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The Pacific Ocean is so acidic that it's dissolving Dungeness crabs' shells
- m4r35n357 7y ago451: Unavailable The page you are attempting to access is not available in your country.
- bryanrasmussen 7y agoI'm in EU and the link Slowrobotahead provided works for me.
- nottorp 7y agoBut my oh my, what a dark pattern CNN's tracking opt out screen is. About a hundred 3rd party vendors each with their own checkbox. Of course, they have an accept all button. But not a reject all. The fox5 thingy is more honest, at least they refuse to be accessible from Europe.
- bryanrasmussen 7y agoThere is a select all checkbox that is pre-selected. Click that select all and it deselects all, then click the save preferences text in the bottom of the modal that is designed not look like a button.
- pkaye 7y agoSame article on CNN if that is any better. https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/27/us/pacific-ocean-acidification-crabs-dissolving-shells-scn-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/27/us/pacific-ocean-acidificatio...
- SlowRobotAhead 7y agoProper link if you aren’t in to clickbait: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969720301200# https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896972...! > Using a retrospective prediction from a regression models, we estimate an 8.3% increase in external carapace dissolution over the last two decades and identified a set of affected OA-related sublethal pathways to inform future risk assessment studies of Dungeness crabs. Bad, but it seems no one actually measured this decades ago and it would be nice to have that data vs retrospective prediction. I believe them of course, it would just be nice to have real data if they’re claiming 8.3% estimation and not a range with expected looser precision for their sampling efforts. Edit: for clarity
- klyrs 7y ago@dang this is a much better link >> we estimate an 8.3% increase > it would just be nice to have real data if they’re claiming exactly 8.3% Point of fact, they don't claim "exactly" 8.3% -- they call it an estimate, and the notation indicates uncertainty -- read it as 8.3 ± 0.1%.
- ncmncm 7y agoIt is quite unlikely that they can claim that much precision. "8.3" probably reads as more authoritative than ">8%". Whatever the case, 8% should be deeply alarming. Just how many % indicates a crashing ecosystem, and mass famine? Much of the world depends on ocean catch to get enough protein.
- uniformlyrandom 7y agoTake a look at the graph: https://oceanacidification.noaa.gov/OurChangingOcean.aspx https://oceanacidification.noaa.gov/OurChangingOcean.aspx ~8.1% was not alarming 50 years ago, so why 8.3% should be alarming now? I would be more concerned about the curve slope and shape.
- Pfhreak 7y agoThat graph shows ph, not %. And the seawater ph is decreasing over time. I think perhaps you've misread it?
- klyrs 7y ago> It is quite unlikely that they can claim that much precision. Can you quantify that statement with any rigor?
- ncmncm 7y agoThe point is that 8% +/-1 is just as bad as 8.3% +/-0.1.
- JoshTko 7y agoJust a peek into how entire ecosystems might irreversibly collapse. Just imagine if krill shrimp are similarly affected as they are critical link in the food chain.
- growlist 7y agoSpoiler: evolution
- Mobius01 7y agoThe rate of ecological collapse far outpaces most organisms ability to evolve.
- danharaj 7y agoThe forces that drive evolution will just as indifferently drive the collapse of all human civilization.
- aalleavitch 7y agoYeah this might not turn out good for us.
- nkrisc 7y agoEvolution is something that happens to species that can adapt. The ones that can't just go extinct.
- klyrs 7y agoEvolution generally occurs over hundreds to thousands of generations, and frequently involves a significant bottlenecking event. Humans have a bad track record of harvesting bottlenecked species into extinction. Given that Dungeness crab is (IMO, but I'm not alone on this) the most delicious creature on this earth, this doesn't bode well for future generations of humans enjoying this once-plentiful delicacy
- munk-a 7y agoDungeoness crabs are prized for their size and flavour. Evolution might very well say tough luck - crabs that large aren't sustainable in acidic water. I, personally, think it's pretty selfish for us humans to whine about the difficulty of low flow toilets while species go extinct, but if it helps justify action then do realize that life is going to suck for everyone - steaks and salmon both have very real limits on their survival as climate change continues.
- josefdlange 7y agoThis is an issue in the Puget Sound region as well (and, I'm assuming, many other areas). We're facing an acidification issue that's limiting smaller bivalves' (mussels, oysters) shell production. Generally they do okay once mature, but the seedlings don't stand a chance.
