since nobody wants to hire me". The "lawyers union" in Denmark asked 127 unemployed lawyers who recently graduated. 65% percent responded that unemployement "to a large degree" negatively affect their everyday lives. Only 3% responded that they are not affected at all. (in Danish) https://www.djoefbladet.dk/artikler/2013/8/ledighed-kan-kn-ae-kke-alle.aspx https://www.djoefbladet.dk/artikler/2013/8/ledighed-kan-kn-a... So even people who are highly educated and for whom it should be easy to do a lot of fulfilling activity, still wants a job. They talk about the emotional burden, they don't talk about wanting more money.

8bitsrule 7y ago

>Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life Lots of people know what they'd like to do with their lives which would be important for (some) 'other people'. But often, those pursuits are not likely to be highly profitable soon ... if ever. (Many, many famous creatives never got to enjoy their fame.) Most of them will never be able to afford to (happily, creatively, eagerly) pursue what they'd prefer. Not when they must invest (unhappily, dully, compulsively) most of their energies keeping body-and-soul-together while helping others fulfill their dreams. We can do better.

Mirioron 7y ago

>Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Is this alimony/child support? And if it isn't, does alimony and child support not exist in Denmark?

ablekh 7y ago

I agree with you that purpose in life is very important. However, your assumption above about Denmark is not supported by The World Happiness Report (https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019 https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019): both in 2019 and 2018, Denmark was at the very top (the 2nd place, after Finland). One could argue that many, if not the most, people, not having to work or having to work less at a normal job, might very well express themselves (and contribute significant societal value) by participating in entrepreneurship, innovation, part-time employment, creative arts & crafts, caring for their kids and/or senior family members, volunteering and much more.

retsibsi 7y ago

> Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. > But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up. How would these people feel without the money, though? Presumably this group is at high risk for depression to begin with, and alleviating their material deprivation may well be doing a lot of good, even if their average life satisfaction is still not great. (This doesn't mean there's no better way, but I would be really wary of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here.)