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U.S. wants the EU to accept chemical-washed chicken as part of trade deal
- cwmma 7y agoI had to look it up, but Sonny Perdue (the secretary of ag) is not related to Perdue farms (large chicken manufacturer)
- runako 7y agoHe is, however, the first cousin of Georgia's Senator David Perdue.
- AcerbicZero 7y agoThis is not a new issue between the US and European nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
- brummm 7y agoI really hope the EU will not allow this kind of US meat into the EU market...
- antr 7y agoIf the EU doesn't the UK will
- brummm 7y agoGood thing they're leaving the EU then...
- antr 7y agoIndeed, and remember to add to that the additional £350 million a week to the NHS. It'll be better than living in Shangri-La
- chriswwweb 7y agoYou realize how small the UK market actually is? (not just compared to europe)
- jaksawesome 7y agoWhich is still better than their chicken--look at the frequency of the presence of campylobacter in raw chicken in the UK. It's absurd to think that they're doing anything better.
- ubercow13 7y agoWe’re vaccinating our chickens. That seems better - we get to eat raw eggs. We also seem to be doing animal welfare better [1]. It seems that the US has essentially no animal welfare regulation for poultry [2]. [1] https://api.worldanimalprotection.org/ https://api.worldanimalprotection.org/ [2] https://www.britishpoultry.org.uk/identity-cms/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2016-ADAS-EU-US-comparison.pdf https://www.britishpoultry.org.uk/identity-cms/wp-content/up... > In the USA, there are currently no federal regulations to control or safeguard the welfare of animals used in agriculture. An Animal Welfare Act is in place but it applies only to animals kept for non-farming purposes. State laws govern animal welfare in some parts of the country but currently no such legislation applies to poultry in any of the three major poultry-producing states considered here (Georgia, Alabama and Arkansas).
- no1youknowz 7y ago> If the EU doesn't the UK will The noises from the UK are that it won't [0]. But in reality let's see. We won't really know what happens until the ink has dried on the trade deal with the US and it has been published. > The UK will not lower food standards to secure a post-Brexit trade deal with the US, the government says. [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47418505 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47418505
- wbazant 7y agoWell, it's a poverty food, and buying and eating meat seems already pretty gross to me, so people who choose to eat this kind of stuff are probably quite desperate and their choices aren't great. I'm sad for the extra animals that will end up living in even worse conditions (EU laws are a bit more generous when it comes to cage sizes etc. ) but I can totally understand that some people will genuinely prefer the US chlorinated chicken to their local mystery flesh products.
- reaperducer 7y agoWell, it's a poverty food I'm not sure what this means. Are you trying to say that poor people shouldn't be allowed to eat?
- TOGoS 7y agoHow is pointing out that poor people are unable to afford high quality food saying that they should not eat?
- dx87 7y agoI've seen some people with the attitude that eating any meat is disgusting, no better than roadkill, and that it should only be done by poor people who can't afford to eat completely plant based diets.
- jfengel 7y agoI think they're saying that poor people shouldn't be coerced by a subsidy system to eat food that has to be chemically treated to remove pathogens, and which causes animal suffering which most people would reject if it weren't kept hidden. There are plenty of ways for poor people to eat healthy diets without harming animals. It's a perverse incentive of the system that grows vast quantities of poor-quality corn and soybeans, cycles them through animals (wasting 90% of the calories in the process), and then feeds people the animals. A system that focused more on feeding people grains and pulses would produce more food for less money. The US in particular is wedded to the notion that meat is essential and primary food, and it set up its entire agriculture industry to making that cheap. It does so at a cost of hidden subsidies, poor-quality and disease-ridden meat, and a lot of animal suffering. You don't have to be a PETA nutjob to object to factory farming. A fairer and less abusive system would, indeed, mean that higher-quality meat is available primarily to rich people. But it's a strawman to say that it means that poor people shouldn't eat. They can eat very well as vegetarians, vegans, or even just people who eat meat occasionally rather than three times a day, every single day.
- moksly 7y agoIf they do, I hope they make sure that it has to be labelled on the food. They do that with a lot of things, and then it’s really easy not to buy it.
- rjzzleep 7y agoThat's the whole point of the trade deals though. It wouldn't be labelled properly, since it would be considered unfair competition.