- bondolo 7y agoI was surprised to hear that oyster sprats for the PNW oyster industry are now being grown in Hawaii for this reason.
- josefdlange 7y agoYep! Lots of companies also have indoor laboratories for seeding as well.
- hinkley 7y agoAre we absolutely sure this acidification is caused entirely by carbolic acid and not water treatment and industry? We are in a hole and I'd like to know who's still holding a shovel.
- josefdlange 7y agoAs far as I understand it, it's an effect of lots of runoff finding its way into the sound, in addition to the overall acidification.
- rhacker 7y agoThe article first said it was dissolving, then later it said it was affecting the shell's build up in the first place. Those may both be affected by alkalinity, but which is it technically?
- blix 7y agoThey are the same effect. As the shell minerals grow they are dissolving at the same time. Growing and dissolving are two sides of the same reversible chemical reaction. The equilibrium point is a function of acidity. More acid yields slower growth as well as decreased compound stability. It is not one or the other, it is both.
- rhacker 7y agoThanks good to know!
- jobseeker990 7y agoLast time I went in the ocean I noticed my skin was getting burned a bit. My wife thinks it might be that same ocean acidification. Swim while you can I guess.
- knodi123 7y agoNope. From wikipedia: > Seawater is slightly basic, and ocean acidification involves a shift towards pH-neutral conditions rather than a transition to acidic conditions. Also > Between 1751 and 1996, surface ocean pH is estimated to have decreased from approximately 8.25 to 8.14 So we're not talking about water that is deadly to humans. Just water that disturbs certain delicate biological processes that could have knock-on effects to the food chain.
- munk-a 7y agoI've always gotten rashes from salt-water - I think that's just a thing for some people and I wouldn't read too much into acidification as a cause for that particular problem.
- lm28469 7y agoIt's salt + sun + possible abrasion from sand, the change in pH is meaningless for someone swimming, we're talking about -0.05pH over a few decades or so.
- TallGuyShort 7y agoYou probably feel a painful sensation when getting inoculated too. It's the chemicals the government puts in vaccines.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- legitster 7y agoI worked for a bit for a lobbying firm for commercial fishermen. They would spend money on all sorts of things: global warming, removing mining, removing dams. I asked my boss why weren't doing any messaging around ocean acidification. "You don't tell people about the end of the world. If people knew how fucked they were, they would just get out of the industry and stop supporting us." Seafood is the last wild food that normal people can still affordably and regularly eat. But there is a very real chance that our generation will be the last to do so.
- grawprog 7y agoAt least along the coast and as far as 1000km inland, it won't just be the ocean ecosystems affected. Land mammals, birds and the forests themselves rely on nutrients directly from the ocean. The world as it is relies on oceans having life as it is. The oceans are tied to nearly every ecosystem in the world in some way or another.
- mymythisisthis 7y agoAlready by the twelfth century, fishing pressure and human modification of riverine and estuarine habitats threatened sturgeon populations from Italy to the Baltic. A brief history of aquatic resource use in medieval Europe Richard C. Hoffmann
- djsumdog 7y agoI talked to someone who was an agricultural scientist, working for a fishing company in Seattle. When I brought up how I heard the oceans would be unfishable in 50 years, he said, "That's not true." He want to to say the fishery industry is concerned with sustainability, after all these fisheries have been around for generations and want to stay that way. He claimed they carefully monitored fish populations to maintain stability in fishing. I don't know enough about the subject. He could have been touting the official line fed to him, but he could have also been telling us the honest truth based on his team/company's research.
- jes5199 7y agoacidification is out of their control, though - it's directly linked to global carbon emissions
- flyGuyOnTheSly 7y agoAre CO2 levels higher than they were ~150m years ago when crabs first evolved into being?
- Pfhreak 7y agoThe Jurassic had higher CO2 levels than today, but the rate of change in atmospheric CO2 was much, much slower than today. To provide an analogy: Most folks are concerned about our acceleration, not our velocity. You can accelerate to 60mph slowly and comfortably, or you can accelerate to 60mph fast enough to kill you. It's not like 60mph is the problem, it's that if your biological systems don't have enough time to recover from the acceleration you will suffer consequences.
