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> Our dislike of feeling like a noob is our brain telling us "Come on, come on, figure this out." Maybe I'm projecting from my own social anxiety, but I believ

> Our dislike of feeling like a noob is our brain telling us "Come on, come on, figure this out." Maybe I'm projecting from my own social anxiety, but I believe most of the negative sensation of feeling like a noob is being seen to not know something. People want to come across as valuable to others and one way we do that is by offerring expertise. If we are seen to be noobs, it implies we may be less valuable to others because we don't know a thing. Unfortunately, being a noob is a necessary precondition to actually learning a thing. It's very hard to learn without putting yourself out there in some way and trying. So there is this tension between wanting to be comfortable with looking like an amateur so that you can immerse yourself in the kind of environments where rapid learning happens, while also wanting to come across as an expert at other times.

Davertron 7y ago
I learned to play hockey about 5 years ago. Part of that was going to stick and puck sessions during the week, where I could basically do whatever I wanted; work on skating, stick handling, etc. Sometimes there would be literally no one else at the rink, and during those times it was super fun being a noob. I had a ton of stuff I could work on, and I would see progress from week-to-week. I started playing on a real team not long after starting to learn, and the games were the opposite. I just felt super embarrassed the whole time.
- miketuritzin 7y ago
  I have thought about this phenomenon with regard to the internet a lot. Online it's easy to be exposed to videos and other content produced by people who are literally among the best in the world at anything. This means we start to measure ourselves against the most unforgiving yardstick imaginable, which makes being a noob (or even "normal") even more painful.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Normal is below noob! No matter what you do, for anything you put effort into, you are probably above average at it, when you include not just everyone who tries it but also everyone who hasn't even tried. You can be the worst person at your job and still do a job worth getting paid for.
MivLives 7y ago
The way I counter this mentally is by reminding myself that most people don't mind noobs, as long as they are actively learning and getting better. The only noobs people care about are the perpetual ones who need to be instructed on how to do things again and again.
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  I think it depends upon their relationship to the noob. In a situation where the noob has a clear negative impact on the person, you can see a very negative reaction to noobs. Take a game like Dota 2 where a noob can be a handicap that can sink a team and how toxic the culture that game has developed.
  - Talanes 7y ago
    It's the transient nature of that sort of game that makes for the extreme noob hate. The value of the noob is that they can learn and grow, and become an equal who does things exactly as you prefer, because you taught them. If you're not going to see that noob again, then the value proposition doesn't really pay off.
    - munificent 7y ago
      Right. Sort of the difference between the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma and regular Prisoner's Dilemma.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Sure. I don't want to fly with a noob pilot, but I like playing chess with noob players at my table or next one over.
jsonne 7y ago
I do have an anxiety disorder so I absolutely get this. A big breakthrough for me through therapy was working on my self worth and realizing that I have inherent value. I can't speak for everyone but I was raised to believe that my worth was really only the sum of my actions in a very utilitarian sort of way rather than a deontological way. I suspect a lot of other young men in my generation were instilled with very similar values. If you know that you existing just as you are is valuable regardless then the social anxiety around not knowing something or being "perfect" tends to melt away (or it at least helps). Perfectionism is a lot more insidious than most folks realize. That said when you get to the place where you can get past that it's quite liberating.
- burntoutfire 7y ago
  > I can't speak for everyone but I was raised to believe that my worth was really only the sum of my actions in a very utilitarian sort of way rather than a deontological way. I suspect a lot of other young men in my generation were instilled with very similar values. I feel for you, what a horrible philosophy to be raised under.
  - gonational 7y ago
    I think your username adequately describes the state of your generation (guessing you are about 30, based on your thinking); the smoldering remnants of a great fire that once was. The idea that, somehow, your actions do not define your value is so fundamentally broken that it isn’t found elsewhere in nature. There isn’t a single creature in nature that gets to be valuable in the eyes of the very objective and unrelenting judge that is evolution. We are fortunate that the younger generation, filled with potential, is almost here to replace the vast void.
    - burntoutfire 7y ago
      > he idea that, somehow, your actions do not define your value is so fundamentally broken ? I never said that.
  - pathseeker 7y ago
AmericanChopper 7y ago
> Maybe I'm projecting from my own social anxiety, but I believe most of the negative sensation of feeling like a noob is being seen to not know something. I can anecdotally agree with this. In general, I don’t care at all what people think about me (I still care if people think I’ve wronged them, it’s more what they judgementally think of me), and I have never felt bad about being a noob, or being seen as a noob. I’ve learnt two languages through immersion, and I’ve been told I pick them up very quickly. Learning languages like that is basically repeating things you’ve heard, and then figuring out what everything really means through asking questions and a huge amount of trial and error... with lots and lots of error. Really I’m not any better at learning things than anybody else is, but because I didn’t ever feel bad about making those errors, I’d wake up in the morning, and spend the whole day happily making “embarrassing” language mistakes. Which over time quickly became less and less common.
grawprog 7y ago
>People want to come across as valuable to others and one way we do that is by offerring expertise. I've found the trick to getting over this is realizing no matter how good you are at something, there's always someone better and when you find yourself as the noob, you get to ask all the questions and learn and everbody will be ok with this. You also get to make mistakes, and everybody will be ok with this. I've recently found myself going from being the expert to bottom of the barrel noob again and honestly it's refreshing, there's no pressure on you, somebody else makes the decisions, you just kinda do what you're told and absorb knowledge, and when something goes wrong you don't need to figure it out. It does make a nice change, though it can be frustrating, especially when it's a situation when you know what to do, but nobody listens because you're the noob. You just have to remember, at some point you won't be the noob again and someone else will be, might as well enjoy it while you can. It's also kind of an interesting situation, I started my new job just after a younger guy who's only had one or two other jobs before. There's a big difference between the way the two of us learn and work just because of our gap in life experience. It made me realize there's different levels between even noobs based on a bunch of different factors. In the end though, i've found it best when you're the noob to just learn whatever you can as fast as you can, bring whatever knowledge and experience you can, but do it unspokenly through actions rather than words and eventually, without realizing it, you're not the noob any more.
aswanson 7y ago
The trick I've learned is to never assume I'm an expert, and always question basics. It's suprisingly easy to do, and makes honest the most paramount. Also, this perspective has made me look at folks who are always trying to convince others how expert they are as silly and annoying.
mfkp 7y ago
As Jake the Dog once said, "Sucking at something is the first step towards being sorta good at something."
Polylactic_acid 7y ago
I don't so much care about being seen as a noob. If I don't know something I'm fine with asking. What I hate is when one of the junior devs asks me something and I don't have an answer for them. I don't know everything about our product so often the best I can do is show them how I would find out the answer.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  > I don't know everything about our product so often the best I can do is show them how I would find out the answer. I feel like this is often more helpful than simply giving an answer, and I sometimes feign ignorance on a topic as an excuse to show how I would go about searching for an answer without seeming like an asshole who's going on an unrelated tangent.
  - Polylactic_acid 7y ago
    It more becomes a problem when I don't even know the direct path to the answer and it becomes "Can you open this file, now open this file, can you console log this value, ok its none of that, check this file" At some point it becomes easier for me to just go back to my computer and find the answer and come back but then I'm doing their work for them.
SquishyPanda23 7y ago
I think this is perceptive. Along similar lines, it's not just that you can't offer expertise. It's also that you're participating in a community defined by knowledge of a particular topic. And relative to that community, you're an outsider since you don't have that knowledge. So all of your primate fears about approaching a community as an outsider kick in. There's also generally the uncomfortable feeling of confronting your ignorance when being informed, or skilled, or intelligent is a major part of your self image.

