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This seemingly constant ratcheting up of anti-customer behavior by product manufacturers is starting to feel more and more like symptoms of the end of an econom

This seemingly constant ratcheting up of anti-customer behavior by product manufacturers is starting to feel more and more like symptoms of the end of an economic cycle where executives desperate for One More Good Bonus are willing to risk damaging the company's reputation to hit the next quarter's sales target.

draw_down 7y ago
I don’t think it’s the end of anything. This is just normal capitalism.
- pixl97 7y ago
  Late stage capitalism is where the majority of growth comes from anti-fearures instead of consumer desires.
m-p-3 7y ago
This is why an increasing number of consumers go with the more is less when shopping for appliances. I don't need my fridge or washing machine to have all these bells and whistles. I just need it to do its main job, and do it well with a minimum of components that can fail, and make sure it's running reliably.
- blihp 7y ago
  I think you meant 'less is more'?
  - Strang 7y ago
    I think "more is less" is more accurate. These days, my list of antifeatures is more of a consideration than desired features when shopping for an appliance. My TV has a terrible display but doesn't know how to connect to the internet, for example.
    - lostlogin 7y ago
      I’m sure you’re aware, but you can achieve the same by getting a tv that is full of spyware but has a nice screen, then not connecting it to the internet or blocking it at firewall/Pihole or similar.
      - hermitdev 7y ago
        I did this with my 4k "Smart" TV. I've never connected it to the ethernet, nor have I configured the wifi. It acts as a dumb monitor and that's what I want.
    - stjohnswarts 7y ago
      Just don't give the new TV's your network password and you'll be fine.
    - stjohnswarts 7y ago
      Just don't give the new TV's your network password and you'll be fine, and you can enjoy the new screen types, resolution, technology.
  - bisby 7y ago
    I thought "hey that's not right" for a second too. I've never heard "more is less"... but technically they're equivalent. Less is more, more is less. Less is better, more is worse.
    - blihp 7y ago
      When you put it that way, yes I can see that the original phrasing is correct. Like you, I am used to the opposite phrasing.
- kgwxd 7y ago
  Businesses use that principal when buying equipment, then use it to build stuff that violates it.
  - behringer 7y ago
    That's exactly why I tell people to buy commercial. Sure they're 2 or 3 times the price. They'll also last 20+ years and need simple maintenance and repairs.
    - Wistar 7y ago
      My brother and I once toyed with the idea to build a website that explored, compared and offered sources for commercial, or at least, higher-grade alternatives to consumer-level fixtures, valves, switches, HVAC and appliances. A site aimed at people who are doing remodels or building anew. Why not the marine-grade brass quarter-turn valve for the water mains or toilets? Or the much-superior commercial-grade sillcocks? Gas furnaces with electric/gas fan motors that continue to function in a power-outage? In the scheme of a remodel or new-construction adding the high-quality, durable options is a small expense and saves on very expensive repairs down the road where you have to pay $2,000 to replace an item that would only have cost a few dollars more to install one that will almost never need replacing. Alas, we never did anything with the idea.
      - markkanof 7y ago
        This is a fantastic idea. It's kind of the opposite or at least going in a tangential direction from something like Wirecutter. Instead of recommending the solution that will be merely adequate for the majority of people you would recommend the solution that would be the absolute best but may appeal to a smaller audience.
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        I like this idea. You also hit on something that I think too many people don't think of when they're pricing stuff. People tend to look at the sticker price alone, not the total cost of ownership. I've found that often (but certainly not always), the more initially expensive but high-quality stuff will end up being cheaper in the long run.
- jetrink 7y ago
  My newest appliance, a microwave, has a dial to set the time, a row of buttons to select the power level and a door handle. It's the best microwave I've ever owned. It was also the most expensive, but since it is intended for commercial kitchens, I expect it to last at least ten years.