- chriswwweb 7y agoBut it would be labelled as chicken coming from the US, this makes it easy enough to avoid!? Already today, I always read on the label to find out from what country the meat I'm about to buy comes, I always prefer local over imported as I think it is something little I can do to reduce unnecessary emissions and would hence anyway not buy meat that comes from another continent, just to get it few cents cheaper It is however often not possible when eating meat at restaurant for example :(
- xtian 7y agoInteresting that so much of the activity of "free market" advocates is centered around reducing access to information.
- moksly 7y agoThings that aren’t labelled properly are illegal in a lot of European countries an the EU doesn’t have power to overrule that. GMO products has pushed this hard over the years because almost no one wants to buy them. Hell in Denmark where I live, half of our super market chains outright refuse to carry things like eggs from cage-hens. So they likely wouldn’t ever offer chemical washed chicken American for sale, and they’ll likely even use it in commercial to tell consumers how much better than their competitors they are.
- EugeneOZ 7y agoUnless you're eating in a restaurant.
- sneak 7y agoWhy? Do you believe it is harmful? If so, why?
- gambiting 7y agoI allows horrendous poultry farming practices, which in the US are "fine" because the meat gets washed afterwards anyway, so who cares chickens are standing in their shit until their own feet dissolve - the end product is fine, right? I'm not a vegetarian, but god I hope the American chicken never enters this market.
- sampo 7y ago> Do you believe it is harmful? If so, why? In Europe we believe it's indirectly harmful: Being able to wash germs off meat and eggs allows tolerating more diseases in the farms. If you can't just sanitize diseases off products, you have to keep the farms clean of diseases.
- axlee 7y agoThe same way living in your own feces but taking a shower before leaving the house does not make you a clean person.
- gadders 7y agoIt's just protectionism. It's not like the chicken tastes of bleach. Have you ever eaten food in the US?
- jldugger 7y agoI'm not sure we can trust US resident's opinions on taste as long as Hershey's chocolate still exists.
- magduf 7y ago>I'm not sure we can trust US resident's opinions on taste as long as Hershey's chocolate still exists. As an American, I agree with you 100%. Our opinions on taste are utterly worthless. It's not just Hershey's chocolate either (which is already bad enough), it's so many other foods that are commonplace here. Food quality in this country is abysmal. You can get great food here, but it's harder to find and you'll pay dearly for it, but the stuff that regular Americans eat is generally awful.
- rayiner 7y agoHershey’s chocolate is fine, so is American cheese. (You’d be insane to make S’mores or a grilled cheese with anything else, and if you don’t like those things you’re unamerican and should just move to Europe.)
- joecool1029 7y agoI once heard a Belgian say: "There are two kinds of foods: Those that go with chocolate and those that go with cheese" Hershey's chocolate breaks that rule and contains butryic acid. Here's a link explaining why and how that affects the taste: https://www.chemistryworld.com/podcasts/butyric-acid/1017662.article https://www.chemistryworld.com/podcasts/butyric-acid/1017662... EDIT: To be fair I think the butryric acid thing can be overlooked as an acquired taste. Same way that IRN BRU tastes like bubblegum to Americans, even though UK'ers claim it isn't. I still think Hershey's regular milk chocolate works better with peanut butter than any other chocolate I've had. The bigger issues I have with Hershey are the cloying amounts of sugar they keep adding as they knock down the cocoa butter and cacao solids in each of their products to save money. I used to run boxes of UK KitKats down from Canada's duty free stores so that other Americans could see what they were missing out on.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- p1anecrazy 7y ago“ Am I saying that I'm a chicken wing expert? No. But I am telling you this, the wing is hands down the best part of the chicken.” [1] 1 - https://www.indy100.com/article/trump-snl-sketch-2004-chicken-wing-restaurant-watch-video-9021881 https://www.indy100.com/article/trump-snl-sketch-2004-chicke...
- ArchReaper 7y agoOff topic: Does anyone know how they are blocking scrolling when scripts are disabled and overflow:hidden is taken off body? Infuriating
- C14L 7y agoNo idea, but on Firefox just click "reader view" and it gives you the text nicely formated.
- teekert 7y agoI wonder if the EU will ever say: "Hey, change your methods, we can make trade deal." Perhaps the lack of a charismatic, true leader makes it to risky and it is too easy to avoid public scrutiny. When stuff goes sour, people blame trump. Who will us EU citizens blame?
- tschellenbach 7y agoWhat's the health impact of the chemical-washed chickens?
