6 ms·

There is a recently opened P4 biolab in Wuhan within miles of the seafood market in question, with researchers who have recently been working with and publishin

There is a recently opened P4 biolab in Wuhan within miles of the seafood market in question, with researchers who have recently been working with and publishing on the topic of Corona viruses, including research on human transmission. Not to be sensationalist, and personally I think the title is alarmist, but are a number of suspicious elements to this story that are worth examining: https://medium.com/@siradrianbond/coronavirus-2019-ncov-part-1-d6a338eed7c5 https://medium.com/@siradrianbond/coronavirus-2019-ncov-part...

Fomite 7y ago
- Every laboratory exposure-related outbreak I've encountered has been trivially easy to trace back to that event. - Most high-end virology labs are doing research on human to human transmission of corona viruses. They're a major emerging type of virus we don't understand, and a Chinese lab working on them is even less surprising. - If this was a bioweapon, it sucks.
- izzydata 7y ago
  Originating from a lab doesn't necessarily mean it is a weapon. Only that they have poor sterilization or something.
  - Fomite 7y ago
    Points one and two are originating in a lab as a general principle. Only point three is addressing the mutated version of this rumor, which is that it's a bioweapons lab.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    yeah close proxmity changes everything, mistakes are not impossible. ..
- dk1138 7y ago
  Trivially easy to trace, sure. But the Chinese government bay be highly motivated to prevent disclosing or allowing discovery of that.
- baddox 7y ago
  The ones that are too difficult to trace wouldn't, of course, be included among every lab exposure-related outbreak you've encountered.
  - vtail 7y ago
    Yes - it's a good example of a survivorship bias.
  - Fomite 7y ago
    There are very, very few outbreaks where we don't eventually figure out the source. Like, can you spin the theory that we're missing them? Sure. But there's a pretty strong absence of evidence there, despite a field that's actively looking constantly (and where showing that would further the political and scientific careers of a number of people).
- ranger207 7y ago
  >If this was a bioweapon, it sucks. Bioweapons aren't all that effective in general for the reasons seen here: they're too slowly acting, to easy to treat, and not as lethal as, say, chemical weapons (which are also not that effective as weapons). Biological weapons are most dangerous as terror weapons.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
    I am not sure I agree completely. Yes, the panic they induce ( and that media happily augment ) is in itself dangerous, but.. well, weaponized ebola has apparently been in existence for a while. What makes you think progress was not made since then to.. add new traits to existing strains? I hate to say anything more, because we would easily move into wild speculation territory.
  - Fomite 7y ago
    Agreed. I worked on biodefense stuff for awhile, and my usual argument was that bioweapons are at best panic and disruption. But this was mostly to address the terminal version of this particular rumor, which I've also encountered on social media.
NathanKP 7y ago
Medium account was suspended...
- prostheticvamp 7y ago
  It’s up for me.
  - NathanKP 7y ago
    Must still be a cache somewhere for you. When I try to view it, it says "This account is under investigation or was found in violation of the Medium Rules."
    - tinodotim 7y ago
      Interesting, I visited it from IPs from all around the world through different desktop browsers and it's available everywhere BUT there is no author and no author bio. If that's (kind of) on purpose that's really weird, to suspend somebodies account but leave the article up and remove all the author references. Anybody from medium on hn :)?
      - LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
        At first it was like that for me too. After a reload, because trying to click on that Adrian Bond icon to see what else he posted, it's now gone completely like parent poster described. The funny thing about that is when you go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology the geocoordinates there lead you into the same forest on all major mapping services, while the pictures are recent or even from this year. Interesting edit history, 'patriots' proudly performing Psyberwar...
        allovernow 7y ago
        That's weird...it looks like an empty forest separating farmland.
neuralrust 7y ago
There is a 2017 article on Nature on that laboratory in Wuhan: https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487 https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to...
Aperocky 7y ago
s/biolab/World Trade Center/ s/biolab/Apollo/ ‘Number of suspicious elements’ Even the VOA has came out to classify this as a hoax. Sometimes people just want to believe in conspiracies.
- allovernow 7y ago
  Did you read the article before you dismissed this? The links are a little more substantial than 9/11 conspiracies. And the mechanism is far less far-fetched, considering that on at least one instance SARS was confirmed as having escaped a research lab much like the one in question. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death
  - Aperocky 7y ago
    There are 23 genome publicly available, And it’s closely identifies with existing coronavirus from bats and are further away from SARS. I am not a biologist, tell me should I trust the existing science or your story? It was said that the virus might not have originated from the market itself, people who actually raised or caught these wild animals might have gotten it first. But to make a jump from that to the biolab is exactly like how the US flag looked like wind blew on it and we never went to the moon. I’ll believe it when NIH or CDC publish corroborating evidence. Or are they part of the ‘system’ to you?
    - filoleg 7y ago
      I don't think that the author of the parent comment has some "i don't believe the system" sentiment, tinfoil hat style. For example, I definitely trust CDC (the US one). However, I am vary of trusting Chinese authorities and agencies when it comes to this issue, as they have shown before that they are willing to go to extreme lengths to hide the truth when revealing it casts a bad light or reveals some info. I have no strong opinion on the true source of the virus, as there isn't simply enough info and time to do a proper investigation by CDC, but it is easily imaginable how much the reputation of China will get damaged if it gets discovered that the virus was born out of one of their labs.
archagon 7y ago
Who is "Adrian Bond", I wonder? Can't find anything about the author.
superzamp 7y ago
