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Inmates have nothing but time on their hands. We should give the mathematically inclined unsolved problems to turn over, and simple Raspberry Pis (even disconne

Inmates have nothing but time on their hands. We should give the mathematically inclined unsolved problems to turn over, and simple Raspberry Pis (even disconnected from the internet) for the means to code new software. If you have nothing but a wall to stare at for 12 hours a day, you may create something useful. If I had the power I would free every non-violent prisoner. Any person in jail for putting a substance into their own body, or for selling such a substance, does not deserve to be there. Such a waste of society's resources and talent.

Polylactic_acid 7y ago
What about people who have ignored safety laws and put people in risk or who have committed fraud? For drug usage it would probably make sense to use some kind of alternative prison which is focused on getting people off drugs and not punishment.
- MiroF 7y ago
  Make them pay restitution, bar them from the career they committed fraud in. I don't know - it seems like we jump to prison way too early for so many offenses, why not try more reparative approaches first.
- rhizome 7y ago
  Just want to note that "risk" is a highly malleable term, and "risk of risk" is not unheard of either.
- DanBC 7y ago
  One of the people killed in the recent London Bridge stabbing was Jack Merritt. He was involved in a programme to train prisoners in law. This was called "Learning Together" because it put prisoners alongside law students. Some of those prisoners were dangerous men who'd caused real harm to people. It was transformative, and really helped people turn their lives around. There's a radio interview here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00035vj https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00035vj
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Criminalizing the risk of a bad outcome is a slippery slope toward losing a heck of a lot of freedom. Damn near everything is risky on some level. This is why we generally asses civil penalties and fines when people do dangerous things but don't actually hurt anyone. Letting the citizenry speak their minds, bear arms, and be safe from unwarranted searches all comes with some level of "risk" to everyone.
AWildC182 7y ago
I wouldn't make my worst enemy try to program without the internet...
- Jtsummers 7y ago
  Programming without the internet isn’t hard. It’s like driving without a GPS. You have to commit more to memory, or, you know, use offline resources.
  - odyssey7 7y ago
    Ah, working through K&R was such a pleasant time, back in undergrad.
    - TurkishPoptart 7y ago
      Which book?
      - Jtsummers 7y ago
        They’re referring to K&R’s The C Programming Language [0]. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language
  - bifrost 7y ago
    I got started with python via a book on a plane, no computer, no internet (a looong time ago)...
    - justinclift 7y ago
      Did similar once... but hadn't run through the first setup piece where it ran through installing all the dependencies for the approach in the book. Which (obviously) couldn't work, as there was no way to download those dependencies mid-flight. Made some progress with the book during the flight, but it was mostly theoretical rather than being able to do the things. ;)
burtonator 7y ago
I argued this with my dad saying that people deserve our compassion and someone could discover a cure for cancer. He said he'd rather die from cancer than help someone who committed a felony.
- tehlike 7y ago
  Unfortunately a very american view. Hope new generations can right our wrongs.
  - bifrost 7y ago
    I've heard this from the EU, China, Australia, India, Canada and Japan... It seems to be popular in "law and order" societies.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - tehlike 7y ago
      I am not sure if i call all of the countries in this list "law and order". It kind of just sucks that people and their offspring has to suffer through a bad decision this bad. I wish we had better use of the downtime they have in prison, to societies benefit, onstead of the private corp that is the prison operator.
      - throwaway17_17 7y ago
        You are making an unfounded assumption that prisoners on the whole desire to benefit society. I certainly know convicted felons and former inmates who truly do fit that mold, but I also know vastly more who could not be bothered to give a single seconds thought for society or what benefits it.
        bifrost 7y ago
        I too have personal examples on both sides. I have an acquaintance who was convicted of fraud, sentenced to 5 years, got out early due to performing community service in jail. Haven't heard much from him after he got out though. I have another friend who was convicted of manslaughter, he's been a very productive member of society since he was released and I feel that he's very trustworthy. I've known him for 15 years and maybe he's had some parking tickets... A former peer was convicted of sex crimes in the early 2000s, he's reoffended in multiple countries. A friend of a friend was convicted of eco terrorism, they've been on the run but keeping in contact somehow, they've apparently destroyed millions of dollars in properties and have yet to be caught again. If you look at the police blotter in my city, its pretty much all repeat offenders.