- advisedwang 7y agoOne objection is that it allows the initial chicken production to be dirtier as you can then just disinfect later even. In the EU, the entire processing needs to be clean.
- mrec 7y agoYes, from what I've seen this is the primary objection (aside from realpolitik considerations i.e. wanting to keep agricultural prices high). Salad has routinely been chlorine-washed in Europe for years, and nobody complains about that.
- guitarbill 7y agoI hope most people would agree chickens are a bit more sentient than salad.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- pintxo 7y agoThey are about as sentient as the salad when this washing we are talking about occurs. (I really hope I understood it correctly that this happens after they have been killed)
- guitarbill 7y agoThe point isn't when the washing occurs, it's in what conditions they have to be kept in before that to either require or not require washing.
- rtkwe 7y ago
- mxscho 7y ago> Perdue on Monday defended [...] the technique to disinfect poultry [...], arguing that U.S. farmers now use a chemical called peracetic acid rather than chlorine: "Peracetic acid ... is a great pathogen reduction treatment. You know what it is? It's vinegar, essentially. To say that's unsafe or not to be used, we don't think there's a basis for that in sound science." I always thought the EU doesn't want this procedure because it effectively allows farmers to take a short cut and cover up bad practices used earlier in the chain. Under this premise, this quote just argues against a straw man for an otherwise meaningless counterargument.
- donatj 7y agoI don't understand the logic. If the end result is unequivocally good, why do the steps along the way matter beyond the "eww" factor?
- the_gastropod 7y ago> If the end result is unequivocally good... I think they'd argue "cleanliness" is not the only aspect of what "good" is. The chickens' diets and living conditions affect the quality of the chicken. To say nothing of the animal cruelty angle...
- noelsusman 7y agoThen why focus on the chemical wash and not the actual problem people care about?
- C14L 7y agoLook, the "Chlorhühnchen" are back! In Germany, this was the favorite scare topic of the press in articles about the TTIP negotiations. So I doubt that they will be able to include that in any new treaty without causing a major freak-out here in Germany.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- joecool1029 7y agoSo, I fail to see the issue with the chemical currently used. Chlorine had obvious negative health issues, but peracetic acid and hydrogen peroxide both decay quickly when exposed to air: http://www.foodprotection.org/files/food-protection-trends/mar-apr-18-walsh.pdf http://www.foodprotection.org/files/food-protection-trends/m... I understand the concerns about using such processes over having a clean processing facility but I don't trust the cheap labor (prisoners, migrant farmers, etc) the US uses to not cause an outbreak. For those doubting this logic please look at the shit lettuce outbreaks we have every 2-3 months.
- rascul 7y agoThere's a decent amount of chicken farming and processing in my area (southern Mississippi). I know a few people who work for Southern Hens. The job isn't great, but the benefits are ok and the pay is fairly good for the area (probably doesn't compare well to other parts of the country, though). Better compensated than the majority of unskilled or even semi skilled labor in the area that I've seen. Certainly not cheap migrant or prisoner labor.
- joecool1029 7y agoI understand it isn't the case everywhere, but slave labor in the US poultry industry is a thing: https://thinkprogress.org/the-hellish-conditions-facing-workers-at-chicken-processing-plants-1eb2f4206968/ https://thinkprogress.org/the-hellish-conditions-facing-work...
- rascul 7y agoTyson is apparently not a great employer, but I'm not sure I would call that slave labor.
- joecool1029 7y agoApologies, I grabbed the wrong link. The one I meant to send is about a supplier for Tyson: https://www.truthdig.com/articles/thought-going-rehab-ended-chicken-plants/ https://www.truthdig.com/articles/thought-going-rehab-ended-...
- mvdwoord 7y agoThe Netherlands has a treaty (against the outcome of the referendum) with the Ukraine which allows for effectively undermining our animal welfare policies. https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2016/05/ukraine-poultry-giant-opens-processing-plant-in-the-netherlands/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2016/05/ukraine-poultry-giant-... If the EU allows this as well (or finds some weird amended way to do the same while proclaiming something else) what's next?
- rokalakt 7y agoWho knows what's next. Cheaper Tesla vehicles, more US technology, less regulation around the EU, and so on. This whole "chemical-washed" paranoia is just propaganda from EU farmers, and EU protectionism. I for one welcome cheaper products, so at least people who barely afford food would at least have an option. Certainly if standards of living are so high around the EU no one would buy such products anyway, right?
