14 ms·

Magic Roundabout (Swindon)

163 points by franze 7y ago

pow_pp_-1_v 7y ago
I wonder how people with a terrible sense of direction (like me) handle this roundabout. Seems like a nightmare.
kaffeemitsahne 7y ago
Imagine coming from mainland europe and having to drive on the other side of the road (thus also taking roundabouts the other way round), and then navigating this baby...
- laumars 7y ago
  The beauty of these kind of junctions is you can drive clockwise or anti-clockwise. Essentially it's not a roundabout but rather one junction comprised of lots of roundabouts. The Colchester equivalent better demonstrates this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Colchester) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Colchester) Personal anecdote: I had to drive around one of these junctions during my driving test
  - twic 7y ago
    The article explains why the Colchester one is particularly cursed: it's built on a native burial ground!
  - twic 7y ago
    In other Colchester roundabout news, the one at North Station is fun - it's a normal roundabout, but with a road cutting right through the middle of it too: https://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2005/QBlog160705A.html https://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2005/QBlog160705A.html There are lights to make sure nobody crashes - effectively switching it between being a roundabout and being a through road - but it's still pretty weird.
    - laumars 7y ago
      I worked in Colchester around the time that was being built. It's much nicer now than what was there before (in my opinion). The only annoying thing about that junction is it can sometimes take a long time to traverse it because of all the lights. The problem with Colchester is that it's plagued with heavy traffic and bad drivers.
    - JdeBP 7y ago
      Nuneaton has one such, at the junction of the A444 and A4254. Nottingham also has one, on the junction of the A52 and B6003.
- Sean1708 7y ago
  I strongly believe that the biggest reason people struggle with the Magic Roundabout is because it's called a roundabout, when it's actually just a collection of 5 roundabouts. If you tackle it one roundabout at a time it's actually not that bad at all, it could be much much better, but it's not bad.
  - VBprogrammer 7y ago
    I prefer magic roundabouts to the strange concoction which I've only ever seen in the Staines / Heathrow area; A roundabout with one road continuing straight through the roundabout. In order to run right you need to be left most lane approaching it. Turning right from the side road, it's ambiguous whether you are supposed to turn right onto the section of the main road going straight through or continue all the way around.
  - gerikson 7y ago
    So it's a recursive roundabout?
  - twic 7y ago
    Exactly, it's just a very small gyratory system.
- euroderf 7y ago
  I worked a few months in Swindon (before mapping apps) and out-of-towners on business visits always got directions that went thru the Magic Roundabout. Not to worry, tho: they got hair-raising stories to tell.
- bloopernova 7y ago
  Quick story time! I moved from the UK to the US in 2001. I then learned to drive in the US (Had no need to in the UK). Sometimes I dream of the UK, my dreaming brain realizes I'm on the "wrong" side of the road. So it tries to switch me over, but that means traveling to the US, so I then have to get on a plane to... drive on the right side of the road. I do it less now that I'm aware of what's going on, but it was very disconcerting to wake up from! Actually driving in the UK (while awake!) is much easier, as you're just kind of following the flow of traffic.
  - tomatocracy 7y ago
    Having the controls and seating position reversed also helps a lot in driving on the other side of the road compared to what you're 'used to' in my experience. In particular I've found that driving on the continent in a UK car is a lot harder than driving on the continent in a local hire car, beyond the lower visibility you get when merging etc.
- toyg 7y ago
  By the time you reach Swindon, you've likely trained yourself well enough that it stopped being a problem. It's much more dramatic near Dover: traffic is channelled from the port straight into a bunch of roundabouts. My dad was metaphorically scarred for life after disembarking a ferry with his Italian campervan in 1986.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
I find the whole "inner ring for people who know what they're doing and outer ring for people who have no business driving in heavy traffic" concept highly attractive but the fact that the safety claims revolve around injuries and makes no mention of overall accidents (if it reduced overall accidents surely they would mention it) makes me suspect this thing is a fender bender (and therefore traffic jam) factory.
