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In India What We Are Seeing Is the Symptoms of Fascism: Noam Chomsky

160 points by ashleshbiradar 7y ago

Despegar 7y ago
Excellent New Yorker piece about this (I submitted it to HN when it came out but it didn't get any traction): https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil-in-narendra-modis-india https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil... Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims.
- kbenson 7y ago
  With such a large percentage of the population of not just the country in question in the article, but also the entire world, I'm not sure they can be seen to be "the other" to the same degree as the Jews were, given how common they are. In 1933, there were an estimated 15 million Jews worldwide[1], 9 million or so in Europe. In Germany, with the largest Jewish population, they accounted for less than 1% of the populace. In India today, Muslims account for close to 15% of the population. According to wikipedia, they're very close to 25% of the entire world population. There may be some vilification going on, but when the other group is as large as that, I doubt you can expect a similar outcome or as much of a one sided narrative in the places where it's attempted. 1: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jewish-population-of-europe-in-1933-population-data-by-country https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jewish-pop...
  - bobthepanda 7y ago
    Jews weren't a small population of some European countries' population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland > One-fifth of the Polish population perished during World War II; the 3,000,000 Polish Jews murdered in The Holocaust, who constituted 90% of Polish Jewry, made up half of all Poles killed during the war.[15][16] Given that Germany at the time had an official policy of expanding into its neighboring countries, some with very high Jewish populations, your statement is at best misleading.
    - kbenson 7y ago
      > Jews weren't a small population of some European countries' population Yes, but those weren't the countries that had successful info campaigns against that sub-population, to my knowledge. It took Poland's defeat by Germany before Germany could enforce their own policies (developed in a nation with a much lower Jewish population). Indeed, your own source notes that in the pre-war period while there was increases anti-semitism, and some increased violence, there was nothing like what happened in Germany. > Given that Germany at the time had an official policy of expanding into its neighboring countries, some with very high Jewish populations, your statement is at best misleading. I don't think so, but I can see how you might think so. I believe I misinterpreted what the top level comment was trying to express, and as such my comment isn't really addressing that. I think because of this you're also inferring that my comment is meant to convey something it's not. So, to clarify, yes, I believe Fascism is on the rise and targeted at Muslims this time. I don't think it's the same as what happened in Germany for the reasons I noted, which wasn't what was stated so it's a bit of a non-sequitur on my part, but it is where my mind went when I was reading it.
      - bzbarsky 7y ago
        > Yes, but those weren't the countries that had successful info campaigns against that sub-population, to my knowledge. Yes, the Poles were not trying to kill all the Jews in Poland. But "othering" Jews in Poland was _very_ par for the course, as was violence directed at them, discrimination against them, etc.
  - Despegar 7y ago
    Some things happening to Muslims in the world today (in addition to India) off the top of my head: -Genocide of Rohingya in Myanmar -Ethnic cleansing of Uyghurs in China Then there's just garden variety xenophobic polices like travel bans from predominately Muslim countries in the US to the electoral gains of various far right parties in Europe because of the refugee crisis. Pretty wide spread there, but clearly fascism is on the rise.
    - kbenson 7y ago
      I didn't want to imply fascism wasn't on the rise, just some differences I saw. That said, as I covered in a cousin comment, I believe I was misinterpreting what you were trying to express to some degree.
    - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
      > Then there's just garden variety xenophobic polices like travel bans from predominately Muslim countries in the US Yes, I did not agree when Obama selected those countries.
    - artificial 7y ago
      Communists gonna communist and slaughter just like in the past? How many people died to that ideology in the past century compared to Fascism? Multiples, yet it isn't viewed by the West with similar distain (see Che shirts). Historically the biggest threat to Muslims are other Muslims, they're not a giant uniform block, the sects have been warring with one another for close to 1500 years and aren't slowing down.
    - Retric 7y ago
      Rohingga are split Muslims and Hinduism. So it’s not about a specific religion, but rather an ethnic group. Similarly Jewish is an ethnic group with many Christians and atheists being killed in the holocaust.
    - newfriend 7y ago
      > xenophobic polices like travel bans from predominately Muslim countries Countries included in the travel ban: * Iran * Libya * North Korea * Somalia * Syria * Venezuela * Yemen What do these countries have in common? Hint: it's not Muslims.
  - nashashmi 7y ago
    They are other with respect to status as minorities in certain populations. They are also other with respect to minority influence or substandard representation in national and international affairs.
  - bzbarsky 7y ago
    > In Germany, with the largest Jewish population Uh... you mean if you ignore Poland, Romania, and the USSR? > they accounted for less than 1% of the populace From the same article you cited, it was 9.5% in Poland, 3.4% in the USSR (which had a larger population than Germany), 4% in Romania, 4.9% in Latvia, 7.6% in Lithuania, 5% in Hungary. The fraction of Jews in Poland, or the other countries I menioned, did nothing to prevent them being seen as "the other" there, if you read some contemporary accounts.
    - kbenson 7y ago
      > From the same article you cited, it was 9.5% in Poland, 3.4% in the USSR (which had a larger population than Germany), 4% in Romania, 4.9% in Latvia, 7.6% in Lithuania, 5% in Hungary. Yes, I was mistakenly going from numbers presented for Western Europe. > The fraction of Jews in Poland, or the other countries I menioned, did nothing to prevent them being seen as "the other" there, if you read some contemporary accounts. As I covered elsewhere, I was (because of my own misinterpretation) approaching this more from a Nazi Germany standpoint, and trying to highlight differences from that. I think there's a reason why Jews were able to be scapegoated to the degree they were in Germany, and why it wasn't as bad elsewhere, and I think a lot of that is to do with relative population sizes. At ~1%, you can force your will on a people. At 15-25%, that's a civil war if you try, and there's enough people of that population that it's very hard to not have exposure to a degree that deflates some of that "the other" rhetoric. It's like if the same were applied to latino and hispanic people in the United States, which account for just over 16% of the population in the 2010 census. Not illegal aliens, but all people of that race. That's a really hard sell, because almost everyone knows someone personally that falls into that category that helps go against that narrative just by existing and having contact. I'm willing to bet it's easier in some areas of the world with similar percentages because the influx of Muslims is more recent and less established, but I'm not immediately convinced it's enough to get to what we saw in Germany. If you want to restrict the discussion to a very vague "the other" that's less extreme, then I'm not really in disagreement. I do believe there are attempts to use Muslims as convenient scapegoats. I'm just not sure to what degree it works in a lot of places, given how many Muslims there are there (and to the degree it works, I think the number of Muslims means there will be a very different response from them if some group attempts to ramp it up).
- rayiner 7y ago
  > Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims. As someone from a Muslim country, this comparison strikes me as facile and ignorant. It’s not just a group of people being viewed as “the other.” Even Muslim majority countries are facing challenges. In Bangladesh, the government is taking actions that people in western countries would probably liken to “fascism.” E.g. banning Muslim political parties. The problem these countries are grappling with is that they’re not just dealing with a group of people who happen to be different. There is a political ideology that crosses national borders and seeks to supplant existing institutions and governments. There is a lot of foreign money flowing into Bangladesh, to fund madrasas (schools) that teach hard line religion. Egypt and Turkey both fought these forces for decades, struggling to maintain secular, western institutions, and ultimately lost. That is not to say that I don’t find Modi’s actions, or Bannon’s rhetoric, etc., troubling. I do. It’s just that there is a lot more here than you can understand through shallow analogies or the lens of western politics.
