6 ms·

What would Feynman do?

203 points by cruise02 16y ago

rflrob 16y ago
When the original "If Feynman Applied for a job at Microsoft" was posted (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1866305 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1866305), a lot of people commented that this doesn't actually sound like something Feynman would say. Sheldon Cooper, maybe, but Feynman would have loved the simple, elegant solution that relied on no extra tools.
- cruise02 16y ago
  Although I found the article amusing, I have to agree with you. Surely Feynman would have seen the "correct" answer as quickly as any of us mere mortals.
  - kd0amg 16y ago
    That doesn't mean he'd give that solution right away. This sort of run-around seems to fit his sense of humor.
- jerf 16y ago
  I felt like the middle of the post wandered around, but the final tirade felt suitably Feynmanish to satisfy me. It reminded me of some comments made about processes in his Challenger analysis. For instance, the bit about claiming a 3x safety margin on ring erosion while not establishing how it actually works to know whether that was a reasonable assumption. Also, part of the assumption of these dialogs is not that Feynman is actually proposing these solutions, but that he is using them to Socratically establish to the listeners the flaws in their layout of the problem. http://www.ralentz.com/old/space/feynman-report.html http://www.ralentz.com/old/space/feynman-report.html
- georgecmu 16y ago
  Reading this reminded me of an old story of an exam question about measuring height of a building with a barometer: http://iws.collin.edu/jtsizemore/4fun/StudentAndBarometer.htm http://iws.collin.edu/jtsizemore/4fun/StudentAndBarometer.ht...
tomsaffell 16y ago
..And why is the solution you were clearly driving me towards one which takes advantage of an undocumented and unreliable epiphenomenon.. Since when has the thermal performance of a light bulb been undocumented and unreliable? I would think that designers of light fixtures and shades rely heavily on the documented thermal performance of light bulbs, and rate their products for compatibility with a range of bulbs accordingly.
- ahi 16y ago
  Furthermore, he's applying for a position at Microsoft.
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    ... who mandate darkness as an industry standard. Why are they even asking about light bulbs?
    - pavel_lishin 16y ago
      "Microsoft technical support, how may I help you?" "Yeah, one of our light bulbs just went out." "Have you tried selling your house, and moving into a new one?"
      - cruise02 16y ago
        Before turning it off and back on again? What tech support manual are you reading from? ;)
        raintrees 16y ago
        Can't read - The light's out.
- ojilles 16y ago
  "Since when has the thermal performance of a light bulb been undocumented and unreliable?" By making assumptions as to what type of a light bulb it is (which in this setting one could not know beforehand). F.ex. LEDs give off very little heat.
teamonkey 16y ago
Without wanting to drag the discussion down, it seems remiss not to link to this image that's been going around forever. http://www.flickr.com/photos/maitri/1444965179/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/maitri/1444965179/
gwern 16y ago
The Feynman I know from the _Feynman Lectures on Computation_ would have quickly disposed of the information-theoretic problem posed, and then have gone on to discuss all the interesting variants.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
hristov 16y ago
Whoever this guy is should try to make a point without putting words in Feynman's mouth. It is downright disrespectful. I know that everyone knows that Feynman did not say these things, but it is still disrespectful. Also it shows an enormous ego. Mr. Lippert thinks he is as smart as Feynman but he is not; he just makes Feynman sound like a pedantic asshole. Mind you I agree with his point that those questions are silly, but again he can make this point without bringing in Feynman's corpse and using it as a sockpupet.
- tjmaxal 16y ago
  Would it have made you feel better if he had invoked Einstein's name? It's satire, relax a little.
  - CamperBob 16y ago
    People did that to Einstein all the time, claiming that he followed one religion or God or another, and it actually did piss him off.
- tygorius 16y ago
  Agreed. This was a cartoonish version of Feynman I found rather pathetic. It is missing the recurring themes of learning and experimentation found in real Feynman stories. Either the old barometer story or the manhole cover story are far superior to this blog post.
- ericlippert 16y ago
  For the record: I intended no disrespect; I have immense respect and admiration for Feynman. And for the record: I do not think that I am as smart as Feynman; that would be ridiculous. The piece was intended as satire, and is in a long tradition of such dialogues intended to ridicule a "straw man" of a particular position. Consider, for example, Gallileo's Dialogue Concerning Two World Systems, in which the scientist, Salviati, criticizes the position of Simplicio, who believes the earth to be the center of the universe. I couldn't think of a better modern figure to stand for science, reason, clear thinking, and a mischievious sense of fun than Richard Feynman as my Salviati, and I hope that he would appreciate the spirit in which it was presented.
Confusion 16y ago
I find this story unlikely, but probably for a pretty uncommon reason. Here's the thing: I heard this question a number of times before (never in an interview; always on the interwebs), but never attempted to solve it and never read a solution. As I was reading this paragraph: Can I assume that the lights and the switches are correctly wired according to the National Electric Code of the United States? That is, that the switches interrupt the hots, not the neutrals, that the switches are standard-duty switches rated to interrupt 15 amps of 120 volt alternating current, and so on? I instantly realized the intended answer. I don't doubt for a second that if that just happened to me, it would also have happened to Feynman (because I blame being a physicist for what just happened), immediately after first thinking of that important signalling word that he was supposedly about to speak.
- ericlippert 16y ago
  Of course Feynman knows the intended answer. He's way ahead of the interviewer, and is having some fun with him by deliberately avoiding the "correct" answer.
  - Confusion 16y ago
    Reiterating how brilliant Feynman was completely misses my point, which depends on the assumption that Feynman would start out as he did.
anupj 16y ago
I don't think Dr. Feynman talks in such a cryptic language, if you've read his books you would know that he actually talks/writes in a very lucid language. But the person mentioned in the interview does sound like a certain "Sheldon" from the "The Big Bang Theory".
juiceandjuice 16y ago
Feynman would have a better approximation for the resistance of a human. 1K is just way too low.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
shubber 16y ago
"Does your team usually write code whose correctness relies upon undocumented and unreliable correlations, correlations whose magnitudes can vary widely as a result of implementation details?" I loved this implication on a Microsoft website.
loup-vaillant 16y ago
Brain teasers and real life just don't work the same way. The trick is to distinguish them. If a bridge can only support 2 people, maybe it is better to not cross it at all. If you do have to cross it, maybe you can trust your tamed tiger with the goat. Pirates aren't rational agents that use silly rules for sharing the treasure. An egg that doesn't take a scratch when falling from the 13'th floor belongs to wonderland. Few women would kill their cheating husband right away. Fewer still would rely on the perfect rationality of others, and the mayor's to do so. And so on. Brain teasers are fun, but many people (not just Richard Feynman) don't accept their weird assumptions right away, and instead assume a real-life setting.