Currently reading a (French) book regarding France-China industrial espionage and relations that was published well before the virus outbreak. Funnily enough, the author describes quite extensively how this P4 in Wuhan came into existence and all the subsequent problems faced by France to get China to honor the deal. I quote/translate: "In the course of these fifteen years, China has several times failed to live up to their engagement, staying relatively vague about the existence of an offensive biological program. Chinese officials had, for example, previously certified they had no other P4 and no plans to build any, but we now know they do have many, some being quite suspicious, a France official said". The book is "France-Chine, les liaisons dangereuses" by Antoine Izambard, for those curious.
- mc32 7y ago
  They have to be naive as VW if they believed the CCP would honor the contract...
  - superzamp 7y ago
    Yeah the whole thing is basically a shitshow. The majority of the French administration was against the deal as well as many other countries but the president at the time forced the deal to go through.
- threeseed 7y ago
  As I mentioned in another thread. I worked at a facilities department at university with an infectious disease research lab. We had incidents where there were system failures eg. Air filtration. It can just be a simple accident that the China government is covering up because they know their population would turn on them.
- hcheung 7y ago
  Would be an interesting read if there is an English version of the book available.
topmonk 7y ago
Heres another article: https://www.zerohedge.com/health/man-behind-global-coronavirus-pandemic https://www.zerohedge.com/health/man-behind-global-coronavir... What also leads me to believe this may be the case is that there was (according to the article) experiments on bats being run, and in China, people often find random animals, in drainage ditches, etc., and then go on to sell them for meat. It's possible that the bats they were working on were improperly disposed of, and then picked up and sold at the wet market.
- notadoc 7y ago
  Zerohedge? Their primary product is fear porn for clicks, how reliable of a source do you think that is?
  - WaitWaitWha 7y ago
    Forget the local content, but follow the links and make your decisions with those additional resources - discard them or not. Even a click-bate site can have links that help dis/prove a hypothesis.
    - ficklepickle 7y ago
      Here is an article from CBC[0], the source of the original article that sparked this theory. It claims to debunk the sensational claims, going as far as to call them fake and a conspiracy. No coronavirus was sent to Wuhan from that lab, it was a henipavirus and Ebola. It also wasn't sent by Dr. Qiu. That doesn't prove the coronavirus didn't escape from the Wuhan lab. But it does debunk this popular theory that it was Dr Qiu. Even if it did escape from the lab, it doesn't mean it's a bioweapon. Although the CCP are almost certainly working on them, possibly in their only known level 4 lab in Wuhan. I imagine there is a research overlap between bioweapons and treating people. They both require a deep understanding of how the viruses function. There is an interesting unanswered question: what is the RCMP investigating Dr. Qiu for? They are very vague. It could be nothing, or it could be related to her helping setup the lab in Wuhan. The RCMP is a vain, inept organization IMO. [0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/china-coronavirus-online-chatter-conspiracy-1.5442376 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/china-coronavirus-on...
ibeckermayer 7y ago
“Indian scientists have just found HIV (AIDS) virus-like insertions in the 2019-nCov virus that are not found in any other coronavirus. They hint at the possibility that this Chinese virus was designed ["not fortuitous'].” [1] “BOSTON (CBS) – Three people tied to universities and a hospital in the Boston area were indicted on charges they lied about their ties to China or tried to help the Chinese government. Among them was Dr. Charles Lieber, the chair of Harvard University’s Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology. Prosecutors said Lieber had a contract with Wuhan Institute of Technology. He also ran a group that had contracts with the Department of Defense and National Institutes of Health” [2] [1] https://twitter.com/ARanganathan72/status/1223320879162986496?s=20 https://twitter.com/ARanganathan72/status/122332087916298649... [2] https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/01/28/massachusetts-china-indictments-charles-lieber-yanqing-ye-zaosong-zheng/ https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/01/28/massachusetts-china-i...
- justinzollars 7y ago
  This paper is not yet peer reviewed. I'm sure this claim will be studied exhaustively in the coming days/weeks.
Aperocky 7y ago
There are 23 genome publicly available, And it’s closely identifies with existing coronavirus from bats and are further away from SARS. I am not a biologist, tell me should I trust the existing science or your story? It was said that the virus might not have originated from the market itself, people who actually raised or caught these wild animals might have gotten it first. But to make a jump from that to the biolab is exactly like how the US flag looked like wind blew on it and we never went to the moon. I’ll believe it when NIH or CDC publish corroborating evidence.
viscanti 7y ago
This appears to have been debunked already. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/29/coronavirus-china-lab-mortality-virology-wuhan-virus-not-bioweapon/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/29/coronavirus-china-lab-m...
testis321 7y ago
> 410 > This account is under investigation or was found in violation of the Medium Rules. Hmm...
mustachionut 7y ago
The allegation that the virus originated in a lab is appealing but unfounded. Everybody would rather believe that our problems come from circumstances humans understand and control rather than the cold randomness of the universe. Though the virus and death it has caused is terrible, at least the fight against it unites humanity in a limited way. The groundless assertion that it originated in a lab recasts coronavirus into a human vs human problem and amplifies our political differences.
- NicoJuicy 7y ago
  From a fake account? There is no reason for that. Is there? Although your content seems very fatalistic ( = we can't understand nature). It seems weird and suspicious
  - mustachionut 7y ago
    > From a fake account? No. From a new, anonymous account where I intend to post my opinions without them being tied to my identity. At least until I post enough for stylometric analysis to work...
    - throw876545 7y ago
      Unfortunately, saying rational things about China—instead of demonizing it—can be seen as defending the Chinese government and bring a lot of grief in this current “Yellow Peril” environment.
      - allovernow 7y ago
        China is literally ground zero for what will be a global pandemic if we do not contain it. I implore you not to bring nonsensical allegations of racism into this.
      - NicoJuicy 7y ago
        A new account is the same as a fake account. I didn't see any reason for not tieing it to a identity. I express my opinions also, only if it is really sensitive I would use a throw away. I think being pro/contra China is not that sensitive, except if you are in China and contra.