- oskarpearson 7y ago
  From tfa: > In 2010, the National Cooperative Highway Research Program concluded that the roundabout reduces injurious crashes by three quarters
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >From tfa: > In 2010, the National Cooperative Highway Research Program concluded that the roundabout reduces injurious crashes by three quarters Since you seem to find it fit to question if I read the article I may as well question whether or not you even read my comment. I specifically mentioned the article's claims about injury reduction (which I don't doubt). How could I possibly question what is omitted from those claims (overall accident reduction) if I didn't read the article to read those claims in the first place?
satori99 7y ago
The traffic engineer who managed to convince authorities that this was the solution to their problems must've been very charismatic.
- laumars 7y ago
  They look scarier than they are in practice. What I hate more is those massive roundabouts with traffic lights on where dual carriageways meet. On those things you still have a mix of cars who don't know where they're going and lanes to be away of, but in addition you have traffic lights and cars moving at much higher speeds than on magic roundabouts.
  - andybak 7y ago
    I've resigned myself to a massive detour to avoid one of those beasts. After a few incidents that were a bit scary and a few where I just went round it three times trying to figure out when to change lanes I just gave up and found a different route.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    Barcelona. It's fine to have a roundabout where several roads meet, each with multiple lanes, and the circle itself to have 6 or more lanes [1] [1] As an example https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3748215,2.1491456,232m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3748215,2.1491456,232m/data=...
    - laumars 7y ago
      That does look a busy junction but I was thinking more like when motorways cross. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Stansted+CM24+8JT/@51.8715988,0.1993421,304m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d88f64abc6132b:0xe9579511ff3bb274!8m2!3d51.905225!4d0.19691 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Stansted+CM24+8JT/@51.8715... This example is by no means the worse in the UK -- far from it -- but it does illustrate how cars can be going round at high speeds even when it's not really safe to. It amazes me there aren't any fatalities on these kinds of junctions because it's a horrible mix of speed, heavy traffic, lighter and heavier vehicles (eg you get plenty of lorries on there too) and clueless drivers. A real bad recipe. But it might just be my lack of faith in other drivers that makes me nervous on those junctions rather than them being inherently unsafe.
dijit 7y ago
I grew up near a city called Birmingham in the UK which has it's share of... disturbing junctions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways,_Birmingham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways,_Birmingham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelly_Hill_Interchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelly_Hill_Interchange They look insane on a map, they must have been hellish to navigate before GPS.
- camjw 7y ago
  Spaghetti junction is still hellish...
  - eps 7y ago
    It looks like a fairly routine Japanese highway junction though.
- arethuza 7y ago
  The only junctions that terrify me are some innocuous looking ones on the A9 in the Highlands (a notoriously dangerous road at the best of times) - they are perfectly OK without much traffic but are a nightmare if it is busy.
- userbinator 7y ago
  If you look at the See Also in the article, you will find 3 other roundabouts of the same name also in the UK, so it seems the country in general has some interesting traffic structures.
- JdeBP 7y ago
  "Spaghetti Junction" was not. Just get in the correct lane, as signposted, and stay in it. It's actually easy to navigate. It may have resembled spaghetti to a headline writer in the 1960s, but it is not in fact a difficult junction.
OliC 7y ago
My driving instructor sketched The Magic on paper and asked me to draw various routes before he let me drive on it. My driving test went over it, so at least I was prepared!
Vaanir 7y ago
I live close to this magnificent piece of engineering, AMA.
- OliC 7y ago
  Ah, a fellow Swindonian!
  - hermitcrab 7y ago
    He's not the only one.
- smcl 7y ago
  It’s not easy to understand why it is structured this way. As a local do you have any idea why it’s composed of five mini roundabouts instead of just a single one? Does it feel like it handles high levels of traffic better?
  - esotericn 7y ago
    You can travel both directions around the roundabout this way, if you need to get to the exit that's to the right of yours, you can do it, whilst a traditional roundabout would require you to go all of the way around, which would improve congestion I think.
  - Vaanir 7y ago
    I'm not sure on the actual design decision reasonings, however you can reach many of the exit junctions with multiple routes. So if everyone drove around it sensibly, there _would_ be fewer cars stuck in traffic.
