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> In the UK, in 2009, it was revealed that the Department for Transport had previously discouraged green waves as they reduced fuel usage, and thus less revenue

> In the UK, in 2009, it was revealed that the Department for Transport had previously discouraged green waves as they reduced fuel usage, and thus less revenue was raised from fuel taxes. Despite this government Webtag documents were only updated in 2011. It is still unclear if the economic appraisal software used to apply these guidelines has also been updated and if the new guidelines are being applied to new projects. Lovely.

Xophmeister 7y ago
I wonder what would be the better pay-off on aggregate: more tax revenue from extra fuel use or -- presuming people get to where they need to be more efficiently -- more tax revenue from the increased productivity/consumerism? I wonder which is better in terms of pollution and other potential negatives? So, which is net cheapest? (My money's on green waves.)
- ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
  You are assuming increased taxes from productivity/consumerism would affect the Department of Transportation's Budget. They overvalue fuel tax specially because a portion of it is earmarked directly to them. This was real by the way, not just a libertarian talking point. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/7998182.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/7998182.stm
  - Xophmeister 7y ago
    Showing my ignorance, but I didn't even realise that tax revenue from a certain stream (e.g., fuel tax) went directly to the government department (e.g., DfT) that instigated it, rather than it being absorbed centrally by the treasury and then redistributed according to fiscal policy. That's interesting. Doesn't that mean that certain departments will be more flush with cash simply by virtue of attracting more tax? (...and, yes, it's upsetting that this happened in real life.)
axaxs 7y ago
Right? Every fiber of my body screams "JUST INCREASE THE TAX!". Figure out the fuel usage drop, if any, and adjust the tax accordingly. Hell, I'd pay double fuel taxes if I didn't have to fight red lights anymore.
- sneak 7y ago
  Tax revenues won’t be very helpful when there are mass crop failures and hundreds of millions starving or thirsty due to climate change. This isn’t about money, it’s about the inherent shortsightedness of and staggering destruction wrought by bureaucrats of any country when they are given incentives of any kind. See also: private prisons, snake/rat bounty, et c.
OliverJones 7y ago
As policies move toward taxing fossil-carbon use aggressively enough to drive reductions, this unintended consequence could prove very troublesome. Competently handled green waves will save transport energy from all sources. And, this kind of thing cries out to be integrated with adaptive cruise control (yeah, Elon, the thing you call "autopilot").
stareatgoats 7y ago
I am all for government taxes, government bodies that oversee food production and commerce, social welfare programs or lay down ground rules for various social activities. It doesn't mean that I think the government totally altruistic, and working solely common good. There is often (or always) a relatively hidden agenda which is conflated with the by all means honorable motives, like covering the costs of public services, saving the climate, or protecting us from a foreign adversary. Seldom does the ulterior motive reveal itself so clearly as in this case however. Instead thinking this is a one-off, we should really be inspired to produce or look for a service where all policy decisions were inspected not only on the aspects that the politicians or public servant say but all relevant aspects, to find out the other reasons (not necessary more "real", but relevant too). Somewhere deep among those other reasons there may be an effect that is actually not for the common good.

Xophmeister 7y ago

I wonder what would be the better pay-off on aggregate: more tax revenue from extra fuel use or -- presuming people get to where they need to be more efficiently -- more tax revenue from the increased productivity/consumerism? I wonder which is better in terms of pollution and other potential negatives? So, which is net cheapest? (My money's on green waves.)

ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
You are assuming increased taxes from productivity/consumerism would affect the Department of Transportation's Budget. They overvalue fuel tax specially because a portion of it is earmarked directly to them. This was real by the way, not just a libertarian talking point. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/7998182.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/7998182.stm
- Xophmeister 7y ago
  Showing my ignorance, but I didn't even realise that tax revenue from a certain stream (e.g., fuel tax) went directly to the government department (e.g., DfT) that instigated it, rather than it being absorbed centrally by the treasury and then redistributed according to fiscal policy. That's interesting. Doesn't that mean that certain departments will be more flush with cash simply by virtue of attracting more tax? (...and, yes, it's upsetting that this happened in real life.)

axaxs 7y ago

Right? Every fiber of my body screams "JUST INCREASE THE TAX!". Figure out the fuel usage drop, if any, and adjust the tax accordingly. Hell, I'd pay double fuel taxes if I didn't have to fight red lights anymore.

sneak 7y ago
Tax revenues won’t be very helpful when there are mass crop failures and hundreds of millions starving or thirsty due to climate change. This isn’t about money, it’s about the inherent shortsightedness of and staggering destruction wrought by bureaucrats of any country when they are given incentives of any kind. See also: private prisons, snake/rat bounty, et c.

OliverJones 7y ago

As policies move toward taxing fossil-carbon use aggressively enough to drive reductions, this unintended consequence could prove very troublesome. Competently handled green waves will save transport energy from all sources. And, this kind of thing cries out to be integrated with adaptive cruise control (yeah, Elon, the thing you call "autopilot").

stareatgoats 7y ago

I am all for government taxes, government bodies that oversee food production and commerce, social welfare programs or lay down ground rules for various social activities. It doesn't mean that I think the government totally altruistic, and working solely common good. There is often (or always) a relatively hidden agenda which is conflated with the by all means honorable motives, like covering the costs of public services, saving the climate, or protecting us from a foreign adversary. Seldom does the ulterior motive reveal itself so clearly as in this case however. Instead thinking this is a one-off, we should really be inspired to produce or look for a service where all policy decisions were inspected not only on the aspects that the politicians or public servant say but all relevant aspects, to find out the other reasons (not necessary more "real", but relevant too). Somewhere deep among those other reasons there may be an effect that is actually not for the common good.