  - x1ph0z 7y ago
    Yeah the madrasa funding from S.A and others is a real poison pill. As a Bangladeshi, it was really disheartening to go through the countryside and see poverty in villages with oppulent mosques.
  - Psyladine 7y ago
    Fascism will always seed as a reactionary impulse against competing traditions. And it is competition, on a culturally genetic level. The choices for all immigrants are assimilation or coexistence, and the latter is a strong lightning rod for the anxieties of neighbors wary of anything different.
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    The question is does Sheikh Hasina think that she has free hand from India to be anti democratic as long as she keeps these guys in line? It’s kind of hard to tell these religious types that death penalty for blasphemy is a no go when you’re handing it out to your political opponents.
- jammygit 7y ago
  Trump likes to target Mexicans too and openly has said he would like to be in Putin’s position with a dynasty. A surprising number of Americans are okay with this. Next election is going to be dramatic. Then there’s China and its minorities being swept into mass concentration camps. Reminds me, I wonder what is happening in Hong Kong right now Edit: update on hk https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-22/hong-kong-retailers-are-struggling-as-anti-china-protests-rage?srnd=businessweek-v2 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-22/hong-kong...
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    > Trump... openly has said he would like to be in Putin’s position with a dynasty. A surprising number of Americans are okay with this. Would you count the Bushes as a dynasty? The Clintons (had Hillary won)? The Adams? A surprising number of Americans do not see being president as disqualifying your close relatives from ever being president. [Edit: Trump has said that he would like a third term. I don't know of any Americans that are actually OK with this. A surprising number are still OK with Trump after he said that, but that's not the same thing. You can support Trump and still expect - even demand - that two terms will be the limit of his power.]
    - happytoexplain 7y ago
      >Trump has said that he would like a third term. I don't know of any Americans that are actually OK with this. Boy, we must not hang out in the same bars.
- ComputerGuru 7y ago
  Resubmitted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22131786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22131786 I just finished reading it, it took me the better part of an hour but it’s certainly worth the time.
- noarchy 7y ago
  >Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims. This calls to mind the recent debates over Bill 21 in Quebec, that banned religious symbols for many government employees. It was clear that it was motivated by anti-Islamic sentiment, but it was disguised as a move toward "secularism".
  - samiru 7y ago
    Are you sure? The motivation for this could be interpreted as pro-Islamic too, in the sense that old religious symbols (in this case Christian) are removed from public places as the proportion of muslims in the population grows. This is happening in Nordic countries and my feeling is that we are paradoxically moving away from secularism at this point.
    - noarchy 7y ago
      >Are you sure? The motivation for this could be interpreted as pro-Islamic too, in the sense that old religious symbols (in this case Christian) are removed from public places as the proportion of muslims in the population grows. Very sure. Originally, the National Assembly was not going to remove the crucifix that had long been hanging in their chamber. Only after some uproar did they backpedal on this. More recently, the Premier of the province made the mistake of being caught suggesting that all French-Canadians are Catholic. This effectively exposes the lie that this was about secularism, rather than a bunch of white Catholics being afraid of a growing minority. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/catholic-quebec-california-fran%C3%A7ois-legault-gavin-newsom-1.5393170 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/catholic-quebec-cali...
cptaj 7y ago
This guy is a joke. He spent decades supporting the Chavist revolution in Venezuela. He has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.
- weirdstuff 7y ago
  After a long and respected career at MIT he’s no joke.
  - jackfoxy 7y ago
    He is not a joke in his field. He is highly intelligent. He has carte blanche to publish commentary on any topic he chooses, and some pundits will pick it up and say see, this well respected and smart guys says this, listen to him!
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - spamizbad 7y ago
      He's not a joke in our field either unless you're coding in like FLOW-MATIC or assembly.
  - vondur 7y ago
    Did he really support the Chavez regime? That’s something I’d like to know.
    - puranjay 7y ago
      He isn't some foreign affairs expert. He made the decision to support Chavez based on the information he (and we) had access to at that time, much of which painted Chavez favorably. We, of course, came to know later that the house was rotting on the inside. But that's just hindsight
      - im3w1l 7y ago
wtmt 7y ago
> NC: One thing that’s happened is the press has been pretty much muzzled. They are very uncritical. This is a big issue with mass media in India that many don’t realize or want to realize. Between — a) most of the mainstream media houses (except a few) not asking tough questions (but supporting the government for everything), b) the Supreme Court ignoring important cases and not hearing them for years and c) the amount of fake news spread through WhatsApp — the liberal forums in India are filled with stories of how people are losing relationships or finding it difficult to digest the fact that their loved ones are close minded bigots. Twitter has become a cesspool of bots, political party “IT Cells” and people copy pasting the same messages and hashtags, while WhatsApp has become the main source of truth (actually falsehood) for most people.
- amriksohata 7y ago
  Can you give examples of being muzzled?
  - saq7 7y ago
    One example is looking at the coverage The Hindu gave the BJP, RSS, and Modi before he came power and after. Before they were critical of BJP when it warranted, but since they came into power the coverage has been fawning. This sort of comparision can be made across the spectrum of the news media. They are smarter than outright jailing journalists.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - amriksohata 7y ago
      That's hardly muzzling, is there evidence of threats? Even Blair and the sun struck a deal in his time
      - intended 7y ago
        And that was despicable. Here the entire media spectrum has hardly complained about the fact that the sitting PM, a man FAMOUS for lambasting his predecessor as a mute, has never had a single non-staged media appearance. IIRC the ONE time Modi did have a question session without being in control, it was a disaster. And of this fact, there is not the slightest self awareness or questioning from the reporters or heads of news channels.
amriksohata 7y ago
Site seems dead. India is home to many minorities, infact the second or third largest Muslim population so it could have not been that without being tolerant to them. Meanwhile Sikhs and hindus are fleeing pakistan. Radesh Singh Tony, the serving president of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa’s Pakistan Minorities’ Alliance, has been reportedly forced to leave his city in Pakistan https://twitter.com/aoepoeRadesh/status/1220238426894585856 https://twitter.com/aoepoeRadesh/status/1220238426894585856 https://twitter.com/aoepoeRadesh/status/1219919588634300416 https://twitter.com/aoepoeRadesh/status/1219919588634300416 He is the first candidate from Pakistan's Sikh community to contest an election for a general seat and this is the pressure they are putting on him
- wtmt 7y ago
  I see this same kind of response quite often when people question the government and its policies and laws. Instead of addressing the questions and concerns — the government, all the ministers and party members, and its supporters — they deflect it and switch to any topic where Pakistan or some “outsider” is questioned or condemned. Until they have the honesty to look people in the eye and address the questions directly, how could anyone expect a democracy to survive?
  - amriksohata 7y ago
    You should read Imran khan's Twitter feed
- puranjay 7y ago
  I dream of a day when India isn't perennially hyphenated to Pakistan. How does it matter to India how Pakistan treats its minorities? How is that a yardstick for our morality? Shouldn't the yardstick be a more successful nation a la Norway?