    - clarry 7y ago
      I'd have to see a study or simulation. I can't take it on faith, because what I see is very many points where cars have to stop and yield. Multiple routes could just imply packing more cars into one ginormous intersection where they block each other trying to get in or out. And where you have multiple routes to one junction, you have merging.
cognaitiv 7y ago
with overhead video... https://youtu.be/6OGvj7GZSIo https://youtu.be/6OGvj7GZSIo
colourgarden 7y ago
My favourite part of the entry is that it lead me to the discovery of the UK Roundabout Appreciation Society. Never change Britain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout_Appreciation_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout_Appreciation_Societ...
- Symbiote 7y ago
  Someone gave me the book "Roundabouts of Great Britain"[1]. I haven't read it for a while, but I think there's an explanation in the book from the printing company -- they wanted to test out their new colour printing press, so sent someone round the industrial estate with a camera and made a calendar. Potential clients were given it as a sample, but they then received requests to purchase them, and eventually made the book. [1] https://books.google.dk/books/about/Roundabouts_of_Great_Britain.html?id=C9n8AAAACAAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y https://books.google.dk/books/about/Roundabouts_of_Great_Bri...
- speedbird 7y ago
  Pah https://pylons.org https://pylons.org
tomohawk 7y ago
When I was visiting the UK, I ended up driving through this intersection a couple of times. It wasn't really a big deal, even for someone not used to roundabouts or driving on the left.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  Right - people tell me they find roundabouts really confusing but I say: imagine a one way street, and you're joining it at a T-junction. If you're in the UK the one-way street is going left. If you're in Europe or America it's going right. That's literally all a roundabout is. You can forget about the fact that it's circular. There's no extra rules I believe.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    The joining roads in America would probably have "STOP" signs, whereas in Europe it will just be "Give Way"/"Yield", which makes the whole thing run a lot faster. If it's a multi-lane roundabout, it's important to use the correct lane. Other drivers will expect someone in the appropriate lanes to stay/exit the roundabout accordingly.
  - andybak 7y ago
    What about the fact it has two lanes?
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      How's is it different to any other road with two lanes? If you're about to turn off then be on the inside lane. If you're not turning off then be on the outside lane.
      - andybak 7y ago
        On a roundabout there's usually not enough time to consider turning off as two separate maneuvers. Instead you follow certain rules and it "just works". i.e. join on the outside lane if you're turning off immediately and join the inside lane otherwise.
chrishannah 7y ago
That's not even the best "Magic Roundabout", the one in my town is much better! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempstead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempst...
- martin-adams 7y ago
  Ahh yes, this roundabout where I managed to enrage a white van driver who then proceeded to tailgate right up the A1
- Symbiote 7y ago
  That one at least has the normal sign, with the small roundabouts marked as black circles. Swindon is a weird exception for using the blue mini-roundabout sign on this type of junction. I think that makes the junction look more confusing than it really is.
- Vaanir 7y ago
  Has yours had "Mad Mike" drift around it? ;) https://www.redbull.com/ie-en/videos/mad-mike-whiddett-drifts-the-magic-roundabout https://www.redbull.com/ie-en/videos/mad-mike-whiddett-drift...
  - chrishannah 7y ago
    There'd probably be a crash, it's never that empty.
- mabbo 7y ago
  I'm Canadian. We had a work trip to the UK. My manager kept saying "I think I can handle driving in there, how bad could it be?". I told him we'd die. As we went through the Hemel Hempstead magic roundabout in the back of a cab, he turned to me and said "Okay... you might have been right."
  - Reason077 7y ago
    Statistically, you are less likely to die compared to driving in Canada. UK roads may be confusing, but they are significantly safer than Canadian roads, as measured by fatalities per billion km driven. (And Canada is already among the safest non-European countries, with significantly fewer fatalities compared to the USA)
BurnGpuBurn 7y ago
Never change, you brilliant British bastards.
SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
I bought a DEC MicroVAX on ebay a few years ago and the seller lived in Swindon. I passed through the Magic Roundabout on the way there and the way back (during rush hour). Having never encountered anything like it before it was... Well, I'd love to tell you a horror story, but to be honest it was all very logical and flowed very well.
mcv 7y ago
A better solution for high traffic flow is the turbo roundabout[0] which is getting increasingly popular in Netherland. Before you enter the roundabout, you select the lane for the direction you want to go. You only cross traffic when entering the roundabout for the first time. After that, you simply follow your lane and it delivery you where you want to go. It looks complicated from above, but it's very simple once you're on it. It can handle a much higher traffic flow than other kinds of roundabouts. The only potential downside is that you need to know where you want to go before you enter the roundabout. There's no possibility to keep going around until you figure out where you want to go. [0] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turborotonde https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turborotonde (In Dutch, but with images. "Rotonde" is Dutch for roundabout.)