- throwaway41968 7y agoBut we don't want cheaper Tesla vehicles. We don't want mass surveillance tools that masquerade as US technology. We don't want poor people to eat chemical-soaked chicken. It may surprise you but not everyone gapes in awe at America as a model to follow around the globe.
- toper-centage 7y agoWe're discussing explicit direct, non-monetary, costs to these "cheaper products". There are no free lunches here.
- chojeen 7y agoDo they still have to label irradiated food in the EU? IIRC many people avoid it because radiation is scary sounding. I have to imagine that chemically treated meat would be an even tougher sell, regardless of how benign it might actually be.
- sharkmerry 7y agoSome stats. EU - ~500 Million people. "In the EU, over 91,000 salmonellosis cases are reported each year." [1] US. ~330 Million People. "CDC estimates Salmonella bacteria cause about 1.35 million infections, 26,500 hospitalizations, and 420 deaths in the United States every year. Food is the source for most of these illnesses." [2] 1- https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/topics/topic/salmonella https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/topics/topic/salmonella 2- https://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/index.html
- cooljacob204 7y agoThis is an estimate vs reported cases. Not exactly good numbers to compare.
- bosswipe 7y agoMaybe, but it's not going to be wrong by several orders of magnitude like this.
- nostromo 7y agoWell, it is though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmonellosis_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmonellosis_in_the_United_St... 142,000 cases were reported annually several years ago. Not 1.3 million. So it is indeed an order of magnitude off. Imagine comparing estimated flu infections vs people that go to the doctor for flu and you'd get similarly ridiculous results.
- ska 7y agoYou are comparing apples and oranges. The 142000 number is from chicken, alone. The 1.3 (or 1.2 at the top of the same wiki page you cite) is for all sources. There is a epidemiological problem here, of a) reported vs. estmated and b) the basis of both those things. But it isn't the one you thought it was.
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- RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago> chemical-washed chicken Isn't all chicken "chemical-washed chicken"? Surely, they wash it in water at some point?
- clSTophEjUdRanu 7y agoDihydrogen monoxide can be a very dangerous solvent.
- SkyBelow 7y agoI find it harder to pay attention to the actual complaint because they word it in such a biased manner to purposefully play on the fears of people who associate 'chemical' with danger. Imagine if someone was complaining about the European produced poultry because of all the chemicals they put in their food.
- mariopt 7y agoI remember when I visited a supermarket in the states and noticed something very weird: Not only chicken breast was super super cheap but the color was whiteish and didn't look right to me. Since a young age I visited egg farms and I can tell you the conditions are far from ideal, they even turn on the lights at 3am to enhance egg production. We're talking about egg farms that are regulated by EU laws. About 12 years ago the EU regulated how many chickens were allowed in a single case (about 8 I believe). Even with EU regulation it is well known that the amount of antibiotics is simple too much and dangerous, we've law holes like: It is regulated in France but you can cross the border and get it in Spain as they don't control who buys it. If this gets approved, I demand it to be labeled.
- gruez 7y ago>I remember when I visited a supermarket in the states and noticed something very weird: Not only chicken breast was super super cheap but the color was whiteish and didn't look right to me. Could it be woody breast? https://old.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/c9lbu3/psa_can_we_talk_about_woody_chicken_breasts/ https://old.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/c9lbu3/psa_can_we_tal... https://www.wsj.com/articles/bigger-chickens-bring-a-tough-new-problem-woody-breast-1459207291 https://www.wsj.com/articles/bigger-chickens-bring-a-tough-n...
- ceejayoz 7y agoThe fat on American chickens is visibly whiter than those I've seen for sale from small local farms as well as the ones in Australia, which both tend to have a much deeper yellow to them. I think that's a diet thing, though. Woody breast tends to give a striated appearance to the meat.
- mariopt 7y agoJust checked the pictures of woody breast and the ones I saw were even whiter. I can tell you that chicken breast in the UK, France and Portugal looks and tastes the same to me.
- threatripper 7y agoRelated is the chicken tax [1] on light trucks which is one big reason why SUVs (which are classified as light trucks) are so popular in the US because US companies can make more profit selling them due to the import tariffs stifling the European competition. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
- uhtred 7y agoWho is still eating meat in 2020? Disgusting. No excuse whatsoever for supporting animal cruelty. Shame on you.
- clSTophEjUdRanu 7y agoMe. It tastes good.
- readarticle 7y agoEveryone outside your bubble.