  - Bang2Bay 7y ago
    because they were part of india. Move one mile into india then chase locals. then move another mile. This has been the tactic for the past 200 years.
coldcode 7y ago
Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance. I have no idea why anyone thinks its a good idea unless you are the person in charge but it seems to attract support.
- trhway 7y ago
  >Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. more generally totalitarism rose as that option with 2 major branches - either political class/party based, i.e. communism, or national/ethnical identity based, ie. fascism >Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance. giving the increased technological opportunities for the totalitarism (and some, who didn't learn history, even argue - need - as totalitarism entice with seemingly easy solutions to a lot of modern issues) combined with knee-jerk "hide back into national village with good old traditional lifestyle" reaction to globalism it would be strange if we don't see the rise of nationally/xenophobically colored totalitaristic style tendencies. > it seems to attract support. populism is extremely natural and foundational to fascism as fascism panders to the perceived core identity of the subject mass of people. >why anyone thinks that is the point. Looking at videos and reading about the Nazi rallies, China Cultural Revolution events, USSR Great Purge and whole Stalin period, ... - it is pretty clear that it isn't the higher, the "thinking", level of the brain that gets to drive, it is that lizard part.
- _4ziu 7y ago
  It preys directly on human psychology by creating myths about how life used to be great and invoking nostalgia and frustration in broken people who just need guidance. No one who likes fascism sees it the way normal people do, because it's designed to trick people and weed its way into collective society and psyche. This is why we must make a continuous effort to stomp it before it spreads and never listen to people who call us silly for saying Modi is a fascist just because he isn't Hitler's level yet.
  - burgerzzz 7y ago
    > broken people who just need guidance What kind of guidance do you suggest?
frsandstone 7y ago
Google cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rKOigGZ6RpUJ:https://countercurrents.org/2020/01/in-india-what-we-are-seeing-is-the-symptoms-of-fascism-noam-chomsky&hl=en&gl=us&strip=0&vwsrc=0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rKOigGZ... (Sorry for the search pop-up, I'm not sure how to get a cached version without it.)
gambiting 7y ago
"which essentially takes decision making over major issues away from the national states to the unelected bureaucracy in Brussels" Well that's just factually wrong
des_t 7y ago
It is actually happening for a while but for the last 5 years, it was done under the disguise of progressive leadership. Now that the economy is down the drain the people are waking up to see the true face of our leaders. Thanks to the uneducated buffoon at the helm who faked his degree, didn't listen to Reserve Bank/Chief Economic Advisors and ruined the economy.
puranjay 7y ago
I really struggle to understand the Indian right wing perspective. There is absolutely no practical way to achieve their goal of a theocratic nation with the country still being intact. As much as they might want to fantasize about it, you can't wish away 200M minorities. Nor can you economically progress if 200M minorities are ghettoized.
- saq7 7y ago
  I agree, though real economic progress doesn't seem like a priority for the government as can be witnessed by the slowdown and silly policies like demonetization.
  - puranjay 7y ago
    I just think most people simply underestimate how many people 200M really is. They also grossly overestimate the number of people on "their" side.
- jagannathtech 7y ago
  "goal of a theocratic nation" That's either dishonest or ignorant comment. Indian right wing is just tired of all so called 'secular' political parties creating unjust laws and schemes to win the minority, read muslim, votebank. the right wing just asks for equality in laws without religious discrimination.
  - mav3rick 7y ago
    Lol CAA + NRC is literally religious discrimination
  - puranjay 7y ago
    I've lived in India all my life and there has never been a single instance in my life where a religious minority has benefited at my expense. I was never denied admission to a college, a job, or a rental apartment because of my religion. The supposedly appeased minority, on the other hand, routinely struggles to get a rental apartment.
  - 7y ago
jagannathtech 7y ago
Truth: A sovereign country with a democratically elected govt with historic mandate, especially a developing country like India with history of innumerable islamic terrorist attacks originating from its neighbours, defending its borders from illegal migrants as per ruling party election manifesto. Woke 'intellectuals': fascism!!
- ignoramous 7y ago
  Innumerable? Can you point me to stats of those claimed innumerable Islamist terrorist attacks? I'm willing to wager a bet that there have been more cow vigilante fatalities in the country than Islamic terrorism. Whilst we are it, I'd encourage you to read https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2006/08/refuse_to_be_terrori.html https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2006/08/refuse_to_b...
  - cmonnow 7y ago
    > I'm willing to wager a bet I'd love to get the odds on this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India
seshagiric 7y ago
The Economist too reported a worldwide drop in Democracy Index and India dropped 10 points. https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index
vsskanth 7y ago
The right wing party in India came to power in 2014 in a perfect storm of a very popular leader and a pretty weak opposition. Opposition was further weakened electorally with demonetization right before elections in the most populous state of India (UP). They were able to successfully capture most institutions (RBI, supreme courts, investigative agencies) in addition to capturing the media through corporate ownership. Social media strategy and a massive disinformation campaign on Whatsapp proved extremely successful in the 2019 elections and the right wing party now has an even bigger majority with the opposition decimated. Barring a turn in public approval (probably from a recession), they will continue to perform well unless opposition steps up their game.
- ignoramous 7y ago
  There's more to democracy than opposition. I must remind you that the opposition was at the center of many a scams when it was in power. They're no good. There aren't very many better alternatives. The citizens taking up to protests is the right way forward. The fascist ideals of the current incumbent is plain to see in these times of mass dissent. That's the point of worry here. Not opposition, not the ruling party, not the right-wing politics, per se; but the unsatiable thirst of a pro-violent party fronting a terrorist organisation to consolidate power with facist undertones.
  - vsskanth 7y ago
    By opposition, I didn't specifically mean Congress. I meant a political alternative that's better than what we have, hopefully citizen driven. Protests are temporary. Ultimately you need to vote for someone in elections to change the system.
- morekozhambu 7y ago
  What about BJP ticking/checking out election manifesto one by one and delivering. While Congress is just whining about everything with their ClownPrince pappu on the helm. People must vote for progress.
  - 7y ago
scarecrowbob 7y ago
Here's a recent anarchist podcast on the subject. I note the political orientation because clearly that impacts the interpretation of the events, but it was an interesting listen, I thought: https://itsgoingdown.org/an-anti-colonial-anarchist-analysis-of-the-rise-of-far-right-hindu-nationalism-in-india/ https://itsgoingdown.org/an-anti-colonial-anarchist-analysis...
- fellellor 7y ago
  Antifa? Ok
des_t 7y ago
I certainly don't support fascism but at least Hitler had some interest in science. Things are worse in India. We spent 0.8% of the GDP on Science and Technology. At the same time, a part of that (taxpayer money) is spent on Homeopathy, Ayurveda, and Cow Urine/Dung Research. Our policy-makers absolutely have no idea what evidence in science means. Here is an entertaining collection of statements by Indian ministers, => “Science is a dwarf in front of astrology.” - Ramesh Pokhriyal Nishank, the minister of human resource development => “Since man is seen on Earth, he has always been a man. Nobody, including our ancestors, in written or oral, said they ever saw an ape turning into a human being.” - Satyapal Singh, the minister of state for human resource => "Vedic theory is greater than the theory of relativity." - Harsh Vardhan, the current Minister of Science and Technology => "Cow urine cures cancer" - current Bharatiya Janata Party member of parliament => "Maths never helped Einstein discover gravity" - Piyush Goel, minister of Railways and Commerce => "Ganesha proves plastic surgery existed in ancient India" - Modi, Prime Minister More gems here: https://caravanmagazine.in/science/false-scientific-claims-modi-first-term https://caravanmagazine.in/science/false-scientific-claims-m...