- nicktelford 7y ago
  That's neat. How does it handle more than 4 junctions? The Magic Roundabout was devised as a means to efficiently handle the junction of 5 or more roads.
  - mcv 7y ago
    I tried searching for that, but couldn't find a very good example. I don't see why that wouldn't work, though: just split into more lanes before you enter the roundabout. Although it appears that Dutch traffic design tries to avoid intersections with more than 4 directions. Better merge a couple of them before the intersection.
    - Robin_Message 7y ago
      https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7309167,-0.3021986,152m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7309167,-0.3021986,152m/da... I grew up by this roundabout; the south exit joins to a village. Note it has 5 exits, and is slightly tweaked: there are two lanes that go off most of the exits, except the village exit has one lane and actually going off is optional. Every major entrance to the roundabout has four lanes so you get in the lane you want for the exit you want. The minor entrances have fewer lanes so you just sort of race into the lane you need. Oh, and it has traffic lights as well.
fit2rule 7y ago
I've navigated this thing a few times. The first time I just stayed on it for 20 minutes, trying to work it out, and yeah .. basically just confused as hell for a while. Subsequent trips were easy. If you're intimidated, just get on it and stay on it until you feel like you get where it's going. Those crossovers are dodgy AF though, especially with irate lorry drivers who are, most likely, also pretty stressed for having to do the thing ..
dghughes 7y ago
My Canadian province has been on a big roundabout building spree. Nothing fancy just one lane or two lane types. I like them but many people fear them for some reason I suspect because they don't understand them. Some people actually go the wrong way when entering (against traffic). Some people will cross from an outside lane over the inner lane nearly crashing into cars.
- blackearl 7y ago
  If you live or learned to drive somewhere that doesn't have them I can understand being confused or scared by it. I love them but frequently see people stop in the middle of one because they think they need to yield to those entering
  - pashky 7y ago
    This was the default rule in Russia until very recently. Most (but not all) of roundabouts had yield signs on each entrance essentially enforcing “normal” rule, still it’s an utter source of confusion as many larger roundabouts have complex priority signs and lights systems, so it couldn’t go into muscle memory.
- AdamSC1 7y ago
  Brit from Ontario here and have to agree. The problem is roundabouts were never on the Canadian drivers test until a few years ago and no one knows the rules. Plus, the Canadian design of putting the pedestrian crosswalk, right at the roundabout and having cars stop in the roundabout to yield to a waiting pedestrian adds additional risk.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kerkeslager 7y ago
I guess what this shows is two things: 1. Scaring people into slowing down is a viable way to avoid accidents. 2. Perceived scariness of an intersection is not indicative of how dangerous it actually is.
- TheCapn 7y ago
  RE: #2 Absolutely. Within Saskatchewan, east of Regina, we just completed three new bridges for suburban communities to access the main highway. In two of the three bridges were atypical designs using a Diverging Diamond at one point, and dual roundabouts at the other. When announced lots of people were fearful of the new designs and there was unsurprisingly a lot of outcry from ninnies who were afraid of the unknown. There's been a couple instances of people taking improper directions on the bridges but they're typically by elderly drivers who probably shouldn't have been behind the wheel in the first place. I personally have my own qualms with the design of one of the bridges but that's outside this discussion. I like the concept enough that I hope to see them use diverging diamond more and more roundabouts as people get used to the efficient flow.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Another example of this is the downtown area of a small PA town I stopped in recently. They had recently re-paved the entire center street with brick and stone. The sidewalks were wide and there were no curbs, only rubber-covered metal posts marking the boundary between car and pedestrian areas. As a driver, I found this design scary, because it was hard to visually see where I should be driving. But I noticed that the natural result of this was that I drove around 15mph despite signs coming into the town saying 25mph as the speed limit. Another cause of this is that the sound of bricks under your tires gives the impression that you're going faster than you actually are. It was scary, but it put my focus as a driver on not hitting pedestrians, poles, or other cars, rather than slavishly following lines and curbs. Not hitting pedestrians, poles, and other cars is the entire point of the lines and curbs, so it's a more direct way to solve the problem. I think the fear aspect comes from the fact that hitting a pedestrian seemed like a real possibility the entire time I was in the town. But that fear is rational: there is a real possibility of hitting a pedestrian, and a high-foot-traffic area shouldn't be designed to assuage that rational fear. Drivers should be afraid of hitting pedestrians. A placard commemorating the redesign in the town square said that since the redesign in 2017, car/pedestrian accidents dropped from 279 to 43. * I'm citing numbers and locations from memory here so take this all with a grain of salt. I only stopped in the town for lunch on a long drive, so I don't remember all the details. My memory for numbers is usually good, but is not infallible.