- SkyBelow 7y agoI think a another example to convey the message to the average person would be slowing down from 60mph. You can do so by pressing on the breaks or by slamming into a tree. Suddenly stopping by hitting a tree is something more people have indirect experience with than the idea of a speed increase strong enough to cause the same problems.
- samatman 7y agoNo, they're lower. But partial pressure of oxygen gas was also higher, and oxygen is highly alkaline.
- FreeFull 7y agoFrom what I could find, oxygen is neither alkaline nor acidic. Bases and acids are ionic when dissolved in water, but O2 isn't.
- samatman 7y agoThere was some hand-waving going on, let me unpack it more fully. Oxygen, the molecule, is apolar and un-ionized. Ozone is not. The amount of ozone in the atmosphere, hence dissolving into the oceans, is predicated on how much oxygen is present during lightning strikes, which is dictated by the partial pressure of oxygen. More generally, oxygen is reactive, and contributes to reactions in an electron-donating capacity, what we call 'oxidizing' whether or not oxygen is involved. Alkalines are oxidizing, acids are reducing; if you add HCL to KOH, the H+ will reduce the OH-, or equivalently, the OH- will oxidize the H+. The safest answer would have actually been: we can do some vague guessing about conditions 150 million years ago, but we certainly can't go back in time and measure it. The existence of crabs is proof that they could form shells under those conditions; what those conditions were, is guesswork.
- jgamman 7y ago"As for the acidifying ocean, NOAA proposes two methods of attack: Reducing our overall carbon footprint to reduce the carbon dioxide absorbed by the sea, or teach wildlife and the people who rely on it to adapt to how the sea will change." teach wildlife to adapt - GLWT
- minimuffins 7y agoWildlife, learn to code.
- justAnotherNET 7y agoI mean, what is evolution if not adaptation? The concern is that the gradient of change is too steep.
- Symmetry 7y agoPeople sometimes consider using sulfur dioxide aerosols to lower global temperatures as an emergency measure. And it might be that there are potential climate emergencies that that would be the least worst option for if we can't otherwise get our act together. But it would be terrible if it came to that because it would make the ocean acidifcation problem even worse.
- atrilumen 7y agoBut this reduced alkalinity is caused directly by the ocean's CO2 absorption, not temperature, right?
- btilly 7y agoYes. It is caused by absorbing CO2 faster than ocean circulation can offset it by dissolving lime from the bottom of the ocean. If the CO2 rises and stays raised, in a few thousand years the Ph will go back to its old value. If we wanted to solve this problem, one of the better ideas is to crush limestone and dump it into the ocean. As a powder so that it dissolves before it can sink.
- toomuchtodo 7y agoThis is brilliant and I feel foolish for never having thought of it. No one is going to stop someone from dumping barges worth of powdered limestone into the ocean; and one with the means could action this immediately. How much limestone do we need?
- abtinf 7y agoThe ocean isn’t acidifying, it is becoming slightly less basic. But that won’t do for scaremongering headlines.
- defterGoose 7y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH
- ncmncm 7y agoBecoming less basic is acidifying. Nobody cares about the absolute pH, except insofar as it affects wildlife and the ability of the oceans to provide protein that billions of people depend on to live. And that is being affected, as noted in TFA.
- usaar333 7y agoAcidifying literally just means dropping ph because you are introducing more acid. (increasing H+ ions)
- logfromblammo 7y agoThe self-ionization constant of water, Kw, changes with temperature, pressure, and ionic strength. Kw is also used as cologarithm pKw. If you are not aware, X = 10^(-pX), and pX = -log(X). So a lower pH is a greater concentration of [H+] (actually [H3O+]), a lower pOH is a greater concentration of [OH-], and a lower pKw is a greater self-ionization of water. pKw decreases with increasing temperature. It decreases with increasing pressure. And it decreases with increasing ionic strength until around 0.6-0.8, then goes back up. While those are held constant, a dropping pH does indicate acidification. pH + pOH = pKw . But if they are not constant, pOH can drop at the same rate as pH, because pKw is also dropping. As long as pH and pOH are both near pKw/2, the solution is neutral. The solution is only acidifying when pH is decreasing faster than pOH. If you become slightly less basic, your pOH goes up. Under normal circumstances, that means pH is going down by an equal amount. Either way you describe it in English, de-alkalinization usually yields the same mathematical results as acidification. Deviation from this rule, which holds at standard temperature and pressure, and constant ionic strength, requires additional explanation.
