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> Airbus for years conducted a “massive scheme to offer and pay bribes”, involving very senior executives, according to disclosures in courts in Washington DC,

> Airbus for years conducted a “massive scheme to offer and pay bribes”, involving very senior executives, according to disclosures in courts in Washington DC, Paris and London, as Europe’s aerospace champion agreed to pay €3.6bn in penalties to regulators in France, the UK and the US. So nobody went to jail, though

tehwebguy 7y ago
Yeah, I guess the punishment for a bunch of bribes is just having to pay one more bribe?
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  That's the way it work now. If they get caught it just means they pay the government a bribe[1] to stay out of jail. With the other peoples money no less. They themselves never pay a cent.
justinclift 7y ago
> US and UK authorities are considering prosecutions against individuals. Perhaps it'll happen. :)
- ekianjo 7y ago
  Keyword is "considering"
ekianjo 7y ago
Nobody goes to jail for "lobbying" in the US while it is clearly about the same thing as bribery. Just a legal form of it.
- manfredo 7y ago
  While lobbyists have sometimes bribed officials through gifts and perks, which is illegal, lobbying is not bribery. Say you're interesting in promoting renewable energy. You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians, explaining its benefits. This activity is lobbying for renewable energy.
  - jjoonathan 7y ago
    Not only is lobbying bribery by another name, the realities of campaign finance make ours a system of mandatory bribery rather than mere moral corruption.
  - eeeficus 7y ago
    What a demagogic way of phrasing it! So no money ends up in the account of future election campaigns?
    - vintermann 7y ago
      Money isn't even the worst of it at this level. It's about networking, and what you can ask for. A top politician doesn't need to be bribed when they understand perfectly well that if they happen to need a little pocket money, they can just come and hold a speech for six figures. If the money will be there when you need it, there's only risk in letting it lie in your bank account. Likewise, blackmail. People imagine envelopes with incriminating pictures. But that kind of blackmail rarely gets used, because once you've given in to it, then what? The blackmail will still hang over your head. You'll serve the blackmailer for life. At that point the victim may think they have little to lose. (Relevant regarding Donald Trump. He has far too much ego to serve someone else for life, even if there was some "Moscow tape"). Instead, the blackmail that's powerful is the one that the victim knows will cost the blackmailer a lot to use. The understanding that if I go down, you all go down with me, is a lot more useful to make us come to an agreement. That's probably how Epstein got away with things for so long.
      - nloladze 7y ago
        Careful, you might get censored.
        meowface 7y ago
        What? Why? No, they won't.
      - perl4ever 7y ago
- legitster 7y ago
  This is patently untrue. A lobbyist is just anybody who meets with an elected official on behalf of a group. There are perfectly legitimate lobbyists, and many depending on the group they may even be volunteers. It just so happens that the lobbyists that get the most attention are those that represent the most powerful groups. But equating it with bribery is completely misleading.
  - cryptica 7y ago
    >> There are perfectly legitimate lobbyists This is BS. Lobbyists serve the companies they work for and nobody else. There have been many cases of lobbyists getting fired for not sticking to the corporate agenda even on small matters. It's institutionalized corruption. The hypothetical 'legitimate lobbyists' are 'low performers' and they don't stick around very long. Either they will be underpaid and quit or they'll be fired outright.
    - blago 7y ago
      > Lobbyists serve the companies they work for and nobody else. So do lawyers. Defendants pay them to meet with prosecutors and judges. This is not evidence of corruption. It's a process.
  - ekianjo 7y ago
    > Foreign-funded lobbying efforts include those of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, and China lobbies. In 2010 alone, foreign governments spent approximately $460 million on lobbying members of Congress and government officials. From Wikipedia. So spending 460M USD on public officials. Was it simply to have 1:1 conversations with politicians?
    - akho 7y ago
      That figure seems a bit low. So you have 535 members of Congress. Other govt officials (State, trade and aid agencies, ...) foreign powers have a legitimate interest in meeting probably brings that figure to a 1000. Congresspeople have aides, staff, &c — who also need to be dined. To maintain the whole show, you need to have your own staff — well-educated, worldly people — who need to be paid, need offices to work in, .... I don’t think anyone buys yachts from this.
- onetimemanytime 7y ago