Davertron 7y ago

I learned to play hockey about 5 years ago. Part of that was going to stick and puck sessions during the week, where I could basically do whatever I wanted; work on skating, stick handling, etc. Sometimes there would be literally no one else at the rink, and during those times it was super fun being a noob. I had a ton of stuff I could work on, and I would see progress from week-to-week. I started playing on a real team not long after starting to learn, and the games were the opposite. I just felt super embarrassed the whole time.

miketuritzin 7y ago
I have thought about this phenomenon with regard to the internet a lot. Online it's easy to be exposed to videos and other content produced by people who are literally among the best in the world at anything. This means we start to measure ourselves against the most unforgiving yardstick imaginable, which makes being a noob (or even "normal") even more painful.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Normal is below noob! No matter what you do, for anything you put effort into, you are probably above average at it, when you include not just everyone who tries it but also everyone who hasn't even tried. You can be the worst person at your job and still do a job worth getting paid for.

MivLives 7y ago

The way I counter this mentally is by reminding myself that most people don't mind noobs, as long as they are actively learning and getting better. The only noobs people care about are the perpetual ones who need to be instructed on how to do things again and again.

SkyBelow 7y ago
I think it depends upon their relationship to the noob. In a situation where the noob has a clear negative impact on the person, you can see a very negative reaction to noobs. Take a game like Dota 2 where a noob can be a handicap that can sink a team and how toxic the culture that game has developed.
- Talanes 7y ago
  It's the transient nature of that sort of game that makes for the extreme noob hate. The value of the noob is that they can learn and grow, and become an equal who does things exactly as you prefer, because you taught them. If you're not going to see that noob again, then the value proposition doesn't really pay off.
  - munificent 7y ago
    Right. Sort of the difference between the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma and regular Prisoner's Dilemma.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Sure. I don't want to fly with a noob pilot, but I like playing chess with noob players at my table or next one over.

