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We started with Mailgun when the free tier seemed established and permanent. No card required. Our CMS taps into their API. Then they required a unique phone nu

by prawn 7y ago

We started with Mailgun when the free tier seemed established and permanent. No card required. Our CMS taps into their API. Then they required a unique phone number for each account and even that was a time sink getting clients to comprehend what was going on. I think some people underestimate how cost-sensitive some clients are. And how time poor some small businesses are.

bigiain 7y ago
> I think some people underestimate how cost-sensitive some clients are. And how time poor some small businesses are. Those aren't "clients", they're "moochers". If they're prepared to walk away because it costs them $35/month to send to their mailing list, you probably owe it to yourself/your business to spend your time seeking new better clients rather than talking them thru how to get stuff/service for less than $35/month... Your business should be "cost sensitive" as well...
- redsymbol 7y ago
  Exactly. My business lifted off when I realized my market isn't the people who benefit from what I'm selling. My market is people who benefit from what I'm selling, and are willing to pay for value. Freeloaders are simply not in my market. And with that focus, I've been able to exponentially improve the value of what my company provides.
- prawn 7y ago
  They are clients if they found us to provide a service they needed, and we can provide it in a profitable way. Our business found Mailgun to be a great solution when we anticipated clients would stick under 10k/mo and not need a card on file. With Stripe, every time they pay their cut, they've had a sale. Every time they mail-out through MailChimp, it's to a list of customers. We are usually using Mailgun to send transactional emails. I can't promise a client that they won't get a flurry of junk signups or password reset mailouts that hit their credit card. The bottom 50% of the market is heading to self-serve site-builders and it's savage for a small web business.
  - vermontdevil 7y ago
    Mailgun does not owe you or anyone a free tier. Start charging your clients money to cover costs that comes with their business.
    - prawn 7y ago
      They literally offered a free tier! My original point was not even anything to do with cost but hassle!
      - bigiain 7y ago
        In most businesses "hassle" and "cost" are synonyms...
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
      I think the ask is that we wished Mailgun did that from the start instead of creating messes later in the process.
      - vermontdevil 7y ago
        Never assume free tiers will last forever. Recognize they are often a way to entice people into the system. And that often they change as the business grows. Thus don’t build your business that depends on free tiers.
        Scoundreller 7y ago
        Unless the vendor has more to lose than gain if they started charging. Discount stocks brokers make more money on float than trades. Search engines make enough off ads instead of charging per search. Photoshop didn’t have a free tier, but rampant piracy from home users created proficient corporate users.
      - prawn 7y ago
        I don't mind them having a free tier and tweaking their offering. But I think grandfathering in older accounts is nicer, and I wish it was easier to work with accounts in a technical role when you are not technically the client, but are acting for them in most ways. e.g., I can set up their account and other technical parts after that, but I can't verify their mobile number (added since we started working with Mailgun), don't have their credit card details to put on file (same), and often end up agreeing to legal notices for them rather than asking them to complete signup (and stalling the project).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- christoph 7y ago
  A lot of my clients fit this. What I’ve done to “solve” it for us, is to stop charging for hosting and “services” each month and realistically price it in to the initial contract. A lot of our projects are between £5k and £20k. I don’t want to be raising invoices for £20 or £30 per month. Their corporate finance department doesn't want to be processing small amounts each month either. All these projects have limited lifespan - 1 year or 2 or most. It makes sense for all involved to just price it in early. They like it, I like it. Sometimes projects run longer, sometimes they run short, on aggregate, it seems to work for us and them. Yes, if something goes nuts and costs thousands a month, that’s a conversation you want to have quickly, but in that scenario, the traffic they are getting is leading a different conversation anyway. YMMV.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
    You could align incentives this way by structuring the deal to include a three year "service and support" component. You can build that in to provide a fixed cost yet at the same time have the flexibility to charge more if your cost structure has changed after the time passes.
brudgers 7y ago
I don't underestimate how bad clients can be. I don't over-estimate how hard it is for some self-employed people to ask for more money. It's ok to be fired by people who aren't paying you. It's even better to fire clients who aren't.
- prawn 7y ago
  These clients ARE paying me. I like them. They just have an overloaded plate of issues and it’s no fun having to tax them further when a third-party setup changes. Initial point wasn’t even about cost but hassle.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
brudgers 7y ago
I don't underestimate how small businesses operate. The issue here is that the relationship has B2C connotations. To me, that's unhealthy. B2C relationships are about bargains and lowest price. B2B relationships are sustained by each party wanting the other party to stay in business. Your problem cascades from a B2C approaches to a B2B relationships. Not just yours to your client, but Mailgun's B2C approach to its relationship with your business. Free commercial email is likely to be unsustainable. At best, it's money left on the table because at 10k emails a month, there won't be many conversions. They were delivering free to a customer who expected free with the same damage to the customer's perception of the relationship as between you and your client. The only part under your total control was whether or not to charge your client money. If you had, then the bad part would be Mailgun raising its prices. You would have had the option of eating the cost. Or having the unpleasant conversation with your client. Maybe there's something slimy about charging a client for a free tier mail service. That's also under your control. Just pay for a paid tier and pass along cost at normal markup. In the long run, and that's what B2B relationships are about, it will tend to be simpler and simpler tends to be better for everyone.