  - XnoiVeX 7y ago
    The is the same argument used by people who buy SpeedQueen washer dryers. But the technology in them is woefully old and not to mention very inefficient in its use of electricity and water.
    - Loughla 7y ago
      The local mom and pop appliance shop stopped stocking SpeedQueen in the last five years and replaced it with Fisher and Paykel. Their baseline washer and dryer is where it's at. They have the simplicity of SpeedQueen in terms of how cheap/easy they are to repair and replace components, but are super high efficiency.
    - bittercynic 7y ago
      They use(d to use) more energy and water, but maybe they get the laundry cleaner or get it done faster. A washer repair tech on reddit said that after 2017 SpeedQueen went the same direction as all the others, but if you get an older one it might be a better machine, depending on the model.
      - secabeen 7y ago
        They brought back the classic model for 2019, it's called the TC5: https://speedqueen.com/products/home-products/top-load-washers/tc5/ https://speedqueen.com/products/home-products/top-load-washe...
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      I can see the efficiency argument, but arguing that the technology is old seems odd to me. What does it matter how old the technology is if it works?
verelo 7y ago
To play the devils advocate here (and to be frank, i think people should be able to use compatible products), it's possible the manufacture is concerned that products they didn't make could cause an issue. I.e. filter is too restrictive and burns out the pump. Then the fridge comes in for warranty repair and there's no way of proving what caused the issue. From the perspective of the manufacture, i kind of get it, but i still think there has to be a better middle-ground than it stops providing a service.
- gambiting 7y ago
  Yes, the middle ground is called designing the pump so it doesn't burn out if the filter doesn't allow the right amount of water through. Having an RFID chip doesn't prevent the genuine filter from becoming clogged.
  - criddell 7y ago
    The RFID chip doesn't prevent that, but the fridge will no longer dispense water after a certain number of gallons passes through the filter.
  - verelo 7y ago
    I don't disagree, but i've been in the room when people make absurd decisions like this and need to be discouraged to make a more rational decision. On that basis, I'm just saying perhaps they're not evil, but they're certainly not trying very hard and potentially not smart either.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  There are standardized dumb filter cartridges. GE already makes them.
- young_blood 7y ago
  Would something like a "using unauthorized filters voids your warranty" agreement suffice? I can understand the manufacturer's desire to avoid costly repairs caused by shoddy aftermarket parts, but I don't understand the idea of rendering the end product totally unusable. To put it another way, should my car stop running entirely if it detects that I'm using a "non-GM-certified" cabin air filter?
walrus01 7y ago
This is the end result of post-modern, late stage capitalism. It will get a whole lot worse before it gets better. What we're seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg. https://external-preview.redd.it/qRggs-k588dZAM2uBK3FH4xOih9LEaq0FCcZdkYm2uw.png?auto=webp&s=437dc136ba2ee6da358527bb368707ca2b375447 https://external-preview.redd.it/qRggs-k588dZAM2uBK3FH4xOih9...
dmix 7y ago
As this builds up there will be a wide open market opportunity for a privacy-conscious appliance manufacturer. Maybe combined with good/minimalist design like Nest - minus the forced cloud stuff. Plus some design work on the internals to make them easy to repair/replace parts. Shenzhen and other places is full of talent capable of fulfilling this niche. All it takes is a brave soul to go out and try it.
- giarc 7y ago
  >privacy-conscious appliance manufacturer.... like Nest Nest is now owned by Google. Nest also had installed microphones in their units without telling consumers prior to being purchased by Google.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Yes... which I mentioned in the very next sentence. Way to take the Nest part completely out of context, which I was referencing only in regards to offering a clean/minimal designed home appliances. I'm convinced privacy-conscious smart products which keep things as local as possible combined with good simple design is applicable to so many niches. Including routers.