- reaperducer 7y ago
  While I don't dispute that those things were said, they're meaningless without context. How many people made such statements compared with the number of ministers in India? Are these people still in power? Are they leaders in what they do, or are they on the margins and taken with a grain of salt/ignored by the masses and their peers? Are the sentiments you list commonplace among Indian politicians, or is this like when one Catholic priest says something wacky and the internet goes crazy labeling a billion people?
  - des_t 7y ago
    Yes, without the context it could be misleading that is why there is the hyperlink, so one can understand more. Irrespective of what party is in power now or previously, the policy-makers should not be making these crazy claims. Please understand this is not a race to the bottom, anyone who holds public office should be held accountable. A countless number of people will take their words as the truth. And to answer your question yes many of these people still hold the office and all comments were made when they held the office.
ladyattis 7y ago
I think worldwide all proto-fascism is getting another turn at the wheels of power only because the neoliberal world order post USSR hasn't come up with any legitimate solutions that people feel need addressing. Whether it's wealth disparity, immigration (warranted or otherwise), or healthcare it seems as though we're stuck with old ideas that don't work out so well. Assuming markets and light touching regulations will fix these issues isn't going to be enough for anyone anymore. And I think the scary part is that if global warming isn't addressed sooner then I expect full blown eco-fascism become fashionable with some major parties. When (imo not really if anymore) that happens expect massive purges to happen. It hurts me so much to see this happen but if the neoliberals and social democrats can't offer an alternative them in their inaction others will rise to give options even if those are totally wrong for many reasons (moral, factual, spiritual, etc).
ignoramous 7y ago
I actively read r/india and there hasn't been a single day for the past two months now that horrendous reports of Police rioting, looting, and killing civilians (predominantly Muslims) come up but is never reported by the main-stream media. There have been numerous cases where the ruling political party has mobilised its pro-violence groups with a free-reign to do as they please. Never has a public personality been in more fear of the governing apparatus since the times of the British Raj and so only a few have spoken up. Comedians focusing on social commentary say they frequently get messages of support and caution which they admittedly did not get prior to the right-wing taking charge at the center. The judiciary is in tatters, with judges frequently found to rule in favour of the ruling majority. The judges who allegedly rise up against the tide have been found dead in mysterious circumstances. The Prime Minister doesn't engage in any debate and has been caught lying consistently. The ruling party has been found repeatedly guilty of spreading propaganda and fake news. Some of its leaders question even the founding principles of the country and openly support and revere Gandhi's assasinators and some hold no reservations against Nazism or Fascism. Activists have been unlawfully detained, tortured, and murdered. There were also alleged reports of Police raping 90+ young Muslim boys. The current incumbent has not only managed to sell snake-oil to the Hindu populace but continues to harbor snakes to the detriment of the very Hindus that elected them to power: Most of them are in a state of denial about the grim situation breeding in India and some of them think it is an important lesson to be taught to the unruly Muslims. Perhaps, that'd explain why a convicted pro-Hindu terrorist won elections by a huge margin, and why a Hindu religious fanatic bordering on fascism rules the largest and most populous Indian state. Friends have lost friends, families have divided over oppressive, regressive, populist, uncompromising politics of what's by far the richest ruling party. No one is safe from the propaganda machine, not even the educated, not even the ones in an industry as left-leaning and liberal as ours. It is as if someone has blind-folded them and I don't even know how and when it happened. It is disheartening, to say the least.
- modi15 7y ago
  > No one is safe from the propaganda machine, not even the educated, not even the ones in an industry as left-leaning and liberal as ours How do you know that you are not a victim of the propaganda machine ? How did you keep yourself safe ?
Koremat6666 7y ago
As an Indian I would like to point out that NC has not authority to talk about India. He should rather focus on his home country instead of extending his colonial mindset to India.
- x10s 7y ago
  As a fellow Indian, I think the author has every right to voice their opinion and you have every right to ignore it.
baybal2 7y ago
You are seeing symptoms of fascism not only in India, but pretty much everywhere. It did not sneak upon the world from some fringe underground overnight. No. The world had 2 decades to wake up, and mop up that political faction. I honestly don't know where the world is going now.
goatinaboat 7y ago
Is there anything or anyone that Chomsky doesn’t call “fascist”? Yawn.
0x8BADF00D 7y ago
Strangely enough, anyone who is against globalism/neoliberalism is now being labeled as a fascist. Even on here, if you espouse free market ideas, you are instantly downvoted. Fascism has nothing to do with populism or the free market. It is a system where the government takes control of the economy. Don’t be fooled.
Bang2Bay 7y ago
here it is another article that talks about kashmir without pundits. Depending on which article you follow you would get only one side. This aritcle is nothing but far left pseudo secularists calling nationalists as fascists.
jares777 7y ago
why this is flagged?
naresh_negi_kr 7y ago
> Karthik: Right. Maybe you can give some other examples in the world. But he was celebrated when he was administering the occupation of Kashmir. But the moment he criticized the BJPs occupation of Kashmir, the moment he criticized it as reducing Kashmir to a “vassal state”, he’s been in prison. > NC: In prison? > Karthik: Yes, in prison, without charges. This news article (https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/inx-media-case-cbi-files-charge-sheet-before-delhi-court-against-p-chidambaram-karti-others/articleshow/71646720.cms https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/inx-med...) and several others seem to indicate that the Central Bureau of Investigation has filed a charge-sheet and that Chidambaram is out on bail right now. The initial First Information/Incident Report was filed way back in May 2017.
- fellellor 7y ago
  Chidambaram and his entire family are a bunch of amoral kleptocrats. He laid the roots of the current Indian security state before Modi was elected. He is now being prosecuted for arm twisting and even blackmailing corporates into giving him money, shares etc. If there were any justice in this world, that man would die in a jail cell along with his son. Now your comment is implying that he is some persecuted liberal rights activist. This is either pretty clueless or a malicious attempt to sway opinions of people, who being outsiders, know nothing.
  - intended 7y ago
    Well, the current govt introduced black box, unlimited size, electoral bonds. So pretty much anyone can spend billions to buy a bond, and then have it anonymously sent to their party of choice. The party which has been spending the past several years building a rock solid link to corporate India is the BJP. They're earnings the last year was greater than the other top 3 parties combined, if not top 4. Think it was nearly 400% growth. For Chidambaram and his ilk, it seems his greatest fault was not thinking big enough. I do agree that they are no saints. Its just the scale at which the BJP functions is so many step function increments higher, that its laughable to compare the two.
redpillor 7y ago
typical naxal propaganda. this strategy was written on their secret manifesto. pak's isi is also funding paid stone pelting and protests.
known 7y ago
Muslims didn't kill 65 million people in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties and 85 million people in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Excellent New Yorker piece about this (I submitted it to HN when it came out but it didn't get any traction): https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil-in-narendra-modis-india https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil... Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims.

