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> sadly inefficient but at least repairable? Wait until you hear about cars! Fortunately for the big corporations, most people lack even the most basic mechan

> sadly inefficient but at least repairable? Wait until you hear about cars! Fortunately for the big corporations, most people lack even the most basic mechanical skills and are totally reliant upon others to do even trivial maintenance. Thus almost everything is becoming disposable because it's cheaper to throw something away than it is to pay a technician to fix it, parts notwithstanding. Car makers are really hoping the EV thing sticks so they can force you to buy a brand new car every 5-6 years once the battery is toast.

bronco21016 7y ago
Still driving my bought and paid for 2011 Ford. It’s borderline unrepairable on some stuff but FORSCAN gives capabilities to access most ECUs so barring any major failure I should drive it until it rusts out. But unfortunately you’re right. It’s probably the single biggest thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on a Tesla.
- outworlder 7y ago
  You think Tesla will force you to buy a new car? https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty > Model 3 - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period. But that's warranty. https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/ https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat... Some forum discussion: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cost-battery-pack-10-years-now https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cost-battery-pack-10-y... Keep your car if it works for you. Financially that's the sensible choice regardless of technology. But you should expect to have less maintenance work if/when you switch to an EV.
  - bronco21016 7y ago
    No not that they’ll make me replace it. That they’ll make it impossible for me to repair myself.
- hansthehorse 7y ago
  I live outside the rust belt and my 2012 Civic has been paid for the last 5 years and trouble free. No repairs outside of wearing parts like shocks, brakes and a serpentine belt which was replaced even though the techs told me it didn't need it. I was just worried that 140k miles was enough service out of it. My ongoing service has been 5k oil and filter changes plus tire rotation. I've never missed that service. Take care of a quality car and it will last outside of the rust area of the US. I fully expect to keep this car until it starts to have electrical issues, if it ever does. In my experience once a car starts down that road it's time to move on.
  - EvanAnderson 7y ago
    140K miles on that Civic is just breaking it in, for sure. My wife's 1995 Civic has over 330K on it, and my daily driver 2007 Civic is nearing 200K. They both burn very little oil and neither has lost appreciable fuel economy. We do try to take good care of them, from a maintenance perspective. (I'm in Ohio, and the road salt is taking its toll, however.)
outworlder 7y ago
> Car makers are really hoping the EV thing sticks so they can force you to buy a brand new car every 5-6 years once the battery is toast. What? No. This doesn't make sense at all. First, most traditional manufacturers are NOT keen on having their fleet replaced. They don't want to cannibalize their own products. When they can, they will even retake possession of 'compliance cars' and destroy them. Second, dealerships are also NOT pushing EVs. EVs make very little money due to less maintenance. Third, no EV battery is toast after 5 years, except maybe first generation Nissan Leaf batteries (lookup 'lizard battery' if you are interested). Tesla's should last for 10 or more. They really cannot prevent aftermarket batteries from being installed, or individual cells replaced. They can try to make the process more difficult (as GE is doing), but if there's enough incentive it will be circumvented. Anything that does not deal with the drivetrain works just the same as any other car. You might have a point if you mentioned the EV electronics. But can you repair a car ECU? Most likely, you can't. If that fails, you replace it. Same thing here, except there's less to replace.
- tjoff 7y ago
  Truly hope and believe batteries last much longer than 10 years. Imagine how abysmal the second hand prices would be to offset a new battery pack after 10 years. The environmental impact would be really bad as well.
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    Or, most likely, it will be economical to recycle batteries, especially if they contain rare elements
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      Recycle is still worse than reuse - these batteries can be reused for a few years more as backup power supplies.
      - raverbashing 7y ago
wedowhatwedo 7y ago
Interesting. My 2012 Chevy Volt has the exact same range today it had in 2012 when I bought it. Maybe I got lucky.
- userbinator 7y ago
  I suspect there's compensation/"excess space" for wear over time, somewhat like spare blocks on SSDs, and when it was new, it would've had even better range if it didn't have that compensation. Related: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-irma-update-florida-extend-range-model-s-x-60-60d https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-...
  - hvidgaard 7y ago
    That is such a lovely thing for a big company to do in this day and age. It probably also allows them to use the battery optimally, i.e. not fully charge or discharge, for a longer lasting battery.
- nuccy 7y ago
  Chevy Volt has one of the best batteries among all EVs with excellent thermal control system. In Ukraine it is common these day to buy damaged EVs from US and restore them to brand-new state, including Tesla, Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt. One of the shops has a Youtube channel and they made an episode comparing batteries from different cars. Chevy Volt's battery cell survived already about 3000 cycles without noticible loss of charge, the test is being running for years already, charging-discharging it every 30 minutes.