    - vearwhershuh 7y ago
      My fear is that the only way to get decent industrial design, like the nest, is to finance it with consumer spying.
      - bluGill 7y ago
        My thermostat from 1990 still works fine. It will have to continue to work fine for a while longer until I can trust more modern ones. If you connect to the internet you have no business controlling my house's heat. I'm not paying $$$ to someone to get my heat back on.
      - dmix 7y ago
        Well that's the current standard model so that's understandable. But I think consumers, especially early adopters and even Apple execs, are becoming conscious of the need and demand for privacy. If I was a VC I'd be looking for someone to invest in which offers both modern digitized equipment without the total privacy/security sacrifice.
rconti 7y ago
Heads of departments who sign off on trash like this should be summarily fired.
- Covzire 7y ago
  They'll probably be promoted if they just play the politician or lobbyist. They could give any reason at all and pretend it's justified by various basic buzz words like "protecting the consumer" and citing recent stories about counterfit products. Basically, inflate the danger to consumers from counterfits and confuse them with bullshit marketing lingo about knowing what's best for your customers. This strategy might work for those Washington SB 4799 hearings, those lobbyists I've seen giving their comments are incredibly slimy and good at evading actual concerns consumers have.
Nextgrid 7y ago
The problem is that infinite growth is impossible - there’s only so many people who need a smartphone, washing machine, etc. Once they all have it then your revenue will only be the average replacement rate as the old devices fail. Businesses should be happy with stable revenue once they reach that point, instead they desperately try to get more, risking the company’s reputation and/or legal issues (not specifically in this case but I’m sure there are companies that did illegal stuff just to get more profit). The current idea of running a business is absolutely unsustainable.
- cameldrv 7y ago
  I think that the bigger issue is that corporations have figured out that people don't know how to multiply and are willing to pay far more money as periodic payments than they are as a one time expense. On this water filter thing, the fridge costs about $1500. Suppose it lasts 10 years, and you replace the $55 water filter every six months. That's $1100 worth of water filters! The water filters almost double the cost of the fridge! Profit-wise, on a $1500 fridge, it's a competitive market. You're looking at multiple brands, so GE probably has a profit of $100 at most on the fridge. On the water filters though, we know that the generic one sells for $19 and the branded one is $55. That suggests that GE probably makes a profit of at least $20 on the filter. Over the life of the fridge, that's $400 in profit -- 80% of the profit of the fridge is in the filters! If third parties are threatening that profit by making knockoffs, of course GE is going to take countermeasures to protect 80% of their profit.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    I don't think it's the bigger issue. Even in the water filter scenario, let's assume everyone has this fridge and is regularly buying filters. They had temporary growth in revenue but now that everyone has fridges + filters it's mostly stable again. Do you think they'll stop there? The unsustainable idea we have of running a business would suggest they should be doing something else to even further increase the profits.
  - LgWoodenBadger 7y ago
    It's not just a "name brand costs more!!!" situation. The name-brand GE filters (for the type I used to buy) eliminate/reduce lead, chlorine, plus "5 trace pharmaceuticals" and 15 other contaminants. The bargain bin filters (HDX, in this scenario) only eliminate/reduce lead, chlorine, "tastes and odors." GE - https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Genuine-MWF-Water-Filter-for-GE-Refrigerators-MWF/204635201 https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Genuine-MWF-Water-Filter-for-... HDX - https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-Water-Filter-for-GE-Refrigerators-2-Pack-HDX2PKDS0/206621305 https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-Water-Filter-for-GE-Refriger...
papito 7y ago
They also do a lot of "financial engineering", like stock buy backs. All these machinations to benefit the very few at the top. It's like the last dash for a land grab. Get it while you can, and it will all end in tears.