zabzonk 7y ago
Hanger Lane Gyratory System - the most frightening roundabout in the UK (or possibly anywhere) - https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/ealings-notorious-hanger-lane-gyratory-14637375 https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/ealings-noto...
- mft_ 7y ago
  Having commuted through it every day for 2.5 years, I’m genuinely not sure what the fuss is about. It’s just a big roundabout. (And while this isn’t a pure positive!) if you were unsure, it was usually so slow moving you had plenty of time to figure out what to do. The only disturbing aspect it brought to my life wasn’t navigation stress, but rather its unpredictable effect on my commute. :)
  - zabzonk 7y ago
    > if you were unsure, it was usually so slow moving you had plenty of time to figure out what to do. I don't drive, so I wasn't unsure, just terrified, as you would be if you being driven round it by my then girlfriend, who combined the driving skills of a rally driver with the mentality of Mr Toad from Wind In The Willows.
- dcminter 7y ago
  It has its fans: https://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A303346 https://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A303346
snowwrestler 7y ago
> however, the roundabout provides a better throughput of traffic than other designs and has an excellent safety record, since traffic moves too slowly to do serious damage in the event of a collision. In 2010, the National Cooperative Highway Research Program concluded that the roundabout reduces injurious crashes by three quarters. One of the hardest things in local democracy is that the best traffic patterns are often also traffic patterns that are unpopular with motorists. Sometimes that is directly linked (e.g. “road calming” where narrowing the road forces drivers to pay closer attention to their surroundings) and sometimes it’s just that the aggregate statistics are counter-intuitive (e.g. “road diets” where trading 2 lanes in each direction for 1 each direction + center turn lane often has no impact on total throughput).
- ken 7y ago
  The problem, as always, is that parties disagree on what "best" means. Governments and safety organizations are pushing for "Vision Zero", i.e., safety at any cost. (My economics professor once pointed out that if you really want zero traffic deaths, just limit all cars to 5 mph everywhere.) For people driving on the road, the current level of risk (roughly 1 death per 100M miles) is acceptable, and arriving quickly is desirable. Once you get to the point where the numbers are really tiny, safety is hard. It's tough to make people follow procedures when they've never seen any problems from violating them. I see this effect happen with software, too.
  - caconym_ 7y ago
    True, but in this case (apparently) there is the added wrinkle that this roundabout has better throughput than other designs, so what’s the downside? I guess it forces people to think harder than they’d normally have to while driving? I definitely find myself taking slightly longer routes that let me avoid stressful situations, e.g. turning left onto a busy road.
  - mjevans 7y ago
    If they really want to reach zero the only answer is a combination of self-driving cars (remove the idiot monkey) and proper pedestrian management to have dedicated crossings, away from the automated intersections.
dboreham 7y ago
A sign of globalization: there are now many roundabouts in Montana. I get the impression that every new road construction project, where there is space, uses roundabouts. Many drivers still don't understand how to use them however.
skrebbel 7y ago
Little detail, I love that they actually call it the Magic Roundabout in eg the traffic signs. I mean, it's a children's TV reference. Super nice, not everything official must be boring and dull.
djaychela 7y ago
I first drove this back in the early 90s when I happened to be near Swindon (for some training), and a friend (who often worked in the area) had told me about it, so I deliberately went to it. Bear in mind this is pre-common-internet use era, so everything was hearsay and so on... He told me it was a 'nightmare', and 'weird' and so on. I was actually pretty underwhelmed when I drove it - it seemed really logical to me, and it was a bit of a non-event - I was expecting some kind of white-khuckle 'driving in Marrakech' sort of experience. I think people's perceptions of it are significantly different from reality, but maybe that's because it makes sense to me, but if it's as safe as they say it is, maybe not...