kbenson 7y ago
With such a large percentage of the population of not just the country in question in the article, but also the entire world, I'm not sure they can be seen to be "the other" to the same degree as the Jews were, given how common they are. In 1933, there were an estimated 15 million Jews worldwide[1], 9 million or so in Europe. In Germany, with the largest Jewish population, they accounted for less than 1% of the populace. In India today, Muslims account for close to 15% of the population. According to wikipedia, they're very close to 25% of the entire world population. There may be some vilification going on, but when the other group is as large as that, I doubt you can expect a similar outcome or as much of a one sided narrative in the places where it's attempted. 1: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jewish-population-of-europe-in-1933-population-data-by-country https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/jewish-pop...
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  Jews weren't a small population of some European countries' population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland > One-fifth of the Polish population perished during World War II; the 3,000,000 Polish Jews murdered in The Holocaust, who constituted 90% of Polish Jewry, made up half of all Poles killed during the war.[15][16] Given that Germany at the time had an official policy of expanding into its neighboring countries, some with very high Jewish populations, your statement is at best misleading.
  - kbenson 7y ago
    > Jews weren't a small population of some European countries' population Yes, but those weren't the countries that had successful info campaigns against that sub-population, to my knowledge. It took Poland's defeat by Germany before Germany could enforce their own policies (developed in a nation with a much lower Jewish population). Indeed, your own source notes that in the pre-war period while there was increases anti-semitism, and some increased violence, there was nothing like what happened in Germany. > Given that Germany at the time had an official policy of expanding into its neighboring countries, some with very high Jewish populations, your statement is at best misleading. I don't think so, but I can see how you might think so. I believe I misinterpreted what the top level comment was trying to express, and as such my comment isn't really addressing that. I think because of this you're also inferring that my comment is meant to convey something it's not. So, to clarify, yes, I believe Fascism is on the rise and targeted at Muslims this time. I don't think it's the same as what happened in Germany for the reasons I noted, which wasn't what was stated so it's a bit of a non-sequitur on my part, but it is where my mind went when I was reading it.
    - bzbarsky 7y ago
      > Yes, but those weren't the countries that had successful info campaigns against that sub-population, to my knowledge. Yes, the Poles were not trying to kill all the Jews in Poland. But "othering" Jews in Poland was _very_ par for the course, as was violence directed at them, discrimination against them, etc.
- Despegar 7y ago
  Some things happening to Muslims in the world today (in addition to India) off the top of my head: -Genocide of Rohingya in Myanmar -Ethnic cleansing of Uyghurs in China Then there's just garden variety xenophobic polices like travel bans from predominately Muslim countries in the US to the electoral gains of various far right parties in Europe because of the refugee crisis. Pretty wide spread there, but clearly fascism is on the rise.
  - kbenson 7y ago
    I didn't want to imply fascism wasn't on the rise, just some differences I saw. That said, as I covered in a cousin comment, I believe I was misinterpreting what you were trying to express to some degree.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    > Then there's just garden variety xenophobic polices like travel bans from predominately Muslim countries in the US Yes, I did not agree when Obama selected those countries.
  - artificial 7y ago
    Communists gonna communist and slaughter just like in the past? How many people died to that ideology in the past century compared to Fascism? Multiples, yet it isn't viewed by the West with similar distain (see Che shirts). Historically the biggest threat to Muslims are other Muslims, they're not a giant uniform block, the sects have been warring with one another for close to 1500 years and aren't slowing down.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Rohingga are split Muslims and Hinduism. So it’s not about a specific religion, but rather an ethnic group. Similarly Jewish is an ethnic group with many Christians and atheists being killed in the holocaust.
  - newfriend 7y ago
    > xenophobic polices like travel bans from predominately Muslim countries Countries included in the travel ban: * Iran * Libya * North Korea * Somalia * Syria * Venezuela * Yemen What do these countries have in common? Hint: it's not Muslims.
- nashashmi 7y ago
  They are other with respect to status as minorities in certain populations. They are also other with respect to minority influence or substandard representation in national and international affairs.
- bzbarsky 7y ago
  > In Germany, with the largest Jewish population Uh... you mean if you ignore Poland, Romania, and the USSR? > they accounted for less than 1% of the populace From the same article you cited, it was 9.5% in Poland, 3.4% in the USSR (which had a larger population than Germany), 4% in Romania, 4.9% in Latvia, 7.6% in Lithuania, 5% in Hungary. The fraction of Jews in Poland, or the other countries I menioned, did nothing to prevent them being seen as "the other" there, if you read some contemporary accounts.
  - kbenson 7y ago
    > From the same article you cited, it was 9.5% in Poland, 3.4% in the USSR (which had a larger population than Germany), 4% in Romania, 4.9% in Latvia, 7.6% in Lithuania, 5% in Hungary. Yes, I was mistakenly going from numbers presented for Western Europe. > The fraction of Jews in Poland, or the other countries I menioned, did nothing to prevent them being seen as "the other" there, if you read some contemporary accounts. As I covered elsewhere, I was (because of my own misinterpretation) approaching this more from a Nazi Germany standpoint, and trying to highlight differences from that. I think there's a reason why Jews were able to be scapegoated to the degree they were in Germany, and why it wasn't as bad elsewhere, and I think a lot of that is to do with relative population sizes. At ~1%, you can force your will on a people. At 15-25%, that's a civil war if you try, and there's enough people of that population that it's very hard to not have exposure to a degree that deflates some of that "the other" rhetoric. It's like if the same were applied to latino and hispanic people in the United States, which account for just over 16% of the population in the 2010 census. Not illegal aliens, but all people of that race. That's a really hard sell, because almost everyone knows someone personally that falls into that category that helps go against that narrative just by existing and having contact. I'm willing to bet it's easier in some areas of the world with similar percentages because the influx of Muslims is more recent and less established, but I'm not immediately convinced it's enough to get to what we saw in Germany. If you want to restrict the discussion to a very vague "the other" that's less extreme, then I'm not really in disagreement. I do believe there are attempts to use Muslims as convenient scapegoats. I'm just not sure to what degree it works in a lot of places, given how many Muslims there are there (and to the degree it works, I think the number of Muslims means there will be a very different response from them if some group attempts to ramp it up).
rayiner 7y ago
> Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims. As someone from a Muslim country, this comparison strikes me as facile and ignorant. It’s not just a group of people being viewed as “the other.” Even Muslim majority countries are facing challenges. In Bangladesh, the government is taking actions that people in western countries would probably liken to “fascism.” E.g. banning Muslim political parties. The problem these countries are grappling with is that they’re not just dealing with a group of people who happen to be different. There is a political ideology that crosses national borders and seeks to supplant existing institutions and governments. There is a lot of foreign money flowing into Bangladesh, to fund madrasas (schools) that teach hard line religion. Egypt and Turkey both fought these forces for decades, struggling to maintain secular, western institutions, and ultimately lost. That is not to say that I don’t find Modi’s actions, or Bannon’s rhetoric, etc., troubling. I do. It’s just that there is a lot more here than you can understand through shallow analogies or the lens of western politics.
- x1ph0z 7y ago
  Yeah the madrasa funding from S.A and others is a real poison pill. As a Bangladeshi, it was really disheartening to go through the countryside and see poverty in villages with oppulent mosques.
- Psyladine 7y ago
  Fascism will always seed as a reactionary impulse against competing traditions. And it is competition, on a culturally genetic level. The choices for all immigrants are assimilation or coexistence, and the latter is a strong lightning rod for the anxieties of neighbors wary of anything different.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  The question is does Sheikh Hasina think that she has free hand from India to be anti democratic as long as she keeps these guys in line? It’s kind of hard to tell these religious types that death penalty for blasphemy is a no go when you’re handing it out to your political opponents.
jammygit 7y ago
Trump likes to target Mexicans too and openly has said he would like to be in Putin’s position with a dynasty. A surprising number of Americans are okay with this. Next election is going to be dramatic. Then there’s China and its minorities being swept into mass concentration camps. Reminds me, I wonder what is happening in Hong Kong right now Edit: update on hk https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-22/hong-kong-retailers-are-struggling-as-anti-china-protests-rage?srnd=businessweek-v2 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-22/hong-kong...
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  > Trump... openly has said he would like to be in Putin’s position with a dynasty. A surprising number of Americans are okay with this. Would you count the Bushes as a dynasty? The Clintons (had Hillary won)? The Adams? A surprising number of Americans do not see being president as disqualifying your close relatives from ever being president. [Edit: Trump has said that he would like a third term. I don't know of any Americans that are actually OK with this. A surprising number are still OK with Trump after he said that, but that's not the same thing. You can support Trump and still expect - even demand - that two terms will be the limit of his power.]
  - happytoexplain 7y ago
    >Trump has said that he would like a third term. I don't know of any Americans that are actually OK with this. Boy, we must not hang out in the same bars.
ComputerGuru 7y ago
Resubmitted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22131786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22131786 I just finished reading it, it took me the better part of an hour but it’s certainly worth the time.
noarchy 7y ago
>Fascism is gaining in many parts of the world today. But the 'other' this time aren't Jews, they're Muslims. This calls to mind the recent debates over Bill 21 in Quebec, that banned religious symbols for many government employees. It was clear that it was motivated by anti-Islamic sentiment, but it was disguised as a move toward "secularism".
- samiru 7y ago
  Are you sure? The motivation for this could be interpreted as pro-Islamic too, in the sense that old religious symbols (in this case Christian) are removed from public places as the proportion of muslims in the population grows. This is happening in Nordic countries and my feeling is that we are paradoxically moving away from secularism at this point.
  - noarchy 7y ago
    >Are you sure? The motivation for this could be interpreted as pro-Islamic too, in the sense that old religious symbols (in this case Christian) are removed from public places as the proportion of muslims in the population grows. Very sure. Originally, the National Assembly was not going to remove the crucifix that had long been hanging in their chamber. Only after some uproar did they backpedal on this. More recently, the Premier of the province made the mistake of being caught suggesting that all French-Canadians are Catholic. This effectively exposes the lie that this was about secularism, rather than a bunch of white Catholics being afraid of a growing minority. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/catholic-quebec-california-fran%C3%A7ois-legault-gavin-newsom-1.5393170 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/catholic-quebec-cali...