est31 7y ago
I'm with you about the first paragraph. People, even violent criminals like the guy portrayed here, deserve a second chance. And in general, sentences in the US are very harsh in my opinion. But I disagree with your extreme statement in the second paragraph. > I would free every non-violent prisoner. Any person in jail for putting a substance into their own body, or for selling such a substance, does not deserve to be there. Such a waste of society's resources and talent. Drugs are a waste of society's resources and talent. So many bright young people turned into junkies. Also, giving hard drugs to someone is a form of violence. The britons did that to weaken China in their attept to colonize it. Pimps often get their women on drugs to make them not leave. etc etc.
- MrsPeaches 7y ago
  The extreme thing to do is to put people in prison for consuming/selling drugs. Consuming drugs may be a vice but so is gambling. You don’t put gamblers in prison just because they gamble. It is also possible to have a healthy relationship with drugs (or gambling). Most people can and do have a healthy relationship with drugs already e.g. alcohol. Again, throwing people in prison because of your judgement of their choices is an extreme thing to do. Imagine if we threw people in prison because they were eating to much sugar and becoming obese! Giving people choices about what they want to consume is not violence. Forcing or coercing them to do so, is. This is what Britain did in China and what pimps do to prostitutes.
  - throwaway17_17 7y ago
    There is a difference between gambling (which is illegal in many forms and in many places, so is punishable in similar manners to drug consumption) and drug use. That difference is legality. The prevailing theory is that people who deviate from what society deems (as a whole through a representative legislature) acceptable behaviors are to be punished, and since incarceration is the prevailing punishment it is imposed. Not saying I agree with the position, but there is a clear difference between legal and illegal actions at a societal level. As for what you termed selling drugs, a person who sells clearly illegal, potentially toxic, and often addictive chemical agents outside of the lawfully prescribed means of doing so are in a very separate category than the consumers of those drugs. Individuals selling heroin, fentanyl, or crack are clearly acting outside the law and in many cases doing so without regard (and sometimes explicitly benefitting from) the massively harmful effects of these drugs and the addictive attributes they possess.
amelius 7y ago
> We should give the mathematically inclined unsolved problems to turn over, and simple Raspberry Pis (even disconnected from the internet) for the means to code new software. This reminds me of the ReiserFS story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser
- SeekingMeaning 7y ago
  How so? He developed ReiserFS before he was convicted, so I’m not sure what the connection is.
akira2501 7y ago
> If you have nothing but a wall to stare at for 12 hours a day, you may create something useful. No one in prison has 12 hours to just stare at a wall, being in prison is an involved affair. It's also presumptuous that prisoners are at all in a position to manage their time or availability. Further, even if they did have the time to just stare at a wall.. what quality of work would you honestly expect? No collaboration, no hope, no incentives. Sounds like misery to me. > Such a waste of society's resources and talent. Those resources don't _belong_ to society. They belong to the individual.
- seibelj 7y ago
  The tax dollars I pay to house, clothe, feed, and provide medical care for people who have no reason to be imprisoned are the resources that belong to society that are being wasted. The waste of talent limits his or her contributions to the world.
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >Those resources don't _belong_ to society. They belong to the individual. >Currently it costs an average of $52.61 per day ($19,202.65 per year) to keep an adult inmate incarcerated in the State of Indiana . https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005238288-How-much-does-it-cost-to-keep-an-offender-in-prison- https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005238288-How-much-... >SUMMARY: The fee to cover the average cost of incarceration for Federal inmates in Fiscal Year 2015 was $31,977.65 ($87.61 per day). (Please note: There were 365 days in FY 2015.) The average annual cost to confine an inmate in a Residential Re-entry Center for Fiscal Year 2015 was $26,082.90 ($71.46 per day) https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/07/19/2016-17040/annual-determination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/07/19/2016-17... Households in Indiana have a median annual income of $55,746, the national median annual income is $61,937. Federal minimum wage is 7.25 an hour, or $15,080 annually. That doesn't even cover 1 inmate. Where do you think the money comes to fund those prisons? Taxation of everyone which is definitely society and not an individual.