by prawn 7y ago

bigiain 7y ago

> I think some people underestimate how cost-sensitive some clients are. And how time poor some small businesses are. Those aren't "clients", they're "moochers". If they're prepared to walk away because it costs them $35/month to send to their mailing list, you probably owe it to yourself/your business to spend your time seeking new better clients rather than talking them thru how to get stuff/service for less than $35/month... Your business should be "cost sensitive" as well...

redsymbol 7y ago
Exactly. My business lifted off when I realized my market isn't the people who benefit from what I'm selling. My market is people who benefit from what I'm selling, and are willing to pay for value. Freeloaders are simply not in my market. And with that focus, I've been able to exponentially improve the value of what my company provides.
prawn 7y ago
They are clients if they found us to provide a service they needed, and we can provide it in a profitable way. Our business found Mailgun to be a great solution when we anticipated clients would stick under 10k/mo and not need a card on file. With Stripe, every time they pay their cut, they've had a sale. Every time they mail-out through MailChimp, it's to a list of customers. We are usually using Mailgun to send transactional emails. I can't promise a client that they won't get a flurry of junk signups or password reset mailouts that hit their credit card. The bottom 50% of the market is heading to self-serve site-builders and it's savage for a small web business.
- vermontdevil 7y ago
  Mailgun does not owe you or anyone a free tier. Start charging your clients money to cover costs that comes with their business.
  - prawn 7y ago
    They literally offered a free tier! My original point was not even anything to do with cost but hassle!
    - bigiain 7y ago
      In most businesses "hassle" and "cost" are synonyms...
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    I think the ask is that we wished Mailgun did that from the start instead of creating messes later in the process.
    - vermontdevil 7y ago
      Never assume free tiers will last forever. Recognize they are often a way to entice people into the system. And that often they change as the business grows. Thus don’t build your business that depends on free tiers.
      - Scoundreller 7y ago
        Unless the vendor has more to lose than gain if they started charging. Discount stocks brokers make more money on float than trades. Search engines make enough off ads instead of charging per search. Photoshop didn’t have a free tier, but rampant piracy from home users created proficient corporate users.
    - prawn 7y ago
      I don't mind them having a free tier and tweaking their offering. But I think grandfathering in older accounts is nicer, and I wish it was easier to work with accounts in a technical role when you are not technically the client, but are acting for them in most ways. e.g., I can set up their account and other technical parts after that, but I can't verify their mobile number (added since we started working with Mailgun), don't have their credit card details to put on file (same), and often end up agreeing to legal notices for them rather than asking them to complete signup (and stalling the project).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
christoph 7y ago
A lot of my clients fit this. What I’ve done to “solve” it for us, is to stop charging for hosting and “services” each month and realistically price it in to the initial contract. A lot of our projects are between £5k and £20k. I don’t want to be raising invoices for £20 or £30 per month. Their corporate finance department doesn't want to be processing small amounts each month either. All these projects have limited lifespan - 1 year or 2 or most. It makes sense for all involved to just price it in early. They like it, I like it. Sometimes projects run longer, sometimes they run short, on aggregate, it seems to work for us and them. Yes, if something goes nuts and costs thousands a month, that’s a conversation you want to have quickly, but in that scenario, the traffic they are getting is leading a different conversation anyway. YMMV.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  You could align incentives this way by structuring the deal to include a three year "service and support" component. You can build that in to provide a fixed cost yet at the same time have the flexibility to charge more if your cost structure has changed after the time passes.

brudgers 7y ago

I don't underestimate how bad clients can be. I don't over-estimate how hard it is for some self-employed people to ask for more money. It's ok to be fired by people who aren't paying you. It's even better to fire clients who aren't.

prawn 7y ago
These clients ARE paying me. I like them. They just have an overloaded plate of issues and it’s no fun having to tax them further when a third-party setup changes. Initial point wasn’t even about cost but hassle.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

brudgers 7y ago

I don't underestimate how small businesses operate. The issue here is that the relationship has B2C connotations. To me, that's unhealthy. B2C relationships are about bargains and lowest price. B2B relationships are sustained by each party wanting the other party to stay in business. Your problem cascades from a B2C approaches to a B2B relationships. Not just yours to your client, but Mailgun's B2C approach to its relationship with your business. Free commercial email is likely to be unsustainable. At best, it's money left on the table because at 10k emails a month, there won't be many conversions. They were delivering free to a customer who expected free with the same damage to the customer's perception of the relationship as between you and your client. The only part under your total control was whether or not to charge your client money. If you had, then the bad part would be Mailgun raising its prices. You would have had the option of eating the cost. Or having the unpleasant conversation with your client. Maybe there's something slimy about charging a client for a free tier mail service. That's also under your control. Just pay for a paid tier and pass along cost at normal markup. In the long run, and that's what B2B relationships are about, it will tend to be simpler and simpler tends to be better for everyone.