cptaj 7y ago

This guy is a joke. He spent decades supporting the Chavist revolution in Venezuela. He has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

weirdstuff 7y ago
After a long and respected career at MIT he’s no joke.
- jackfoxy 7y ago
  He is not a joke in his field. He is highly intelligent. He has carte blanche to publish commentary on any topic he chooses, and some pundits will pick it up and say see, this well respected and smart guys says this, listen to him!
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - spamizbad 7y ago
    He's not a joke in our field either unless you're coding in like FLOW-MATIC or assembly.
- vondur 7y ago
  Did he really support the Chavez regime? That’s something I’d like to know.
  - puranjay 7y ago
    He isn't some foreign affairs expert. He made the decision to support Chavez based on the information he (and we) had access to at that time, much of which painted Chavez favorably. We, of course, came to know later that the house was rotting on the inside. But that's just hindsight
    - im3w1l 7y ago

wtmt 7y ago

> NC: One thing that’s happened is the press has been pretty much muzzled. They are very uncritical. This is a big issue with mass media in India that many don’t realize or want to realize. Between — a) most of the mainstream media houses (except a few) not asking tough questions (but supporting the government for everything), b) the Supreme Court ignoring important cases and not hearing them for years and c) the amount of fake news spread through WhatsApp — the liberal forums in India are filled with stories of how people are losing relationships or finding it difficult to digest the fact that their loved ones are close minded bigots. Twitter has become a cesspool of bots, political party “IT Cells” and people copy pasting the same messages and hashtags, while WhatsApp has become the main source of truth (actually falsehood) for most people.

amriksohata 7y ago
Can you give examples of being muzzled?
- saq7 7y ago
  One example is looking at the coverage The Hindu gave the BJP, RSS, and Modi before he came power and after. Before they were critical of BJP when it warranted, but since they came into power the coverage has been fawning. This sort of comparision can be made across the spectrum of the news media. They are smarter than outright jailing journalists.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - amriksohata 7y ago
    That's hardly muzzling, is there evidence of threats? Even Blair and the sun struck a deal in his time
    - intended 7y ago
      And that was despicable. Here the entire media spectrum has hardly complained about the fact that the sitting PM, a man FAMOUS for lambasting his predecessor as a mute, has never had a single non-staged media appearance. IIRC the ONE time Modi did have a question session without being in control, it was a disaster. And of this fact, there is not the slightest self awareness or questioning from the reporters or heads of news channels.

amriksohata 7y ago

Site seems dead. India is home to many minorities, infact the second or third largest Muslim population so it could have not been that without being tolerant to them. Meanwhile Sikhs and hindus are fleeing pakistan. Radesh Singh Tony, the serving president of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa’s Pakistan Minorities’ Alliance, has been reportedly forced to leave his city in Pakistan https://twitter.com/aoepoeRadesh/status/1220238426894585856 https://twitter.com/aoepoeRadesh/status/1220238426894585856 https://twitter.com/aoepoeRadesh/status/1219919588634300416 https://twitter.com/aoepoeRadesh/status/1219919588634300416 He is the first candidate from Pakistan's Sikh community to contest an election for a general seat and this is the pressure they are putting on him

wtmt 7y ago
I see this same kind of response quite often when people question the government and its policies and laws. Instead of addressing the questions and concerns — the government, all the ministers and party members, and its supporters — they deflect it and switch to any topic where Pakistan or some “outsider” is questioned or condemned. Until they have the honesty to look people in the eye and address the questions directly, how could anyone expect a democracy to survive?
- amriksohata 7y ago
  You should read Imran khan's Twitter feed
puranjay 7y ago
I dream of a day when India isn't perennially hyphenated to Pakistan. How does it matter to India how Pakistan treats its minorities? How is that a yardstick for our morality? Shouldn't the yardstick be a more successful nation a la Norway?
- Bang2Bay 7y ago
  because they were part of india. Move one mile into india then chase locals. then move another mile. This has been the tactic for the past 200 years.