- derision 7y agoI buy all my meat from Butcher Box. All their meat is humanely raised. All their animals are pasture raised and free to roam. Pigs have bedding in open barns, chickens roost in barns and are free to roam. https://www.butcherbox.com/sourcing/ https://www.butcherbox.com/sourcing/ They work with American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) on their chicken standards as well. Not all meat is cruel.
- pintxo 7y agoWhile that's basically my approach as well, there are people who genuinely believe that raising any animal for the purpose of eating them is cruelty.
- ceejayoz 7y ago> Not all meat is cruel. To be clear, I'd still consider killing me cruel even if you treated me nicely up until that point.
- uhtred 7y agoYou're kidding yourself if you think the meat you buy isn't the product of cruelty.
- dang 7y agoWould you please stop posting flamewar comments to HN? We ban accounts that do that, and between this and "People who believe in God are the assholes", you've been flaming up a bit of a storm here. You've also done it repeatedly in the past. It's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- stiray 7y ago(Read to the end, it is not what you think it is!) I have stopped eating meat in 1990, due to the discusting way the animals are treated and I couldn't care less. At well over 40s I still look young, no gray hair, medical results are fabolus. BUT!!! I would seriously ask all the vegans/vegetarians to STFU, they are annoying to the point where everyone attacks me when I tell him that I don't eat meat and try to argue. It is embarasing that, as a vegetarian (lacto/ovo whatever, who cares), I rather don't tell this to anyone, due to radical groups too stupid to understand, that their aggressive actions are beeing counterproductive. There was an old saying that fighting for peace is like f* for virginity. It just doesn't work. And I am so sorry that I think that there is no need to make every meat eater on barricades due to agrasive stand you unneededly take. Just let people eat whatever they want. They will figure out on their own.
- kdmccormick 7y agoYou may be shocked to find that you are part of the group you are trying to to call out...
- jessaustin 7y agoThis is similar to people who claim to be agnostics rather than atheists. There's nothing wrong with atheism per se, but no reasonable person wants to start any discussion by admitting, "I'm an asshole!"
- uhtred 7y agoOf course there's nothing wrong with atheism, it's rational. People who believe in God are the assholes.
- Jamwinner 7y agoThanks for nailing the point home. Can we just go about our day without insulting people without knowing them? The range of human experince is too vast to be constrained to any one belief system, of which athieism is just another class of variations.
- stewbrew 7y agoI personally don't get this. European supermarkets are full of cheap chicken meat. Can the US food industry actually beat that low quality meat with even cheaper and lower quality junk food and still be profitable? Please somebody call the ALF squat team. This is sick.
- ksec 7y agoQuality issues and Transportation cost aside. US Poultry export prices is actually cheaper than in Europe.
- Proven 7y agoIt doesn't mean people have to buy it. If it's clearly labeled, why does it matter? Some people may buy some if it's cheaper. Also, if that ought to be a topic, is chemical-washed chicken on sale in the US? Why?
- 40acres 7y agoI don't cook meat without chemically washing it either. I was raised on washing meats with vinegar and sour orange and don't compromise on it at all. Chemically washed is quite the spin considering US rates on food poisoning are probably quite low.
- jkh1 7y agoChlorine treatment can make bacteria undetectable by inducing a dormant state [1] so some earlier studies on effectiveness of chemical treatments may not be valid. Also the US and EU have different approaches to meat production. In the EU, the principle is to prevent meat contamination in the first place throughout the food production chain whereas in the US emphasis is placed on decontamination at the end of the chain. Finally, some recent bacterial food poisoning outbreaks in Europe were due to vegetables so comparing numbers of infections without taking the source into consideration can be misleading. 1- https://mbio.asm.org/content/9/2/e00540-18.full https://mbio.asm.org/content/9/2/e00540-18.full
- mzs 7y agoThey are proposing the use of peracetic acid instead of chlorine.
- jkh1 7y agoThis may also induce a kind of dormant state in bacteria as many chemical stresses do. So whether a new chemical treatment is more effective needs to be tested in light of this knowledge. While peracetic acid has known disinfectant properties, it's only been used for washing hands as far as I know, not for ingestion. It's also a very strong irritant even at low concentration, plus it usually contains a mixture of acetic acid, hydrogen peroxide and sulfuric acid in various proportions. I am not sure how this would be controlled and there's been no study on ingestion of this combination of substances in humans.