draw_down 7y ago

I don’t think it’s the end of anything. This is just normal capitalism.

pixl97 7y ago
Late stage capitalism is where the majority of growth comes from anti-fearures instead of consumer desires.

m-p-3 7y ago

This is why an increasing number of consumers go with the more is less when shopping for appliances. I don't need my fridge or washing machine to have all these bells and whistles. I just need it to do its main job, and do it well with a minimum of components that can fail, and make sure it's running reliably.

blihp 7y ago
I think you meant 'less is more'?
- Strang 7y ago
  I think "more is less" is more accurate. These days, my list of antifeatures is more of a consideration than desired features when shopping for an appliance. My TV has a terrible display but doesn't know how to connect to the internet, for example.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    I’m sure you’re aware, but you can achieve the same by getting a tv that is full of spyware but has a nice screen, then not connecting it to the internet or blocking it at firewall/Pihole or similar.
    - hermitdev 7y ago
      I did this with my 4k "Smart" TV. I've never connected it to the ethernet, nor have I configured the wifi. It acts as a dumb monitor and that's what I want.
  - stjohnswarts 7y ago
    Just don't give the new TV's your network password and you'll be fine.
  - stjohnswarts 7y ago
    Just don't give the new TV's your network password and you'll be fine, and you can enjoy the new screen types, resolution, technology.
- bisby 7y ago
  I thought "hey that's not right" for a second too. I've never heard "more is less"... but technically they're equivalent. Less is more, more is less. Less is better, more is worse.
  - blihp 7y ago
    When you put it that way, yes I can see that the original phrasing is correct. Like you, I am used to the opposite phrasing.
kgwxd 7y ago
Businesses use that principal when buying equipment, then use it to build stuff that violates it.
- behringer 7y ago
  That's exactly why I tell people to buy commercial. Sure they're 2 or 3 times the price. They'll also last 20+ years and need simple maintenance and repairs.
  - Wistar 7y ago
    My brother and I once toyed with the idea to build a website that explored, compared and offered sources for commercial, or at least, higher-grade alternatives to consumer-level fixtures, valves, switches, HVAC and appliances. A site aimed at people who are doing remodels or building anew. Why not the marine-grade brass quarter-turn valve for the water mains or toilets? Or the much-superior commercial-grade sillcocks? Gas furnaces with electric/gas fan motors that continue to function in a power-outage? In the scheme of a remodel or new-construction adding the high-quality, durable options is a small expense and saves on very expensive repairs down the road where you have to pay $2,000 to replace an item that would only have cost a few dollars more to install one that will almost never need replacing. Alas, we never did anything with the idea.
    - markkanof 7y ago
      This is a fantastic idea. It's kind of the opposite or at least going in a tangential direction from something like Wirecutter. Instead of recommending the solution that will be merely adequate for the majority of people you would recommend the solution that would be the absolute best but may appeal to a smaller audience.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      I like this idea. You also hit on something that I think too many people don't think of when they're pricing stuff. People tend to look at the sticker price alone, not the total cost of ownership. I've found that often (but certainly not always), the more initially expensive but high-quality stuff will end up being cheaper in the long run.
jetrink 7y ago
My newest appliance, a microwave, has a dial to set the time, a row of buttons to select the power level and a door handle. It's the best microwave I've ever owned. It was also the most expensive, but since it is intended for commercial kitchens, I expect it to last at least ten years.
- XnoiVeX 7y ago
  The is the same argument used by people who buy SpeedQueen washer dryers. But the technology in them is woefully old and not to mention very inefficient in its use of electricity and water.
  - Loughla 7y ago
    The local mom and pop appliance shop stopped stocking SpeedQueen in the last five years and replaced it with Fisher and Paykel. Their baseline washer and dryer is where it's at. They have the simplicity of SpeedQueen in terms of how cheap/easy they are to repair and replace components, but are super high efficiency.
  - bittercynic 7y ago
    They use(d to use) more energy and water, but maybe they get the laundry cleaner or get it done faster. A washer repair tech on reddit said that after 2017 SpeedQueen went the same direction as all the others, but if you get an older one it might be a better machine, depending on the model.
    - secabeen 7y ago
      They brought back the classic model for 2019, it's called the TC5: https://speedqueen.com/products/home-products/top-load-washers/tc5/ https://speedqueen.com/products/home-products/top-load-washe...
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    I can see the efficiency argument, but arguing that the technology is old seems odd to me. What does it matter how old the technology is if it works?

verelo 7y ago

To play the devils advocate here (and to be frank, i think people should be able to use compatible products), it's possible the manufacture is concerned that products they didn't make could cause an issue. I.e. filter is too restrictive and burns out the pump. Then the fridge comes in for warranty repair and there's no way of proving what caused the issue. From the perspective of the manufacture, i kind of get it, but i still think there has to be a better middle-ground than it stops providing a service.

gambiting 7y ago
Yes, the middle ground is called designing the pump so it doesn't burn out if the filter doesn't allow the right amount of water through. Having an RFID chip doesn't prevent the genuine filter from becoming clogged.
- criddell 7y ago
  The RFID chip doesn't prevent that, but the fridge will no longer dispense water after a certain number of gallons passes through the filter.
- verelo 7y ago
  I don't disagree, but i've been in the room when people make absurd decisions like this and need to be discouraged to make a more rational decision. On that basis, I'm just saying perhaps they're not evil, but they're certainly not trying very hard and potentially not smart either.
kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
There are standardized dumb filter cartridges. GE already makes them.
young_blood 7y ago
Would something like a "using unauthorized filters voids your warranty" agreement suffice? I can understand the manufacturer's desire to avoid costly repairs caused by shoddy aftermarket parts, but I don't understand the idea of rendering the end product totally unusable. To put it another way, should my car stop running entirely if it detects that I'm using a "non-GM-certified" cabin air filter?

walrus01 7y ago

This is the end result of post-modern, late stage capitalism. It will get a whole lot worse before it gets better. What we're seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg. https://external-preview.redd.it/qRggs-k588dZAM2uBK3FH4xOih9LEaq0FCcZdkYm2uw.png?auto=webp&s=437dc136ba2ee6da358527bb368707ca2b375447 https://external-preview.redd.it/qRggs-k588dZAM2uBK3FH4xOih9...