- vanderZwan 7y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if it is safe partially because people think it's a nightmare to navigate
  - superhuzza 7y ago
    That's pretty much what the Wikipedia article claims, the roundabout has an "excellent safety record, since traffic moves too slowly to do serious damage in the event of a collision"
    - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
      I used to drive over it occasionally. It was always decorated with broken glass from a collision. It's true it has a good safety record if you consider fatalities/injuries. But that's because it's impossible to cross it at speed unless it's completely empty. I suspect its record for minor collision damage is less reassuring. The fundamental problem is situational awareness. On a normal roundabout you only have to look in one direction. On the magic roundabout you have to be aware of traffic from the left, right, and front - and if you're not a regular user, you have to do this while trying to navigate the design.
      - hermitcrab 7y ago
jzwinck 7y ago
I recently cycled some of the south coast of China. Some small towns there had roundabouts which served to slow traffic down but had a different pattern than westerners are used to. They drive on the right, but people who want to turn left would do so immediately, keeping the centre island on their right side. People turning right or going straight would use the roundabout the same as westerners. I also encountered a T junction with three lanes in each direction and traffic lights. When the lanes coming from the bottom had green lights they were one right and two left, and at the same time the rightmost lane coming from the right had a green light to go straight. Three inputs and three outputs, but sure surprised me. Traffic patterns are very local and often undocumented. Just like code.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  Chicago has those as well. I believe you're supposed to go all the way around the central circle when making a left turn, but nobody does. My favorite roundabout ever is a large traditional one with only two entrances/exits. Reminds me of a lot of codebases I've encountered.
jeremiahlee 7y ago
The linked page didn't explain how it worked well, but this Wired video does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OGvj7GZSIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OGvj7GZSIo
mattlondon 7y ago
These are actually pretty easy to drive around: just think of it as a tiny ring road with round-abouts along it. The only difference between this and a "normal" ring road with round-abouts is that the distance between roundabouts is 50m not 5km :)
twodave 7y ago
A valuable thing to remember about roundabouts is that they are generally meant to slow down traffic in areas of high pedestrian activity and are, above all else, a safety mechanism.
- clarry 7y ago
  There are roundabouts in places with no pedestrians at all.
  - twodave 7y ago
    I never implied there weren’t.
beerandt 7y ago
Metrics at work: >however, the roundabout provides a better throughput of traffic than other designs and has an excellent safety record, since traffic moves too slowly to do serious damage in the event of a collision.
- Renevith 7y ago
  Indeed! This is a great example of why it's important to actually measure the things you care about, and not use a proxy or your gut feeling. If you just go by perception, the slower-moving traffic might fool you into thinking the roundabout has less throughput.
wexxy 7y ago
The closest thing to this I've seen in America is a 5 points intersection, which most of just have a sign that says "keep right" or something to that effect. Might as well just say "Good Luck!"
- osullivj 7y ago
  Columbus Circle in NYC, on the corner of the park [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Circle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Circle
- jandrese 7y ago
  Phsaw, how about a 7 point intersection: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8715304,-77.1558859,1187m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8715304,-77.1558859,1187m/da... The signage is surprisingly terrible too, often appearing only after you're more or less committed to your lane because the one you're supposed to be in is bumper to bumper and stopped.
Reason077 7y ago
The Swindon Magic Roundabout is a frequent topic on HN: 2012: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4915586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4915586 2016: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11652868 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11652868 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15211579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15211579
njb311 7y ago
I lived in Swindon for 2 years and while drivers can find different things challenging, I would venture to say that it's a lot more straightforward when you're on it than you might imagine. It separates traffic effectively at peak times according to which roads they enter/leave, and as many have mentioned it slows cars down so you aren't pressured to make snap decisions either if you aren't sure. If all else fails, you can follow the car in front of you and if you picked the correct lane at first entry the chances are you will be led to the correct exit point. Pedestrians don't really feature from a safety perspective because there are light-controlled crossings all the way around the fringe. The problems I saw were when arrogant/impatient people (as opposed to first-timers) saw a gap that was intentionally left because of the way traffic flows from one roundabout to the next, and would speed past two or three cars then push in. But those people cause problems everywhere.