coldcode 7y ago

Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance. I have no idea why anyone thinks its a good idea unless you are the person in charge but it seems to attract support.

trhway 7y ago
>Fascism rose in popularity 100 years ago as a political option. more generally totalitarism rose as that option with 2 major branches - either political class/party based, i.e. communism, or national/ethnical identity based, ie. fascism >Perhaps it is undergoing a renaissance. giving the increased technological opportunities for the totalitarism (and some, who didn't learn history, even argue - need - as totalitarism entice with seemingly easy solutions to a lot of modern issues) combined with knee-jerk "hide back into national village with good old traditional lifestyle" reaction to globalism it would be strange if we don't see the rise of nationally/xenophobically colored totalitaristic style tendencies. > it seems to attract support. populism is extremely natural and foundational to fascism as fascism panders to the perceived core identity of the subject mass of people. >why anyone thinks that is the point. Looking at videos and reading about the Nazi rallies, China Cultural Revolution events, USSR Great Purge and whole Stalin period, ... - it is pretty clear that it isn't the higher, the "thinking", level of the brain that gets to drive, it is that lizard part.
_4ziu 7y ago
It preys directly on human psychology by creating myths about how life used to be great and invoking nostalgia and frustration in broken people who just need guidance. No one who likes fascism sees it the way normal people do, because it's designed to trick people and weed its way into collective society and psyche. This is why we must make a continuous effort to stomp it before it spreads and never listen to people who call us silly for saying Modi is a fascist just because he isn't Hitler's level yet.
- burgerzzz 7y ago
  > broken people who just need guidance What kind of guidance do you suggest?

frsandstone 7y ago

Google cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rKOigGZ6RpUJ:https://countercurrents.org/2020/01/in-india-what-we-are-seeing-is-the-symptoms-of-fascism-noam-chomsky&hl=en&gl=us&strip=0&vwsrc=0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rKOigGZ... (Sorry for the search pop-up, I'm not sure how to get a cached version without it.)

gambiting 7y ago

"which essentially takes decision making over major issues away from the national states to the unelected bureaucracy in Brussels" Well that's just factually wrong

des_t 7y ago

It is actually happening for a while but for the last 5 years, it was done under the disguise of progressive leadership. Now that the economy is down the drain the people are waking up to see the true face of our leaders. Thanks to the uneducated buffoon at the helm who faked his degree, didn't listen to Reserve Bank/Chief Economic Advisors and ruined the economy.

puranjay 7y ago

I really struggle to understand the Indian right wing perspective. There is absolutely no practical way to achieve their goal of a theocratic nation with the country still being intact. As much as they might want to fantasize about it, you can't wish away 200M minorities. Nor can you economically progress if 200M minorities are ghettoized.

saq7 7y ago
I agree, though real economic progress doesn't seem like a priority for the government as can be witnessed by the slowdown and silly policies like demonetization.
- puranjay 7y ago
  I just think most people simply underestimate how many people 200M really is. They also grossly overestimate the number of people on "their" side.
jagannathtech 7y ago
"goal of a theocratic nation" That's either dishonest or ignorant comment. Indian right wing is just tired of all so called 'secular' political parties creating unjust laws and schemes to win the minority, read muslim, votebank. the right wing just asks for equality in laws without religious discrimination.
- mav3rick 7y ago
  Lol CAA + NRC is literally religious discrimination
- puranjay 7y ago
  I've lived in India all my life and there has never been a single instance in my life where a religious minority has benefited at my expense. I was never denied admission to a college, a job, or a rental apartment because of my religion. The supposedly appeased minority, on the other hand, routinely struggles to get a rental apartment.
- 7y ago

jagannathtech 7y ago

Truth: A sovereign country with a democratically elected govt with historic mandate, especially a developing country like India with history of innumerable islamic terrorist attacks originating from its neighbours, defending its borders from illegal migrants as per ruling party election manifesto. Woke 'intellectuals': fascism!!

ignoramous 7y ago
Innumerable? Can you point me to stats of those claimed innumerable Islamist terrorist attacks? I'm willing to wager a bet that there have been more cow vigilante fatalities in the country than Islamic terrorism. Whilst we are it, I'd encourage you to read https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2006/08/refuse_to_be_terrori.html https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2006/08/refuse_to_b...
- cmonnow 7y ago
  > I'm willing to wager a bet I'd love to get the odds on this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_India

seshagiric 7y ago

The Economist too reported a worldwide drop in Democracy Index and India dropped 10 points. https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index

vsskanth 7y ago

The right wing party in India came to power in 2014 in a perfect storm of a very popular leader and a pretty weak opposition. Opposition was further weakened electorally with demonetization right before elections in the most populous state of India (UP). They were able to successfully capture most institutions (RBI, supreme courts, investigative agencies) in addition to capturing the media through corporate ownership. Social media strategy and a massive disinformation campaign on Whatsapp proved extremely successful in the 2019 elections and the right wing party now has an even bigger majority with the opposition decimated. Barring a turn in public approval (probably from a recession), they will continue to perform well unless opposition steps up their game.

ignoramous 7y ago
There's more to democracy than opposition. I must remind you that the opposition was at the center of many a scams when it was in power. They're no good. There aren't very many better alternatives. The citizens taking up to protests is the right way forward. The fascist ideals of the current incumbent is plain to see in these times of mass dissent. That's the point of worry here. Not opposition, not the ruling party, not the right-wing politics, per se; but the unsatiable thirst of a pro-violent party fronting a terrorist organisation to consolidate power with facist undertones.
- vsskanth 7y ago
  By opposition, I didn't specifically mean Congress. I meant a political alternative that's better than what we have, hopefully citizen driven. Protests are temporary. Ultimately you need to vote for someone in elections to change the system.
morekozhambu 7y ago
What about BJP ticking/checking out election manifesto one by one and delivering. While Congress is just whining about everything with their ClownPrince pappu on the helm. People must vote for progress.
- 7y ago

scarecrowbob 7y ago

Here's a recent anarchist podcast on the subject. I note the political orientation because clearly that impacts the interpretation of the events, but it was an interesting listen, I thought: https://itsgoingdown.org/an-anti-colonial-anarchist-analysis-of-the-rise-of-far-right-hindu-nationalism-in-india/ https://itsgoingdown.org/an-anti-colonial-anarchist-analysis...

fellellor 7y ago
Antifa? Ok

des_t 7y ago

I certainly don't support fascism but at least Hitler had some interest in science. Things are worse in India. We spent 0.8% of the GDP on Science and Technology. At the same time, a part of that (taxpayer money) is spent on Homeopathy, Ayurveda, and Cow Urine/Dung Research. Our policy-makers absolutely have no idea what evidence in science means. Here is an entertaining collection of statements by Indian ministers, => “Science is a dwarf in front of astrology.” - Ramesh Pokhriyal Nishank, the minister of human resource development => “Since man is seen on Earth, he has always been a man. Nobody, including our ancestors, in written or oral, said they ever saw an ape turning into a human being.” - Satyapal Singh, the minister of state for human resource => "Vedic theory is greater than the theory of relativity." - Harsh Vardhan, the current Minister of Science and Technology => "Cow urine cures cancer" - current Bharatiya Janata Party member of parliament => "Maths never helped Einstein discover gravity" - Piyush Goel, minister of Railways and Commerce => "Ganesha proves plastic surgery existed in ancient India" - Modi, Prime Minister More gems here: https://caravanmagazine.in/science/false-scientific-claims-modi-first-term https://caravanmagazine.in/science/false-scientific-claims-m...