  Bribery: Mr. Minister, buy from us 42 airplanes for $4.8 Billion and 800 Million will be deposited in off shore accounts of your choosing. Lobbying: Senator, my clients would like that the recent changes in the tax code stay as they are but the deduction on ....is increased. (maybe a dinner or a small campaign contribution, as other lobbyists will oppose this one) Very, very different.
  - atoav 7y ago
    Lobbyists usually call it "robust conversations" and that certainly involves giving money to politicians and other forms of quid pro quos. Institutionalized bribery.
  - parsimo2010 7y ago
    Lobbying: Senator, I hope you enjoyed this really nice dinner we cooked for you. Also, you are free to use this yacht (which is worth $800 million but we’ll just day it’s worth a couple bucks to keep the ethics committee happy) any time you please. No, this isn’t a bribe, the registration and taxes for the yacht will remain with our company but you can use it whenever you desire as long as you continue to help pass laws that are favorable to us. We’ll even write the legalese for how the laws should read. Not so different. Granted, honest lobbying does occur at some levels (my friend’s dad lobbies for firefighters at state legislators), but there are some really scummy corporate lobby activities that look like bribery with extra steps.
    - onetimemanytime 7y ago
      >>Also, you are free to use this yacht (which is worth $800 million but we’ll just day it’s worth a couple bucks to keep the ethics committee happy) any time you please. Weird. Can you name one case where this happened? https://ethics.house.gov/travel/travel-connection-official-duties-paid-private-source https://ethics.house.gov/travel/travel-connection-official-d... https://www.ethics.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/gifts https://www.ethics.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/gifts
    - jjeaff 7y ago
      Seems like you're just imagining how things might happen. Your example would be a clear violation of congressional rules regarding lobbying.
- pacamara619 7y ago
  It's not bribery - those are "Robust Conversations".
- macspoofing 7y ago
  No, lobbying is not bribery. Where is this meme coming from? It surfaced recently (from the progressive echo-chamber maybe?) as a fact when it's a complete distortion.
ryanlol 7y ago
Is bribery really harmful enough to necessitate custodial sentences? Especially in the EU, where our criminal justice systems aren’t nearly as unreasonable as in the US.
- misja111 7y ago
  Bribery is forbidden by law, for obvious reasons. A law is useless if it is not somehow enforced. One could enforce it by holding the company accountable, however history has shown that this does not withhold individuals from breaking the law for personal gain. (Remember Enron or the credit crisis) So that's why there are custodial sentences for bribery.
  - ryanlol 7y ago
    >A law is useless if it is not somehow enforced Airbus is getting huge fines, how is that not enforcement? Custodial sentences aren’t and shouldn’t be the only way of enforcing the law.
    - misja111 7y ago
      The fines are bad for Airbus but the individuals who committed the crimes don't have to pay anything, what's more, they probably have already cashed their bonuses. So fines for only the company are not enough to prevent these lucrative crimes from happening again in the future.
    - timwaagh 7y ago
      well the bribing was done by people. The company is an abstract entity that merely exists as a convenience for doing business and paying taxes. those people who did the actual bribing aren't being held liable, instead getting to hide behind the abstract entity for some reason. instead they hold the company liable and say 'just give us our cut and we will have done our jobs and we can shut up about it'. Of course Airbus isn't exactly operating in an ideal market and europe needs to do everything to avoid becoming irrelevant in the face of competition from american companies which are funded with military money, but this kind of 'justice' is not exactly what people imagine when they first hear about the concept.
chrisseaton 7y ago
> So nobody went to jail, though What is with this demented obsession on HN with sending people to jail? The response to any misbehaviour is 'send someone to jail!' Nobody even seems particularly concerned who goes to jail - it's usually just 'someone needs to do to jail for this.'
- fractal618 7y ago
  What do you suggest?
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    Something useful like service to the community? They aren't physically dangerous people. They don't need to be isolated for anyone's safety.
    - mcv 7y ago
      I'm all for giving overpaid CEOs a couple of days or weeks of community service. The problem with only giving fines, is that those fines are usually a lot smaller than the actual money and profits involved, and it's not really punishment for the people who commited the crime, just cost of business for the company they work for. Unless executive start getting held accountable for the crimes their company commits on their watch, they'll just continue doing this.

tehwebguy 7y ago

Yeah, I guess the punishment for a bunch of bribes is just having to pay one more bribe?