203 points by cruise02 16y ago

When the original "If Feynman Applied for a job at Microsoft" was posted (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1866305 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1866305), a lot of people commented that this doesn't actually sound like something Feynman would say. Sheldon Cooper, maybe, but Feynman would have loved the simple, elegant solution that relied on no extra tools.

cruise02 16y ago
Although I found the article amusing, I have to agree with you. Surely Feynman would have seen the "correct" answer as quickly as any of us mere mortals.
- kd0amg 16y ago
  That doesn't mean he'd give that solution right away. This sort of run-around seems to fit his sense of humor.
jerf 16y ago
I felt like the middle of the post wandered around, but the final tirade felt suitably Feynmanish to satisfy me. It reminded me of some comments made about processes in his Challenger analysis. For instance, the bit about claiming a 3x safety margin on ring erosion while not establishing how it actually works to know whether that was a reasonable assumption. Also, part of the assumption of these dialogs is not that Feynman is actually proposing these solutions, but that he is using them to Socratically establish to the listeners the flaws in their layout of the problem. http://www.ralentz.com/old/space/feynman-report.html http://www.ralentz.com/old/space/feynman-report.html
georgecmu 16y ago
Reading this reminded me of an old story of an exam question about measuring height of a building with a barometer: http://iws.collin.edu/jtsizemore/4fun/StudentAndBarometer.htm http://iws.collin.edu/jtsizemore/4fun/StudentAndBarometer.ht...

tomsaffell 16y ago

..And why is the solution you were clearly driving me towards one which takes advantage of an undocumented and unreliable epiphenomenon.. Since when has the thermal performance of a light bulb been undocumented and unreliable? I would think that designers of light fixtures and shades rely heavily on the documented thermal performance of light bulbs, and rate their products for compatibility with a range of bulbs accordingly.

ahi 16y ago
Furthermore, he's applying for a position at Microsoft.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  ... who mandate darkness as an industry standard. Why are they even asking about light bulbs?
  - pavel_lishin 16y ago
    "Microsoft technical support, how may I help you?" "Yeah, one of our light bulbs just went out." "Have you tried selling your house, and moving into a new one?"
    - cruise02 16y ago
      Before turning it off and back on again? What tech support manual are you reading from? ;)
      - raintrees 16y ago
        Can't read - The light's out.
ojilles 16y ago
"Since when has the thermal performance of a light bulb been undocumented and unreliable?" By making assumptions as to what type of a light bulb it is (which in this setting one could not know beforehand). F.ex. LEDs give off very little heat.