- swarnie_ 7y ago
  I grew up in Swindon and took my driving test there. The only complication usually is drivers who don't know ho to use it / are timid. Also the football ground on the corner doesn't help when 1000s of people all arrive at those lights at the same time it can cause chaos.
scoot 7y ago
For a real nightmare roundabout, the winner has to be Place Charles de Gaulle around the Arc de Triumph in Paris[0]. It is about 8 lanes across, with no lane markings, and with vehicles entering the roundabout from one of 12 junctions having right-of-way. I'm not sure what was happening on the day the Google maps aerial photo was taken, as it unfortunately it doesn't show the chaos that normally ensues. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arc+de+Triomphe/@48.8737669,2.2943922,208m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47e66fec70fb1d8f:0xd9b5676e112e643d!8m2!3d48.8737917!4d2.2950275 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arc+de+Triomphe/@48.873766...
- cmehdy 7y ago
  You get the gist of it if you drop into streetview and move around. [0] Having taken that roundabout in just about every way possible (car, scooter and yes - velib), I can only recommend to anyone on it to have fluid yet determined movement on the roundabout.. even if you don't quite know where you're going or if the next exit is the one you really want to take. A fun exercise. [0] https://imgur.com/gYPWfv2 https://imgur.com/gYPWfv2
- jandrese 7y ago
  I've never looked at the Google Maps image of the Arc de Triumph before so a question immediately comes to mind upon looking at it. How the hell did all of those tourists/pedestrians get there? There doesn't appear to be parking on the inside of the circle, nor any apparent crosswalks at that 12 lane circular nightmare. Is there a tunnel hidden underneath you can go through? There's no apparent exit unless it is inside of the monument. Is there a shuttlebus that just straight up blocks the inner lane when it shows up?
  - roberto 7y ago
    There's a tunnel. I was there with my dad in 1993, and we only discovered the tunnel after we crossed the 8 lanes to get to the monument.
- NoSorryCannot 7y ago
  In my private vernacular, it was specifically visiting the Arc de Triomph that prompted me to coin the term "traffic tornado" and note other, invariably less turbulent ones that I find in life. It is spectacular for being such a point of interest for visitors and to then be so unfriendly to our squishy bodies and a rather unpleasant assault on the senses.
_pmf_ 7y ago
I'd crash so hard ...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
benjamta 7y ago
This roundabout still gives me shudders after learning to drive (well trying to learn to drive) in Swindon in the 90s.
logifail 7y ago
There's one just like this North of Hatton Cross Station (just outside the perimeter road of Heathrow Airport) ... https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.46733/-0.42398 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.46733/-0.42398
oppositelock 7y ago
I build maps for a living. This roundabout complex has been a test case for map building systems for at least the last fifteen years. It's positively brutal in its special cases.
larntz 7y ago
If this was voted the 4th scariest intersection where the first 3? NVM: Found the answer in the wiki. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7140892.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7140892.st...
- capableweb 7y ago
  In usual fashion, Wikipedia links sources where they can. In this case, this is the source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8382506.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west...

163 points by franze 7y ago

I wonder how people with a terrible sense of direction (like me) handle this roundabout. Seems like a nightmare.

Imagine coming from mainland europe and having to drive on the other side of the road (thus also taking roundabouts the other way round), and then navigating this baby...

laumars 7y ago
The beauty of these kind of junctions is you can drive clockwise or anti-clockwise. Essentially it's not a roundabout but rather one junction comprised of lots of roundabouts. The Colchester equivalent better demonstrates this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Colchester) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Colchester) Personal anecdote: I had to drive around one of these junctions during my driving test
- twic 7y ago
  The article explains why the Colchester one is particularly cursed: it's built on a native burial ground!
- twic 7y ago
  In other Colchester roundabout news, the one at North Station is fun - it's a normal roundabout, but with a road cutting right through the middle of it too: https://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2005/QBlog160705A.html https://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2005/QBlog160705A.html There are lights to make sure nobody crashes - effectively switching it between being a roundabout and being a through road - but it's still pretty weird.