dmix 7y ago

As this builds up there will be a wide open market opportunity for a privacy-conscious appliance manufacturer. Maybe combined with good/minimalist design like Nest - minus the forced cloud stuff. Plus some design work on the internals to make them easy to repair/replace parts. Shenzhen and other places is full of talent capable of fulfilling this niche. All it takes is a brave soul to go out and try it.

giarc 7y ago
>privacy-conscious appliance manufacturer.... like Nest Nest is now owned by Google. Nest also had installed microphones in their units without telling consumers prior to being purchased by Google.
- dmix 7y ago
  Yes... which I mentioned in the very next sentence. Way to take the Nest part completely out of context, which I was referencing only in regards to offering a clean/minimal designed home appliances. I'm convinced privacy-conscious smart products which keep things as local as possible combined with good simple design is applicable to so many niches. Including routers.
  - vearwhershuh 7y ago
    My fear is that the only way to get decent industrial design, like the nest, is to finance it with consumer spying.
    - bluGill 7y ago
      My thermostat from 1990 still works fine. It will have to continue to work fine for a while longer until I can trust more modern ones. If you connect to the internet you have no business controlling my house's heat. I'm not paying $$$ to someone to get my heat back on.
    - dmix 7y ago
      Well that's the current standard model so that's understandable. But I think consumers, especially early adopters and even Apple execs, are becoming conscious of the need and demand for privacy. If I was a VC I'd be looking for someone to invest in which offers both modern digitized equipment without the total privacy/security sacrifice.

rconti 7y ago

Heads of departments who sign off on trash like this should be summarily fired.

Covzire 7y ago
They'll probably be promoted if they just play the politician or lobbyist. They could give any reason at all and pretend it's justified by various basic buzz words like "protecting the consumer" and citing recent stories about counterfit products. Basically, inflate the danger to consumers from counterfits and confuse them with bullshit marketing lingo about knowing what's best for your customers. This strategy might work for those Washington SB 4799 hearings, those lobbyists I've seen giving their comments are incredibly slimy and good at evading actual concerns consumers have.

Nextgrid 7y ago

The problem is that infinite growth is impossible - there’s only so many people who need a smartphone, washing machine, etc. Once they all have it then your revenue will only be the average replacement rate as the old devices fail. Businesses should be happy with stable revenue once they reach that point, instead they desperately try to get more, risking the company’s reputation and/or legal issues (not specifically in this case but I’m sure there are companies that did illegal stuff just to get more profit). The current idea of running a business is absolutely unsustainable.

cameldrv 7y ago
I think that the bigger issue is that corporations have figured out that people don't know how to multiply and are willing to pay far more money as periodic payments than they are as a one time expense. On this water filter thing, the fridge costs about $1500. Suppose it lasts 10 years, and you replace the $55 water filter every six months. That's $1100 worth of water filters! The water filters almost double the cost of the fridge! Profit-wise, on a $1500 fridge, it's a competitive market. You're looking at multiple brands, so GE probably has a profit of $100 at most on the fridge. On the water filters though, we know that the generic one sells for $19 and the branded one is $55. That suggests that GE probably makes a profit of at least $20 on the filter. Over the life of the fridge, that's $400 in profit -- 80% of the profit of the fridge is in the filters! If third parties are threatening that profit by making knockoffs, of course GE is going to take countermeasures to protect 80% of their profit.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  I don't think it's the bigger issue. Even in the water filter scenario, let's assume everyone has this fridge and is regularly buying filters. They had temporary growth in revenue but now that everyone has fridges + filters it's mostly stable again. Do you think they'll stop there? The unsustainable idea we have of running a business would suggest they should be doing something else to even further increase the profits.
- LgWoodenBadger 7y ago
  It's not just a "name brand costs more!!!" situation. The name-brand GE filters (for the type I used to buy) eliminate/reduce lead, chlorine, plus "5 trace pharmaceuticals" and 15 other contaminants. The bargain bin filters (HDX, in this scenario) only eliminate/reduce lead, chlorine, "tastes and odors." GE - https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Genuine-MWF-Water-Filter-for-GE-Refrigerators-MWF/204635201 https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Genuine-MWF-Water-Filter-for-... HDX - https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-Water-Filter-for-GE-Refrigerators-2-Pack-HDX2PKDS0/206621305 https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-Water-Filter-for-GE-Refriger...

papito 7y ago

They also do a lot of "financial engineering", like stock buy backs. All these machinations to benefit the very few at the top. It's like the last dash for a land grab. Get it while you can, and it will all end in tears.