bronco21016 7y ago

Still driving my bought and paid for 2011 Ford. It’s borderline unrepairable on some stuff but FORSCAN gives capabilities to access most ECUs so barring any major failure I should drive it until it rusts out. But unfortunately you’re right. It’s probably the single biggest thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on a Tesla.

outworlder 7y ago
You think Tesla will force you to buy a new car? https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty > Model 3 - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period. But that's warranty. https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/ https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat... Some forum discussion: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cost-battery-pack-10-years-now https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cost-battery-pack-10-y... Keep your car if it works for you. Financially that's the sensible choice regardless of technology. But you should expect to have less maintenance work if/when you switch to an EV.
- bronco21016 7y ago
  No not that they’ll make me replace it. That they’ll make it impossible for me to repair myself.
hansthehorse 7y ago
I live outside the rust belt and my 2012 Civic has been paid for the last 5 years and trouble free. No repairs outside of wearing parts like shocks, brakes and a serpentine belt which was replaced even though the techs told me it didn't need it. I was just worried that 140k miles was enough service out of it. My ongoing service has been 5k oil and filter changes plus tire rotation. I've never missed that service. Take care of a quality car and it will last outside of the rust area of the US. I fully expect to keep this car until it starts to have electrical issues, if it ever does. In my experience once a car starts down that road it's time to move on.
- EvanAnderson 7y ago
  140K miles on that Civic is just breaking it in, for sure. My wife's 1995 Civic has over 330K on it, and my daily driver 2007 Civic is nearing 200K. They both burn very little oil and neither has lost appreciable fuel economy. We do try to take good care of them, from a maintenance perspective. (I'm in Ohio, and the road salt is taking its toll, however.)

outworlder 7y ago

> Car makers are really hoping the EV thing sticks so they can force you to buy a brand new car every 5-6 years once the battery is toast. What? No. This doesn't make sense at all. First, most traditional manufacturers are NOT keen on having their fleet replaced. They don't want to cannibalize their own products. When they can, they will even retake possession of 'compliance cars' and destroy them. Second, dealerships are also NOT pushing EVs. EVs make very little money due to less maintenance. Third, no EV battery is toast after 5 years, except maybe first generation Nissan Leaf batteries (lookup 'lizard battery' if you are interested). Tesla's should last for 10 or more. They really cannot prevent aftermarket batteries from being installed, or individual cells replaced. They can try to make the process more difficult (as GE is doing), but if there's enough incentive it will be circumvented. Anything that does not deal with the drivetrain works just the same as any other car. You might have a point if you mentioned the EV electronics. But can you repair a car ECU? Most likely, you can't. If that fails, you replace it. Same thing here, except there's less to replace.

tjoff 7y ago
Truly hope and believe batteries last much longer than 10 years. Imagine how abysmal the second hand prices would be to offset a new battery pack after 10 years. The environmental impact would be really bad as well.
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Or, most likely, it will be economical to recycle batteries, especially if they contain rare elements
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Recycle is still worse than reuse - these batteries can be reused for a few years more as backup power supplies.
    - raverbashing 7y ago

wedowhatwedo 7y ago

Interesting. My 2012 Chevy Volt has the exact same range today it had in 2012 when I bought it. Maybe I got lucky.

userbinator 7y ago
I suspect there's compensation/"excess space" for wear over time, somewhat like spare blocks on SSDs, and when it was new, it would've had even better range if it didn't have that compensation. Related: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-irma-update-florida-extend-range-model-s-x-60-60d https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-...
- hvidgaard 7y ago
  That is such a lovely thing for a big company to do in this day and age. It probably also allows them to use the battery optimally, i.e. not fully charge or discharge, for a longer lasting battery.
nuccy 7y ago
Chevy Volt has one of the best batteries among all EVs with excellent thermal control system. In Ukraine it is common these day to buy damaged EVs from US and restore them to brand-new state, including Tesla, Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt. One of the shops has a Youtube channel and they made an episode comparing batteries from different cars. Chevy Volt's battery cell survived already about 3000 cycles without noticible loss of charge, the test is being running for years already, charging-discharging it every 30 minutes.