reaperducer 7y ago
While I don't dispute that those things were said, they're meaningless without context. How many people made such statements compared with the number of ministers in India? Are these people still in power? Are they leaders in what they do, or are they on the margins and taken with a grain of salt/ignored by the masses and their peers? Are the sentiments you list commonplace among Indian politicians, or is this like when one Catholic priest says something wacky and the internet goes crazy labeling a billion people?
- des_t 7y ago
  Yes, without the context it could be misleading that is why there is the hyperlink, so one can understand more. Irrespective of what party is in power now or previously, the policy-makers should not be making these crazy claims. Please understand this is not a race to the bottom, anyone who holds public office should be held accountable. A countless number of people will take their words as the truth. And to answer your question yes many of these people still hold the office and all comments were made when they held the office.

ladyattis 7y ago

I think worldwide all proto-fascism is getting another turn at the wheels of power only because the neoliberal world order post USSR hasn't come up with any legitimate solutions that people feel need addressing. Whether it's wealth disparity, immigration (warranted or otherwise), or healthcare it seems as though we're stuck with old ideas that don't work out so well. Assuming markets and light touching regulations will fix these issues isn't going to be enough for anyone anymore. And I think the scary part is that if global warming isn't addressed sooner then I expect full blown eco-fascism become fashionable with some major parties. When (imo not really if anymore) that happens expect massive purges to happen. It hurts me so much to see this happen but if the neoliberals and social democrats can't offer an alternative them in their inaction others will rise to give options even if those are totally wrong for many reasons (moral, factual, spiritual, etc).

ignoramous 7y ago

I actively read r/india and there hasn't been a single day for the past two months now that horrendous reports of Police rioting, looting, and killing civilians (predominantly Muslims) come up but is never reported by the main-stream media. There have been numerous cases where the ruling political party has mobilised its pro-violence groups with a free-reign to do as they please. Never has a public personality been in more fear of the governing apparatus since the times of the British Raj and so only a few have spoken up. Comedians focusing on social commentary say they frequently get messages of support and caution which they admittedly did not get prior to the right-wing taking charge at the center. The judiciary is in tatters, with judges frequently found to rule in favour of the ruling majority. The judges who allegedly rise up against the tide have been found dead in mysterious circumstances. The Prime Minister doesn't engage in any debate and has been caught lying consistently. The ruling party has been found repeatedly guilty of spreading propaganda and fake news. Some of its leaders question even the founding principles of the country and openly support and revere Gandhi's assasinators and some hold no reservations against Nazism or Fascism. Activists have been unlawfully detained, tortured, and murdered. There were also alleged reports of Police raping 90+ young Muslim boys. The current incumbent has not only managed to sell snake-oil to the Hindu populace but continues to harbor snakes to the detriment of the very Hindus that elected them to power: Most of them are in a state of denial about the grim situation breeding in India and some of them think it is an important lesson to be taught to the unruly Muslims. Perhaps, that'd explain why a convicted pro-Hindu terrorist won elections by a huge margin, and why a Hindu religious fanatic bordering on fascism rules the largest and most populous Indian state. Friends have lost friends, families have divided over oppressive, regressive, populist, uncompromising politics of what's by far the richest ruling party. No one is safe from the propaganda machine, not even the educated, not even the ones in an industry as left-leaning and liberal as ours. It is as if someone has blind-folded them and I don't even know how and when it happened. It is disheartening, to say the least.

modi15 7y ago
> No one is safe from the propaganda machine, not even the educated, not even the ones in an industry as left-leaning and liberal as ours How do you know that you are not a victim of the propaganda machine ? How did you keep yourself safe ?

Koremat6666 7y ago

As an Indian I would like to point out that NC has not authority to talk about India. He should rather focus on his home country instead of extending his colonial mindset to India.

x10s 7y ago
As a fellow Indian, I think the author has every right to voice their opinion and you have every right to ignore it.

baybal2 7y ago

You are seeing symptoms of fascism not only in India, but pretty much everywhere. It did not sneak upon the world from some fringe underground overnight. No. The world had 2 decades to wake up, and mop up that political faction. I honestly don't know where the world is going now.

goatinaboat 7y ago

Is there anything or anyone that Chomsky doesn’t call “fascist”? Yawn.

0x8BADF00D 7y ago

Strangely enough, anyone who is against globalism/neoliberalism is now being labeled as a fascist. Even on here, if you espouse free market ideas, you are instantly downvoted. Fascism has nothing to do with populism or the free market. It is a system where the government takes control of the economy. Don’t be fooled.

Bang2Bay 7y ago

here it is another article that talks about kashmir without pundits. Depending on which article you follow you would get only one side. This aritcle is nothing but far left pseudo secularists calling nationalists as fascists.

jares777 7y ago

why this is flagged?

naresh_negi_kr 7y ago

> Karthik: Right. Maybe you can give some other examples in the world. But he was celebrated when he was administering the occupation of Kashmir. But the moment he criticized the BJPs occupation of Kashmir, the moment he criticized it as reducing Kashmir to a “vassal state”, he’s been in prison. > NC: In prison? > Karthik: Yes, in prison, without charges. This news article (https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/inx-media-case-cbi-files-charge-sheet-before-delhi-court-against-p-chidambaram-karti-others/articleshow/71646720.cms https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/inx-med...) and several others seem to indicate that the Central Bureau of Investigation has filed a charge-sheet and that Chidambaram is out on bail right now. The initial First Information/Incident Report was filed way back in May 2017.

fellellor 7y ago
Chidambaram and his entire family are a bunch of amoral kleptocrats. He laid the roots of the current Indian security state before Modi was elected. He is now being prosecuted for arm twisting and even blackmailing corporates into giving him money, shares etc. If there were any justice in this world, that man would die in a jail cell along with his son. Now your comment is implying that he is some persecuted liberal rights activist. This is either pretty clueless or a malicious attempt to sway opinions of people, who being outsiders, know nothing.
- intended 7y ago
  Well, the current govt introduced black box, unlimited size, electoral bonds. So pretty much anyone can spend billions to buy a bond, and then have it anonymously sent to their party of choice. The party which has been spending the past several years building a rock solid link to corporate India is the BJP. They're earnings the last year was greater than the other top 3 parties combined, if not top 4. Think it was nearly 400% growth. For Chidambaram and his ilk, it seems his greatest fault was not thinking big enough. I do agree that they are no saints. Its just the scale at which the BJP functions is so many step function increments higher, that its laughable to compare the two.

redpillor 7y ago

typical naxal propaganda. this strategy was written on their secret manifesto. pak's isi is also funding paid stone pelting and protests.

known 7y ago

Muslims didn't kill 65 million people in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties and 85 million people in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties