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To an extent, this sounds terrifying. The first thing that jumped to my mind is that GPS be jammed or spoofed. In fact, the U.S. military in its shift away from

To an extent, this sounds terrifying. The first thing that jumped to my mind is that GPS be jammed or spoofed. In fact, the U.S. military in its shift away from COIN to great power competition in possibly highly contested environments is training to have less reliance on GPS: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-26/usaf-begins-massive-gps-blackouts-western-us-during-largest-ever-air-war-drill https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-26/usaf-begins-massiv... Radar can be jammed too, but I would guess the EM signature powerful enough to track. I don't know if GPS jammers would have that issue. On a positive note, I think this would pave the way towards integrating commercial drone infrastructure into our airways a lot better!

elil17 7y ago
I’d feel a lot more comfortable if they retained RADAR as a backup - why not have both?
- stephen_g 7y ago
  I can’t read the article (paywalled), but I would expect primary radar isn’t going anywhere around airports. We still have it, and our commercial planes have been required to have ADS-B transponders here for more than a decade. This is just for en-route tracking.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Where is "here" that's required ADS-B for over a decade?
- adventured 7y ago
  They're not doing away with radar and it's not going to be a backup. They're going to use both.
freeone3000 7y ago
Radar has been jammed in the past by accident, since home routers now operate on the same band. See https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/fcc-accused-of-locking-down-wi-fi-routers-but-the-truth-is-a-bit-murkier/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/fcc-a... . 5G coming in doesn't improve matters. GPS is actually reserved, so there's going to be a lot less accidental interference.
- gruez 7y ago
  >GPS is actually reserved, so there's going to be a lot less accidental interference. that's only a plus if you're not expecting malicious interference. how much harder is radar to spoof compared to GPS?
  - freeone3000 7y ago
    Considering it's unauthenticated, and you can buy a broadcaster in the proper band for $50 at Best Buy and load it with DD-WRT? I'm going with "as easy if not easier than GPS", considering GPS spoofing requires equipment you likely don't already have (a can of Pringles and your current router).
    - gruez 7y ago
      The keyword here is spoof. There's no doubt that you can jam the ground receiver (both radar and ADS-B). The key question is whether you can spoof radar returns as easily as ADS-B transmissions.
  - tastyfreeze 7y ago
    Well some stealth is base on spoofing part of a radar return. Absorb as much of the incoming radar as possible and alter the reflection using a phased array. So its not impossible just more expensive. According to the crew on the USS Zumwalt they can make a 600' ship look as large as a cruise ship or as small as a fishing vessel. This ship is covered in radar absorbent materials and has a giant phased array to accomplish this.
adatavizguy 7y ago
We still maintain Loran C[0]. Interesting to note receivers have been developed to grab the radio signal from all available stations, up to 40, and triangulate location with eLoran. It's a nice to have as backup to GPS however I'm not sure if it is effective against jamming or spoofing. So, the navy still teaches celestial navigation to officers. [1] EDIT: Apparently Loran C was discontinued in 2010. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C [1] https://www.stripes.com/news/break-out-the-sextant-navy-teaching-celestial-navigation-again-1.391219 https://www.stripes.com/news/break-out-the-sextant-navy-teac...
- sokoloff 7y ago
  > We still maintain Loran C What does "still maintain" mean in this context? My Loran-C receiver stopped working years ago when we turned off the signals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C#Loran-C_in_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C#Loran-C_in_the_21st_ce...
- jcrawfordor 7y ago
  Loran-C has been discontinued. However, there are occasional ongoing proposals to restore it as "eLORAN" using newer digital transmitting and receiving equipment, to provide a terrestrial backup for GNSS. These have mostly fallen flat for simple funding reasons, but increasing attention to ASAT warfare keeps discussions going.
sparker72678 7y ago
This isn't about throwing away radar, it's about augmenting the current system with more accurate data for better and safer management of airspace. Most airplanes already rely heavily on GPS for their own navigation. If GPS is being jammed (or having any other clear issue) they'll fall back to their many other redundant navigation instruments. If you want to be scared, be scared about spoofing of ILS signals, where a couple of dozen feet of error can be fatal. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/05/the-radio-navigation-planes-use-to-land-safely-is-insecure-and-can-be-hacked/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/05/the-r...
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > This isn't about throwing away radar, ... *all radar. Certainly around airports radar will be kept, but there are a few (remote?) places where aging infrastructure will not be replaced. On the plus side, there are areas that had no coverage (Gulf of Mexico) which now get traffic information from receivers that are easier to run than radar towers.

elil17 7y ago

I’d feel a lot more comfortable if they retained RADAR as a backup - why not have both?

stephen_g 7y ago
I can’t read the article (paywalled), but I would expect primary radar isn’t going anywhere around airports. We still have it, and our commercial planes have been required to have ADS-B transponders here for more than a decade. This is just for en-route tracking.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Where is "here" that's required ADS-B for over a decade?
adventured 7y ago
They're not doing away with radar and it's not going to be a backup. They're going to use both.

freeone3000 7y ago

Radar has been jammed in the past by accident, since home routers now operate on the same band. See https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/fcc-accused-of-locking-down-wi-fi-routers-but-the-truth-is-a-bit-murkier/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/fcc-a... . 5G coming in doesn't improve matters. GPS is actually reserved, so there's going to be a lot less accidental interference.

gruez 7y ago
>GPS is actually reserved, so there's going to be a lot less accidental interference. that's only a plus if you're not expecting malicious interference. how much harder is radar to spoof compared to GPS?
- freeone3000 7y ago
  Considering it's unauthenticated, and you can buy a broadcaster in the proper band for $50 at Best Buy and load it with DD-WRT? I'm going with "as easy if not easier than GPS", considering GPS spoofing requires equipment you likely don't already have (a can of Pringles and your current router).
  - gruez 7y ago
    The keyword here is spoof. There's no doubt that you can jam the ground receiver (both radar and ADS-B). The key question is whether you can spoof radar returns as easily as ADS-B transmissions.
- tastyfreeze 7y ago
  Well some stealth is base on spoofing part of a radar return. Absorb as much of the incoming radar as possible and alter the reflection using a phased array. So its not impossible just more expensive. According to the crew on the USS Zumwalt they can make a 600' ship look as large as a cruise ship or as small as a fishing vessel. This ship is covered in radar absorbent materials and has a giant phased array to accomplish this.

adatavizguy 7y ago

We still maintain Loran C[0]. Interesting to note receivers have been developed to grab the radio signal from all available stations, up to 40, and triangulate location with eLoran. It's a nice to have as backup to GPS however I'm not sure if it is effective against jamming or spoofing. So, the navy still teaches celestial navigation to officers. [1] EDIT: Apparently Loran C was discontinued in 2010. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C [1] https://www.stripes.com/news/break-out-the-sextant-navy-teaching-celestial-navigation-again-1.391219 https://www.stripes.com/news/break-out-the-sextant-navy-teac...

sokoloff 7y ago
> We still maintain Loran C What does "still maintain" mean in this context? My Loran-C receiver stopped working years ago when we turned off the signals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C#Loran-C_in_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loran-C#Loran-C_in_the_21st_ce...
jcrawfordor 7y ago
Loran-C has been discontinued. However, there are occasional ongoing proposals to restore it as "eLORAN" using newer digital transmitting and receiving equipment, to provide a terrestrial backup for GNSS. These have mostly fallen flat for simple funding reasons, but increasing attention to ASAT warfare keeps discussions going.

sparker72678 7y ago

This isn't about throwing away radar, it's about augmenting the current system with more accurate data for better and safer management of airspace. Most airplanes already rely heavily on GPS for their own navigation. If GPS is being jammed (or having any other clear issue) they'll fall back to their many other redundant navigation instruments. If you want to be scared, be scared about spoofing of ILS signals, where a couple of dozen feet of error can be fatal. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/05/the-radio-navigation-planes-use-to-land-safely-is-insecure-and-can-be-hacked/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/05/the-r...

throw0101a 7y ago
> This isn't about throwing away radar, ... *all radar. Certainly around airports radar will be kept, but there are a few (remote?) places where aging infrastructure will not be replaced. On the plus side, there are areas that had no coverage (Gulf of Mexico) which now get traffic information from receivers that are easier to run than radar towers.