Polylactic_acid 7y ago

What about people who have ignored safety laws and put people in risk or who have committed fraud? For drug usage it would probably make sense to use some kind of alternative prison which is focused on getting people off drugs and not punishment.

MiroF 7y ago
Make them pay restitution, bar them from the career they committed fraud in. I don't know - it seems like we jump to prison way too early for so many offenses, why not try more reparative approaches first.
rhizome 7y ago
Just want to note that "risk" is a highly malleable term, and "risk of risk" is not unheard of either.
DanBC 7y ago
One of the people killed in the recent London Bridge stabbing was Jack Merritt. He was involved in a programme to train prisoners in law. This was called "Learning Together" because it put prisoners alongside law students. Some of those prisoners were dangerous men who'd caused real harm to people. It was transformative, and really helped people turn their lives around. There's a radio interview here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00035vj https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00035vj
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Criminalizing the risk of a bad outcome is a slippery slope toward losing a heck of a lot of freedom. Damn near everything is risky on some level. This is why we generally asses civil penalties and fines when people do dangerous things but don't actually hurt anyone. Letting the citizenry speak their minds, bear arms, and be safe from unwarranted searches all comes with some level of "risk" to everyone.

AWildC182 7y ago

I wouldn't make my worst enemy try to program without the internet...

Jtsummers 7y ago
Programming without the internet isn’t hard. It’s like driving without a GPS. You have to commit more to memory, or, you know, use offline resources.
- odyssey7 7y ago
  Ah, working through K&R was such a pleasant time, back in undergrad.
  - TurkishPoptart 7y ago
    Which book?
    - Jtsummers 7y ago
      They’re referring to K&R’s The C Programming Language [0]. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language
- bifrost 7y ago
  I got started with python via a book on a plane, no computer, no internet (a looong time ago)...
  - justinclift 7y ago
    Did similar once... but hadn't run through the first setup piece where it ran through installing all the dependencies for the approach in the book. Which (obviously) couldn't work, as there was no way to download those dependencies mid-flight. Made some progress with the book during the flight, but it was mostly theoretical rather than being able to do the things. ;)

burtonator 7y ago

I argued this with my dad saying that people deserve our compassion and someone could discover a cure for cancer. He said he'd rather die from cancer than help someone who committed a felony.

tehlike 7y ago
Unfortunately a very american view. Hope new generations can right our wrongs.
- bifrost 7y ago
  I've heard this from the EU, China, Australia, India, Canada and Japan... It seems to be popular in "law and order" societies.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - tehlike 7y ago
    I am not sure if i call all of the countries in this list "law and order". It kind of just sucks that people and their offspring has to suffer through a bad decision this bad. I wish we had better use of the downtime they have in prison, to societies benefit, onstead of the private corp that is the prison operator.
    - throwaway17_17 7y ago
      You are making an unfounded assumption that prisoners on the whole desire to benefit society. I certainly know convicted felons and former inmates who truly do fit that mold, but I also know vastly more who could not be bothered to give a single seconds thought for society or what benefits it.
      - bifrost 7y ago
        I too have personal examples on both sides. I have an acquaintance who was convicted of fraud, sentenced to 5 years, got out early due to performing community service in jail. Haven't heard much from him after he got out though. I have another friend who was convicted of manslaughter, he's been a very productive member of society since he was released and I feel that he's very trustworthy. I've known him for 15 years and maybe he's had some parking tickets... A former peer was convicted of sex crimes in the early 2000s, he's reoffended in multiple countries. A friend of a friend was convicted of eco terrorism, they've been on the run but keeping in contact somehow, they've apparently destroyed millions of dollars in properties and have yet to be caught again. If you look at the police blotter in my city, its pretty much all repeat offenders.

est31 7y ago

I'm with you about the first paragraph. People, even violent criminals like the guy portrayed here, deserve a second chance. And in general, sentences in the US are very harsh in my opinion. But I disagree with your extreme statement in the second paragraph. > I would free every non-violent prisoner. Any person in jail for putting a substance into their own body, or for selling such a substance, does not deserve to be there. Such a waste of society's resources and talent. Drugs are a waste of society's resources and talent. So many bright young people turned into junkies. Also, giving hard drugs to someone is a form of violence. The britons did that to weaken China in their attept to colonize it. Pimps often get their women on drugs to make them not leave. etc etc.