teamonkey 16y ago

Without wanting to drag the discussion down, it seems remiss not to link to this image that's been going around forever. http://www.flickr.com/photos/maitri/1444965179/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/maitri/1444965179/

gwern 16y ago

The Feynman I know from the _Feynman Lectures on Computation_ would have quickly disposed of the information-theoretic problem posed, and then have gone on to discuss all the interesting variants.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

hristov 16y ago

Whoever this guy is should try to make a point without putting words in Feynman's mouth. It is downright disrespectful. I know that everyone knows that Feynman did not say these things, but it is still disrespectful. Also it shows an enormous ego. Mr. Lippert thinks he is as smart as Feynman but he is not; he just makes Feynman sound like a pedantic asshole. Mind you I agree with his point that those questions are silly, but again he can make this point without bringing in Feynman's corpse and using it as a sockpupet.

tjmaxal 16y ago
Would it have made you feel better if he had invoked Einstein's name? It's satire, relax a little.
- CamperBob 16y ago
  People did that to Einstein all the time, claiming that he followed one religion or God or another, and it actually did piss him off.
tygorius 16y ago
Agreed. This was a cartoonish version of Feynman I found rather pathetic. It is missing the recurring themes of learning and experimentation found in real Feynman stories. Either the old barometer story or the manhole cover story are far superior to this blog post.
ericlippert 16y ago
For the record: I intended no disrespect; I have immense respect and admiration for Feynman. And for the record: I do not think that I am as smart as Feynman; that would be ridiculous. The piece was intended as satire, and is in a long tradition of such dialogues intended to ridicule a "straw man" of a particular position. Consider, for example, Gallileo's Dialogue Concerning Two World Systems, in which the scientist, Salviati, criticizes the position of Simplicio, who believes the earth to be the center of the universe. I couldn't think of a better modern figure to stand for science, reason, clear thinking, and a mischievious sense of fun than Richard Feynman as my Salviati, and I hope that he would appreciate the spirit in which it was presented.

Confusion 16y ago

I find this story unlikely, but probably for a pretty uncommon reason. Here's the thing: I heard this question a number of times before (never in an interview; always on the interwebs), but never attempted to solve it and never read a solution. As I was reading this paragraph: Can I assume that the lights and the switches are correctly wired according to the National Electric Code of the United States? That is, that the switches interrupt the hots, not the neutrals, that the switches are standard-duty switches rated to interrupt 15 amps of 120 volt alternating current, and so on? I instantly realized the intended answer. I don't doubt for a second that if that just happened to me, it would also have happened to Feynman (because I blame being a physicist for what just happened), immediately after first thinking of that important signalling word that he was supposedly about to speak.

ericlippert 16y ago
Of course Feynman knows the intended answer. He's way ahead of the interviewer, and is having some fun with him by deliberately avoiding the "correct" answer.
- Confusion 16y ago
  Reiterating how brilliant Feynman was completely misses my point, which depends on the assumption that Feynman would start out as he did.

anupj 16y ago

I don't think Dr. Feynman talks in such a cryptic language, if you've read his books you would know that he actually talks/writes in a very lucid language. But the person mentioned in the interview does sound like a certain "Sheldon" from the "The Big Bang Theory".

juiceandjuice 16y ago

Feynman would have a better approximation for the resistance of a human. 1K is just way too low.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

shubber 16y ago

"Does your team usually write code whose correctness relies upon undocumented and unreliable correlations, correlations whose magnitudes can vary widely as a result of implementation details?" I loved this implication on a Microsoft website.

loup-vaillant 16y ago

Brain teasers and real life just don't work the same way. The trick is to distinguish them. If a bridge can only support 2 people, maybe it is better to not cross it at all. If you do have to cross it, maybe you can trust your tamed tiger with the goat. Pirates aren't rational agents that use silly rules for sharing the treasure. An egg that doesn't take a scratch when falling from the 13'th floor belongs to wonderland. Few women would kill their cheating husband right away. Fewer still would rely on the perfect rationality of others, and the mayor's to do so. And so on. Brain teasers are fun, but many people (not just Richard Feynman) don't accept their weird assumptions right away, and instead assume a real-life setting.