Gibbon1 7y ago
That's the way it work now. If they get caught it just means they pay the government a bribe[1] to stay out of jail. With the other peoples money no less. They themselves never pay a cent.

justinclift 7y ago

> US and UK authorities are considering prosecutions against individuals. Perhaps it'll happen. :)

ekianjo 7y ago
Keyword is "considering"

ekianjo 7y ago

Nobody goes to jail for "lobbying" in the US while it is clearly about the same thing as bribery. Just a legal form of it.

manfredo 7y ago
While lobbyists have sometimes bribed officials through gifts and perks, which is illegal, lobbying is not bribery. Say you're interesting in promoting renewable energy. You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians, explaining its benefits. This activity is lobbying for renewable energy.
- jjoonathan 7y ago
  Not only is lobbying bribery by another name, the realities of campaign finance make ours a system of mandatory bribery rather than mere moral corruption.
- eeeficus 7y ago
  What a demagogic way of phrasing it! So no money ends up in the account of future election campaigns?
  - vintermann 7y ago
    Money isn't even the worst of it at this level. It's about networking, and what you can ask for. A top politician doesn't need to be bribed when they understand perfectly well that if they happen to need a little pocket money, they can just come and hold a speech for six figures. If the money will be there when you need it, there's only risk in letting it lie in your bank account. Likewise, blackmail. People imagine envelopes with incriminating pictures. But that kind of blackmail rarely gets used, because once you've given in to it, then what? The blackmail will still hang over your head. You'll serve the blackmailer for life. At that point the victim may think they have little to lose. (Relevant regarding Donald Trump. He has far too much ego to serve someone else for life, even if there was some "Moscow tape"). Instead, the blackmail that's powerful is the one that the victim knows will cost the blackmailer a lot to use. The understanding that if I go down, you all go down with me, is a lot more useful to make us come to an agreement. That's probably how Epstein got away with things for so long.
    - nloladze 7y ago
      Careful, you might get censored.
      - meowface 7y ago
        What? Why? No, they won't.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
legitster 7y ago
This is patently untrue. A lobbyist is just anybody who meets with an elected official on behalf of a group. There are perfectly legitimate lobbyists, and many depending on the group they may even be volunteers. It just so happens that the lobbyists that get the most attention are those that represent the most powerful groups. But equating it with bribery is completely misleading.
- cryptica 7y ago
  >> There are perfectly legitimate lobbyists This is BS. Lobbyists serve the companies they work for and nobody else. There have been many cases of lobbyists getting fired for not sticking to the corporate agenda even on small matters. It's institutionalized corruption. The hypothetical 'legitimate lobbyists' are 'low performers' and they don't stick around very long. Either they will be underpaid and quit or they'll be fired outright.
  - blago 7y ago
    > Lobbyists serve the companies they work for and nobody else. So do lawyers. Defendants pay them to meet with prosecutors and judges. This is not evidence of corruption. It's a process.
- ekianjo 7y ago
  > Foreign-funded lobbying efforts include those of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, and China lobbies. In 2010 alone, foreign governments spent approximately $460 million on lobbying members of Congress and government officials. From Wikipedia. So spending 460M USD on public officials. Was it simply to have 1:1 conversations with politicians?
  - akho 7y ago
    That figure seems a bit low. So you have 535 members of Congress. Other govt officials (State, trade and aid agencies, ...) foreign powers have a legitimate interest in meeting probably brings that figure to a 1000. Congresspeople have aides, staff, &c — who also need to be dined. To maintain the whole show, you need to have your own staff — well-educated, worldly people — who need to be paid, need offices to work in, .... I don’t think anyone buys yachts from this.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
Bribery: Mr. Minister, buy from us 42 airplanes for $4.8 Billion and 800 Million will be deposited in off shore accounts of your choosing. Lobbying: Senator, my clients would like that the recent changes in the tax code stay as they are but the deduction on ....is increased. (maybe a dinner or a small campaign contribution, as other lobbyists will oppose this one) Very, very different.
- atoav 7y ago
  Lobbyists usually call it "robust conversations" and that certainly involves giving money to politicians and other forms of quid pro quos. Institutionalized bribery.
- parsimo2010 7y ago
  Lobbying: Senator, I hope you enjoyed this really nice dinner we cooked for you. Also, you are free to use this yacht (which is worth $800 million but we’ll just day it’s worth a couple bucks to keep the ethics committee happy) any time you please. No, this isn’t a bribe, the registration and taxes for the yacht will remain with our company but you can use it whenever you desire as long as you continue to help pass laws that are favorable to us. We’ll even write the legalese for how the laws should read. Not so different. Granted, honest lobbying does occur at some levels (my friend’s dad lobbies for firefighters at state legislators), but there are some really scummy corporate lobby activities that look like bribery with extra steps.
  - onetimemanytime 7y ago
    >>Also, you are free to use this yacht (which is worth $800 million but we’ll just day it’s worth a couple bucks to keep the ethics committee happy) any time you please. Weird. Can you name one case where this happened? https://ethics.house.gov/travel/travel-connection-official-duties-paid-private-source https://ethics.house.gov/travel/travel-connection-official-d... https://www.ethics.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/gifts https://www.ethics.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/gifts
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    Seems like you're just imagining how things might happen. Your example would be a clear violation of congressional rules regarding lobbying.
pacamara619 7y ago
It's not bribery - those are "Robust Conversations".
macspoofing 7y ago
No, lobbying is not bribery. Where is this meme coming from? It surfaced recently (from the progressive echo-chamber maybe?) as a fact when it's a complete distortion.