MrsPeaches 7y ago
The extreme thing to do is to put people in prison for consuming/selling drugs. Consuming drugs may be a vice but so is gambling. You don’t put gamblers in prison just because they gamble. It is also possible to have a healthy relationship with drugs (or gambling). Most people can and do have a healthy relationship with drugs already e.g. alcohol. Again, throwing people in prison because of your judgement of their choices is an extreme thing to do. Imagine if we threw people in prison because they were eating to much sugar and becoming obese! Giving people choices about what they want to consume is not violence. Forcing or coercing them to do so, is. This is what Britain did in China and what pimps do to prostitutes.
- throwaway17_17 7y ago
  There is a difference between gambling (which is illegal in many forms and in many places, so is punishable in similar manners to drug consumption) and drug use. That difference is legality. The prevailing theory is that people who deviate from what society deems (as a whole through a representative legislature) acceptable behaviors are to be punished, and since incarceration is the prevailing punishment it is imposed. Not saying I agree with the position, but there is a clear difference between legal and illegal actions at a societal level. As for what you termed selling drugs, a person who sells clearly illegal, potentially toxic, and often addictive chemical agents outside of the lawfully prescribed means of doing so are in a very separate category than the consumers of those drugs. Individuals selling heroin, fentanyl, or crack are clearly acting outside the law and in many cases doing so without regard (and sometimes explicitly benefitting from) the massively harmful effects of these drugs and the addictive attributes they possess.

amelius 7y ago

> We should give the mathematically inclined unsolved problems to turn over, and simple Raspberry Pis (even disconnected from the internet) for the means to code new software. This reminds me of the ReiserFS story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser

SeekingMeaning 7y ago
How so? He developed ReiserFS before he was convicted, so I’m not sure what the connection is.

akira2501 7y ago

> If you have nothing but a wall to stare at for 12 hours a day, you may create something useful. No one in prison has 12 hours to just stare at a wall, being in prison is an involved affair. It's also presumptuous that prisoners are at all in a position to manage their time or availability. Further, even if they did have the time to just stare at a wall.. what quality of work would you honestly expect? No collaboration, no hope, no incentives. Sounds like misery to me. > Such a waste of society's resources and talent. Those resources don't _belong_ to society. They belong to the individual.

seibelj 7y ago
The tax dollars I pay to house, clothe, feed, and provide medical care for people who have no reason to be imprisoned are the resources that belong to society that are being wasted. The waste of talent limits his or her contributions to the world.
ryanmercer 7y ago
>Those resources don't _belong_ to society. They belong to the individual. >Currently it costs an average of $52.61 per day ($19,202.65 per year) to keep an adult inmate incarcerated in the State of Indiana . https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005238288-How-much-does-it-cost-to-keep-an-offender-in-prison- https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005238288-How-much-... >SUMMARY: The fee to cover the average cost of incarceration for Federal inmates in Fiscal Year 2015 was $31,977.65 ($87.61 per day). (Please note: There were 365 days in FY 2015.) The average annual cost to confine an inmate in a Residential Re-entry Center for Fiscal Year 2015 was $26,082.90 ($71.46 per day) https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/07/19/2016-17040/annual-determination-of-average-cost-of-incarceration https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/07/19/2016-17... Households in Indiana have a median annual income of $55,746, the national median annual income is $61,937. Federal minimum wage is 7.25 an hour, or $15,080 annually. That doesn't even cover 1 inmate. Where do you think the money comes to fund those prisons? Taxation of everyone which is definitely society and not an individual.