Fomite 7y ago

- Every laboratory exposure-related outbreak I've encountered has been trivially easy to trace back to that event. - Most high-end virology labs are doing research on human to human transmission of corona viruses. They're a major emerging type of virus we don't understand, and a Chinese lab working on them is even less surprising. - If this was a bioweapon, it sucks.

izzydata 7y ago
Originating from a lab doesn't necessarily mean it is a weapon. Only that they have poor sterilization or something.
- Fomite 7y ago
  Points one and two are originating in a lab as a general principle. Only point three is addressing the mutated version of this rumor, which is that it's a bioweapons lab.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  yeah close proxmity changes everything, mistakes are not impossible. ..
dk1138 7y ago
Trivially easy to trace, sure. But the Chinese government bay be highly motivated to prevent disclosing or allowing discovery of that.
baddox 7y ago
The ones that are too difficult to trace wouldn't, of course, be included among every lab exposure-related outbreak you've encountered.
- vtail 7y ago
  Yes - it's a good example of a survivorship bias.
- Fomite 7y ago
  There are very, very few outbreaks where we don't eventually figure out the source. Like, can you spin the theory that we're missing them? Sure. But there's a pretty strong absence of evidence there, despite a field that's actively looking constantly (and where showing that would further the political and scientific careers of a number of people).
ranger207 7y ago
>If this was a bioweapon, it sucks. Bioweapons aren't all that effective in general for the reasons seen here: they're too slowly acting, to easy to treat, and not as lethal as, say, chemical weapons (which are also not that effective as weapons). Biological weapons are most dangerous as terror weapons.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  I am not sure I agree completely. Yes, the panic they induce ( and that media happily augment ) is in itself dangerous, but.. well, weaponized ebola has apparently been in existence for a while. What makes you think progress was not made since then to.. add new traits to existing strains? I hate to say anything more, because we would easily move into wild speculation territory.
- Fomite 7y ago
  Agreed. I worked on biodefense stuff for awhile, and my usual argument was that bioweapons are at best panic and disruption. But this was mostly to address the terminal version of this particular rumor, which I've also encountered on social media.