- makotech222 7y agoCan't wait until the free market fixes this! /s
- ghastmaster 7y ago> The crab larvae that showed signs that their shells were dissolving were smaller than the other larvae, too. From sciencedirect.com: > To our knowledge this is the first time that OA-related dissolution of calcite structures in situ has been demonstrated for crustaceans > Using a retrospective prediction from a regression models, we estimate an 8.3% increase in external carapace dissolution over the last two decades Given that not all larva show signs of OA-dissolution and this is the first study, it would be wise to wait for the next studies, to see actual trends. The present concentration of co2 in the atmosphere according to Zhang, Yi Ge; et al. is the highest in 14m years. Given crabs in general have been around adapting for 145m years, I do not think the current levels will be detrimental.
- Ensorceled 7y agoPeople always say this as if evolution often works on the scale of generations. They had 14M years to adjust to the reduction, why do you think they can adapt to the increase in a decade or two?
- lukastr0 7y ago> Given crabs in general have been around adapting for 145m years, I do not think the current levels will be detrimental. That argument often comes up when discussing wildlife impacts of global warming. The problem is, the rate of CO2 increase vastly exceeds anything that happened naturally. The rate of change is the problem here.
- ghastmaster 7y agoThis is not true. Given that temperature and co2 rise sync with each other(still debated) and OA are fairly synchronous, the steep decline and subsequent rise in temperature from appx. 8400ya - 8000ya(Vinther, B., et al., 2009) exceeds what we are seeing now. Notably that fall and rise was at a much higher temperature as well. I can only assume this has happened many many times previously.
- omgwtfbyobbq 7y ago
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- bondolo 7y agoCool related video that was published just yesterday: "Predator-Prey Interactions Between Crabs and Gastropods" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PvVSCxk5ns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PvVSCxk5ns
- Mikeb85 7y agoIt's not like battery acid is dissolving their shells. The ocean's PH is at around 8.1 which means it's alkaline, not acidic. These creatures rely on calcification for creating their shells, so it's that process which is being disrupted (the article does briefly mention that in between the scary headline and other scary/incorrect assertions). Plenty of bivalves and shellfish live in fresh water which has significantly lower PH levels (more like 7-7.5) and survive so this isn't some harbinger of the apocalypse, but it is change nonetheless.
- maitredusoi 7y agoThanx Mikeb85 , I was asking myself: "am I mad ?" as 8.1 is not acid so... you said so ..., so I am not mad, it just that big news agencies are creating clickbaits .... ;(
- happytoexplain 7y agoApologies, but I don't really understand the parent post's concern or your confusion - do people really think that "too acidic" is a misleading description of the problem, and that this article is therefore clickbait created by "big news agencies"? If an animal adapts to N ph, and has problems at N-0.1 ph, then surely it's rational and honest to say that the animal's environment has become "too acidic" for it, regardless of how acidic the number "seems" to us? Is this somehow different from temperature changes, where I feel like most people wouldn't be confused by what we would feel is "cold" being described as "too warm" for another species?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Mikeb85 7y ago"So acidic" is somewhat misleading when the ocean isn't "acidic" at all, at least based on conventional usage of the word as we typically refer to liquids with PH levels below 7 as acidic and above 7 as basic or alkaline. Also the use of the word 'dissolving' seems somewhat suspect as the crabs with shell defects simply didn't form their shells properly, it wasn't adult crabs melting away in an acidic slurry... A less misleading title would be "PH changes in ocean affect crab shell formation" or something like that.
- hn_throwaway_99 7y agoThe article didn't state this, does anyone know the actual pH change? The oceans are so large and so buffered I'm surprised the magnitude of pH change would be so dramatic.
- fuckyah 7y ago8.2->8.1
- tezzer 7y agoFrom NOAA: "In the 200-plus years since the industrial revolution began, the concentration of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere has increased due to humans burning fossil fuels (such as car emissions) and changing the way land is used (such as deforestation). During this time, the pH of surface ocean waters has fallen by 0.1 pH units. The pH scale, like the Richter scale, is logarithmic, so this change represents approximately a 30 percent increase in acidity." https://www.noaa.gov/education/resource-collections/ocean-coasts-education-resources/ocean-acidification https://www.noaa.gov/education/resource-collections/ocean-co...