jsonne 7y ago

I do have an anxiety disorder so I absolutely get this. A big breakthrough for me through therapy was working on my self worth and realizing that I have inherent value. I can't speak for everyone but I was raised to believe that my worth was really only the sum of my actions in a very utilitarian sort of way rather than a deontological way. I suspect a lot of other young men in my generation were instilled with very similar values. If you know that you existing just as you are is valuable regardless then the social anxiety around not knowing something or being "perfect" tends to melt away (or it at least helps). Perfectionism is a lot more insidious than most folks realize. That said when you get to the place where you can get past that it's quite liberating.

burntoutfire 7y ago
> I can't speak for everyone but I was raised to believe that my worth was really only the sum of my actions in a very utilitarian sort of way rather than a deontological way. I suspect a lot of other young men in my generation were instilled with very similar values. I feel for you, what a horrible philosophy to be raised under.
- gonational 7y ago
  I think your username adequately describes the state of your generation (guessing you are about 30, based on your thinking); the smoldering remnants of a great fire that once was. The idea that, somehow, your actions do not define your value is so fundamentally broken that it isn’t found elsewhere in nature. There isn’t a single creature in nature that gets to be valuable in the eyes of the very objective and unrelenting judge that is evolution. We are fortunate that the younger generation, filled with potential, is almost here to replace the vast void.
  - burntoutfire 7y ago
    > he idea that, somehow, your actions do not define your value is so fundamentally broken ? I never said that.
- pathseeker 7y ago

AmericanChopper 7y ago

> Maybe I'm projecting from my own social anxiety, but I believe most of the negative sensation of feeling like a noob is being seen to not know something. I can anecdotally agree with this. In general, I don’t care at all what people think about me (I still care if people think I’ve wronged them, it’s more what they judgementally think of me), and I have never felt bad about being a noob, or being seen as a noob. I’ve learnt two languages through immersion, and I’ve been told I pick them up very quickly. Learning languages like that is basically repeating things you’ve heard, and then figuring out what everything really means through asking questions and a huge amount of trial and error... with lots and lots of error. Really I’m not any better at learning things than anybody else is, but because I didn’t ever feel bad about making those errors, I’d wake up in the morning, and spend the whole day happily making “embarrassing” language mistakes. Which over time quickly became less and less common.

grawprog 7y ago

>People want to come across as valuable to others and one way we do that is by offerring expertise. I've found the trick to getting over this is realizing no matter how good you are at something, there's always someone better and when you find yourself as the noob, you get to ask all the questions and learn and everbody will be ok with this. You also get to make mistakes, and everybody will be ok with this. I've recently found myself going from being the expert to bottom of the barrel noob again and honestly it's refreshing, there's no pressure on you, somebody else makes the decisions, you just kinda do what you're told and absorb knowledge, and when something goes wrong you don't need to figure it out. It does make a nice change, though it can be frustrating, especially when it's a situation when you know what to do, but nobody listens because you're the noob. You just have to remember, at some point you won't be the noob again and someone else will be, might as well enjoy it while you can. It's also kind of an interesting situation, I started my new job just after a younger guy who's only had one or two other jobs before. There's a big difference between the way the two of us learn and work just because of our gap in life experience. It made me realize there's different levels between even noobs based on a bunch of different factors. In the end though, i've found it best when you're the noob to just learn whatever you can as fast as you can, bring whatever knowledge and experience you can, but do it unspokenly through actions rather than words and eventually, without realizing it, you're not the noob any more.

aswanson 7y ago

The trick I've learned is to never assume I'm an expert, and always question basics. It's suprisingly easy to do, and makes honest the most paramount. Also, this perspective has made me look at folks who are always trying to convince others how expert they are as silly and annoying.

mfkp 7y ago

As Jake the Dog once said, "Sucking at something is the first step towards being sorta good at something."

Polylactic_acid 7y ago

I don't so much care about being seen as a noob. If I don't know something I'm fine with asking. What I hate is when one of the junior devs asks me something and I don't have an answer for them. I don't know everything about our product so often the best I can do is show them how I would find out the answer.

blotter_paper 7y ago
> I don't know everything about our product so often the best I can do is show them how I would find out the answer. I feel like this is often more helpful than simply giving an answer, and I sometimes feign ignorance on a topic as an excuse to show how I would go about searching for an answer without seeming like an asshole who's going on an unrelated tangent.
- Polylactic_acid 7y ago
  It more becomes a problem when I don't even know the direct path to the answer and it becomes "Can you open this file, now open this file, can you console log this value, ok its none of that, check this file" At some point it becomes easier for me to just go back to my computer and find the answer and come back but then I'm doing their work for them.

SquishyPanda23 7y ago

I think this is perceptive. Along similar lines, it's not just that you can't offer expertise. It's also that you're participating in a community defined by knowledge of a particular topic. And relative to that community, you're an outsider since you don't have that knowledge. So all of your primate fears about approaching a community as an outsider kick in. There's also generally the uncomfortable feeling of confronting your ignorance when being informed, or skilled, or intelligent is a major part of your self image.