NathanKP 7y ago

Medium account was suspended...

prostheticvamp 7y ago
It’s up for me.
- NathanKP 7y ago
  Must still be a cache somewhere for you. When I try to view it, it says "This account is under investigation or was found in violation of the Medium Rules."
  - tinodotim 7y ago
    Interesting, I visited it from IPs from all around the world through different desktop browsers and it's available everywhere BUT there is no author and no author bio. If that's (kind of) on purpose that's really weird, to suspend somebodies account but leave the article up and remove all the author references. Anybody from medium on hn :)?
    - LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
      At first it was like that for me too. After a reload, because trying to click on that Adrian Bond icon to see what else he posted, it's now gone completely like parent poster described. The funny thing about that is when you go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology the geocoordinates there lead you into the same forest on all major mapping services, while the pictures are recent or even from this year. Interesting edit history, 'patriots' proudly performing Psyberwar...
      - allovernow 7y ago
        That's weird...it looks like an empty forest separating farmland.

neuralrust 7y ago

There is a 2017 article on Nature on that laboratory in Wuhan: https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487 https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to...

Aperocky 7y ago

s/biolab/World Trade Center/ s/biolab/Apollo/ ‘Number of suspicious elements’ Even the VOA has came out to classify this as a hoax. Sometimes people just want to believe in conspiracies.

allovernow 7y ago
Did you read the article before you dismissed this? The links are a little more substantial than 9/11 conspiracies. And the mechanism is far less far-fetched, considering that on at least one instance SARS was confirmed as having escaped a research lab much like the one in question. https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death
- Aperocky 7y ago
  There are 23 genome publicly available, And it’s closely identifies with existing coronavirus from bats and are further away from SARS. I am not a biologist, tell me should I trust the existing science or your story? It was said that the virus might not have originated from the market itself, people who actually raised or caught these wild animals might have gotten it first. But to make a jump from that to the biolab is exactly like how the US flag looked like wind blew on it and we never went to the moon. I’ll believe it when NIH or CDC publish corroborating evidence. Or are they part of the ‘system’ to you?
  - filoleg 7y ago
    I don't think that the author of the parent comment has some "i don't believe the system" sentiment, tinfoil hat style. For example, I definitely trust CDC (the US one). However, I am vary of trusting Chinese authorities and agencies when it comes to this issue, as they have shown before that they are willing to go to extreme lengths to hide the truth when revealing it casts a bad light or reveals some info. I have no strong opinion on the true source of the virus, as there isn't simply enough info and time to do a proper investigation by CDC, but it is easily imaginable how much the reputation of China will get damaged if it gets discovered that the virus was born out of one of their labs.

archagon 7y ago

Who is "Adrian Bond", I wonder? Can't find anything about the author.

superzamp 7y ago

Currently reading a (French) book regarding France-China industrial espionage and relations that was published well before the virus outbreak. Funnily enough, the author describes quite extensively how this P4 in Wuhan came into existence and all the subsequent problems faced by France to get China to honor the deal. I quote/translate: "In the course of these fifteen years, China has several times failed to live up to their engagement, staying relatively vague about the existence of an offensive biological program. Chinese officials had, for example, previously certified they had no other P4 and no plans to build any, but we now know they do have many, some being quite suspicious, a France official said". The book is "France-Chine, les liaisons dangereuses" by Antoine Izambard, for those curious.

mc32 7y ago
They have to be naive as VW if they believed the CCP would honor the contract...
- superzamp 7y ago
  Yeah the whole thing is basically a shitshow. The majority of the French administration was against the deal as well as many other countries but the president at the time forced the deal to go through.
threeseed 7y ago
As I mentioned in another thread. I worked at a facilities department at university with an infectious disease research lab. We had incidents where there were system failures eg. Air filtration. It can just be a simple accident that the China government is covering up because they know their population would turn on them.
hcheung 7y ago
Would be an interesting read if there is an English version of the book available.

topmonk 7y ago

Heres another article: https://www.zerohedge.com/health/man-behind-global-coronavirus-pandemic https://www.zerohedge.com/health/man-behind-global-coronavir... What also leads me to believe this may be the case is that there was (according to the article) experiments on bats being run, and in China, people often find random animals, in drainage ditches, etc., and then go on to sell them for meat. It's possible that the bats they were working on were improperly disposed of, and then picked up and sold at the wet market.