ryanlol 7y ago

Is bribery really harmful enough to necessitate custodial sentences? Especially in the EU, where our criminal justice systems aren’t nearly as unreasonable as in the US.

misja111 7y ago
Bribery is forbidden by law, for obvious reasons. A law is useless if it is not somehow enforced. One could enforce it by holding the company accountable, however history has shown that this does not withhold individuals from breaking the law for personal gain. (Remember Enron or the credit crisis) So that's why there are custodial sentences for bribery.
- ryanlol 7y ago
  >A law is useless if it is not somehow enforced Airbus is getting huge fines, how is that not enforcement? Custodial sentences aren’t and shouldn’t be the only way of enforcing the law.
  - misja111 7y ago
    The fines are bad for Airbus but the individuals who committed the crimes don't have to pay anything, what's more, they probably have already cashed their bonuses. So fines for only the company are not enough to prevent these lucrative crimes from happening again in the future.
  - timwaagh 7y ago
    well the bribing was done by people. The company is an abstract entity that merely exists as a convenience for doing business and paying taxes. those people who did the actual bribing aren't being held liable, instead getting to hide behind the abstract entity for some reason. instead they hold the company liable and say 'just give us our cut and we will have done our jobs and we can shut up about it'. Of course Airbus isn't exactly operating in an ideal market and europe needs to do everything to avoid becoming irrelevant in the face of competition from american companies which are funded with military money, but this kind of 'justice' is not exactly what people imagine when they first hear about the concept.

chrisseaton 7y ago

> So nobody went to jail, though What is with this demented obsession on HN with sending people to jail? The response to any misbehaviour is 'send someone to jail!' Nobody even seems particularly concerned who goes to jail - it's usually just 'someone needs to do to jail for this.'

fractal618 7y ago
What do you suggest?
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  Something useful like service to the community? They aren't physically dangerous people. They don't need to be isolated for anyone's safety.
  - mcv 7y ago
    I'm all for giving overpaid CEOs a couple of days or weeks of community service. The problem with only giving fines, is that those fines are usually a lot smaller than the actual money and profits involved, and it's not really punishment for the people who commited the crime, just cost of business for the company they work for. Unless executive start getting held accountable for the crimes their company commits on their watch, they'll just continue doing this.