- Mikeb85 7y agoBased on some random googling, it seems like it's around 0.1 to 0.15 lower (from ~8.25 to ~8.1).
- philipkglass 7y agoThe oceans are so large and so buffered I'm surprised the magnitude of pH change would be so dramatic. The carbon dioxide isn't distributed evenly throughout the volume of the oceans. The pH change would be significantly slower if the whole volume could equilibrate instantaneously. https://www.whoi.edu/know-your-ocean/ocean-topics/ocean-chemistry/ocean-acidification/ https://www.whoi.edu/know-your-ocean/ocean-topics/ocean-chem... Currently, about half of the anthropogenic (human-caused) carbon dioxide in the ocean is found in the upper 400 meters (1,200 feet) of the water column, while the other half has penetrated into the lower thermocline and deep ocean. Density- and wind-driven circulation help mix the surface and deep waters in some high latitude and coastal regions, but for much of the open ocean, deep pH changes are expected to lag surface pH changes by a few centuries. This is especially a problem for oceanic life because the vast majority of biological productivity and food people eat is also found in that upper portion. The euphotic zone where most photosynthesis takes place extends to about 200 meters below the surface.
- RobertRoberts 7y agoNothing will change until every single person that calls for climate change stops using gas, plastic and any other CO2 causing activity. (like flying in planes, dirty fossil fuel burning ships, etc...) Can't demand others to do it you won't do it first. Edit: Removed hyperbole.
- empath75 7y agoThere's a long history of effective environment regulations around the world that demonstrates the opposite.
- RobertRoberts 7y agoThat's not what I am referring to. You can't get the masses to support climate change when the leaders of climate change are some of the worst polluters.
- snthd 7y ago> Can't demand others to do it you won't do it first. Saving the environment is not about individual choice, it's about fixing an unsustainable system. It's unsustainable because negative externalities are not effectively taxed/banned. Bad behaviour is rewarded financially which further drives change in the wrong direction. Making it about individual choice, and therefore subject to "hypocrisy" is an effective way of preventing change. Divide and conquer. It's undeniably the pervasive narative in the media (but again this can be explained by systemic effects - where does the money come from? Who stands to benefit?). You can demand new rules that come in for everyone at the same time. That's how tax rates change, how universal healthcare systems are established, how slavery is ended. Societies are ultimately shaped by what people believe is possible. Edit: Your comment has changed, but you're still expressing the conviction that everyone has to do things voluntarily. That's not true - only enough power has to come together to make and enforce laws. A high bar, but not as insurmountable.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago> Societies are ultimately shaped by what people believe is possible. This is exactly my point. If 100% of the people calling for climate change "rules/laws" have no ability to follow their own ideas now, what hope is there? (I removed one sentence that I felt was a little inflammatory, it was extraneous)
- SubiculumCode 7y agoAs I was taking a shower this morning watching the suds go down the drain, I thought to myself, "I wonder if we are making the oceans more basic." I guess not. Where does all that soap go then?
- empath75 7y agoHow much carbon dioxide is being absorbed by the ocean compared to soap.
- SubiculumCode 7y agothere is a oit of soap being used in laundry and baths.
- ska 7y ago"a lot" relative to what, ocean volume?
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoTypically, into a wastewater treatment plant, not the ocean.
- vpribish 7y agoscary clickbait from fox (vegas). This is beneath you all - I'm ashamed of this community that can't resist the base sensationalism of a morally bankrupt media source. have some self respect
- peterwwillis 7y agoThe ocean has always been highly acidic, and was only able to support complex life once enough coccolithophores bloomed and died, and the ocean dissolved enough of their carbonate sediments that it made the ocean less acidic. An increase in carbon dioxide has been slowly re-acidifying the ocean. If calcium carbonate-dense phytoplankton die off, the ocean gets fucked, and it'll no longer trap half the carbon dioxide generated on the planet, nor generate over half the planet's oxygen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification
- ska 7y agoThe ocean has always been highly acidic, Can you clarify what you mean here? The ocean is slightly basic.
- turk73 7y agoThose damn crabs better toughen the hell up.
- acvny 7y agoLet them adapt or die
- woodandsteel 7y agoConservatives discount stories like this. That's because they believe the natural world is such that it is impossible for the unregulated operations of the free market change nature in ways that would be harmful to the human race.