notadoc 7y ago
Zerohedge? Their primary product is fear porn for clicks, how reliable of a source do you think that is?
- WaitWaitWha 7y ago
  Forget the local content, but follow the links and make your decisions with those additional resources - discard them or not. Even a click-bate site can have links that help dis/prove a hypothesis.
  - ficklepickle 7y ago
    Here is an article from CBC[0], the source of the original article that sparked this theory. It claims to debunk the sensational claims, going as far as to call them fake and a conspiracy. No coronavirus was sent to Wuhan from that lab, it was a henipavirus and Ebola. It also wasn't sent by Dr. Qiu. That doesn't prove the coronavirus didn't escape from the Wuhan lab. But it does debunk this popular theory that it was Dr Qiu. Even if it did escape from the lab, it doesn't mean it's a bioweapon. Although the CCP are almost certainly working on them, possibly in their only known level 4 lab in Wuhan. I imagine there is a research overlap between bioweapons and treating people. They both require a deep understanding of how the viruses function. There is an interesting unanswered question: what is the RCMP investigating Dr. Qiu for? They are very vague. It could be nothing, or it could be related to her helping setup the lab in Wuhan. The RCMP is a vain, inept organization IMO. [0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/china-coronavirus-online-chatter-conspiracy-1.5442376 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/china-coronavirus-on...

ibeckermayer 7y ago

“Indian scientists have just found HIV (AIDS) virus-like insertions in the 2019-nCov virus that are not found in any other coronavirus. They hint at the possibility that this Chinese virus was designed ["not fortuitous'].” [1] “BOSTON (CBS) – Three people tied to universities and a hospital in the Boston area were indicted on charges they lied about their ties to China or tried to help the Chinese government. Among them was Dr. Charles Lieber, the chair of Harvard University’s Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology. Prosecutors said Lieber had a contract with Wuhan Institute of Technology. He also ran a group that had contracts with the Department of Defense and National Institutes of Health” [2] [1] https://twitter.com/ARanganathan72/status/1223320879162986496?s=20 https://twitter.com/ARanganathan72/status/122332087916298649... [2] https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/01/28/massachusetts-china-indictments-charles-lieber-yanqing-ye-zaosong-zheng/ https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/01/28/massachusetts-china-i...

justinzollars 7y ago
This paper is not yet peer reviewed. I'm sure this claim will be studied exhaustively in the coming days/weeks.

Aperocky 7y ago

There are 23 genome publicly available, And it’s closely identifies with existing coronavirus from bats and are further away from SARS. I am not a biologist, tell me should I trust the existing science or your story? It was said that the virus might not have originated from the market itself, people who actually raised or caught these wild animals might have gotten it first. But to make a jump from that to the biolab is exactly like how the US flag looked like wind blew on it and we never went to the moon. I’ll believe it when NIH or CDC publish corroborating evidence.

viscanti 7y ago

This appears to have been debunked already. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/29/coronavirus-china-lab-mortality-virology-wuhan-virus-not-bioweapon/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/29/coronavirus-china-lab-m...

testis321 7y ago

> 410 > This account is under investigation or was found in violation of the Medium Rules. Hmm...

mustachionut 7y ago

The allegation that the virus originated in a lab is appealing but unfounded. Everybody would rather believe that our problems come from circumstances humans understand and control rather than the cold randomness of the universe. Though the virus and death it has caused is terrible, at least the fight against it unites humanity in a limited way. The groundless assertion that it originated in a lab recasts coronavirus into a human vs human problem and amplifies our political differences.

NicoJuicy 7y ago
From a fake account? There is no reason for that. Is there? Although your content seems very fatalistic ( = we can't understand nature). It seems weird and suspicious
- mustachionut 7y ago
  > From a fake account? No. From a new, anonymous account where I intend to post my opinions without them being tied to my identity. At least until I post enough for stylometric analysis to work...
  - throw876545 7y ago
    Unfortunately, saying rational things about China—instead of demonizing it—can be seen as defending the Chinese government and bring a lot of grief in this current “Yellow Peril” environment.
    - allovernow 7y ago
      China is literally ground zero for what will be a global pandemic if we do not contain it. I implore you not to bring nonsensical allegations of racism into this.
    - NicoJuicy 7y ago
      A new account is the same as a fake account. I didn't see any reason for not tieing it to a identity. I express my opinions also, only if it is really sensitive I would use a throw away. I think being pro/contra China is not that sensitive, except if you are in China and contra.