  - laumars 7y ago
    I worked in Colchester around the time that was being built. It's much nicer now than what was there before (in my opinion). The only annoying thing about that junction is it can sometimes take a long time to traverse it because of all the lights. The problem with Colchester is that it's plagued with heavy traffic and bad drivers.
  - JdeBP 7y ago
    Nuneaton has one such, at the junction of the A444 and A4254. Nottingham also has one, on the junction of the A52 and B6003.
Sean1708 7y ago
I strongly believe that the biggest reason people struggle with the Magic Roundabout is because it's called a roundabout, when it's actually just a collection of 5 roundabouts. If you tackle it one roundabout at a time it's actually not that bad at all, it could be much much better, but it's not bad.
- VBprogrammer 7y ago
  I prefer magic roundabouts to the strange concoction which I've only ever seen in the Staines / Heathrow area; A roundabout with one road continuing straight through the roundabout. In order to run right you need to be left most lane approaching it. Turning right from the side road, it's ambiguous whether you are supposed to turn right onto the section of the main road going straight through or continue all the way around.
- gerikson 7y ago
  So it's a recursive roundabout?
- twic 7y ago
  Exactly, it's just a very small gyratory system.
euroderf 7y ago
I worked a few months in Swindon (before mapping apps) and out-of-towners on business visits always got directions that went thru the Magic Roundabout. Not to worry, tho: they got hair-raising stories to tell.
bloopernova 7y ago
Quick story time! I moved from the UK to the US in 2001. I then learned to drive in the US (Had no need to in the UK). Sometimes I dream of the UK, my dreaming brain realizes I'm on the "wrong" side of the road. So it tries to switch me over, but that means traveling to the US, so I then have to get on a plane to... drive on the right side of the road. I do it less now that I'm aware of what's going on, but it was very disconcerting to wake up from! Actually driving in the UK (while awake!) is much easier, as you're just kind of following the flow of traffic.
- tomatocracy 7y ago
  Having the controls and seating position reversed also helps a lot in driving on the other side of the road compared to what you're 'used to' in my experience. In particular I've found that driving on the continent in a UK car is a lot harder than driving on the continent in a local hire car, beyond the lower visibility you get when merging etc.
toyg 7y ago
By the time you reach Swindon, you've likely trained yourself well enough that it stopped being a problem. It's much more dramatic near Dover: traffic is channelled from the port straight into a bunch of roundabouts. My dad was metaphorically scarred for life after disembarking a ferry with his Italian campervan in 1986.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

I find the whole "inner ring for people who know what they're doing and outer ring for people who have no business driving in heavy traffic" concept highly attractive but the fact that the safety claims revolve around injuries and makes no mention of overall accidents (if it reduced overall accidents surely they would mention it) makes me suspect this thing is a fender bender (and therefore traffic jam) factory.

oskarpearson 7y ago
From tfa: > In 2010, the National Cooperative Highway Research Program concluded that the roundabout reduces injurious crashes by three quarters
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >From tfa: > In 2010, the National Cooperative Highway Research Program concluded that the roundabout reduces injurious crashes by three quarters Since you seem to find it fit to question if I read the article I may as well question whether or not you even read my comment. I specifically mentioned the article's claims about injury reduction (which I don't doubt). How could I possibly question what is omitted from those claims (overall accident reduction) if I didn't read the article to read those claims in the first place?

satori99 7y ago

The traffic engineer who managed to convince authorities that this was the solution to their problems must've been very charismatic.

laumars 7y ago
They look scarier than they are in practice. What I hate more is those massive roundabouts with traffic lights on where dual carriageways meet. On those things you still have a mix of cars who don't know where they're going and lanes to be away of, but in addition you have traffic lights and cars moving at much higher speeds than on magic roundabouts.
- andybak 7y ago
  I've resigned myself to a massive detour to avoid one of those beasts. After a few incidents that were a bit scary and a few where I just went round it three times trying to figure out when to change lanes I just gave up and found a different route.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  Barcelona. It's fine to have a roundabout where several roads meet, each with multiple lanes, and the circle itself to have 6 or more lanes [1] [1] As an example https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3748215,2.1491456,232m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3748215,2.1491456,232m/data=...
  - laumars 7y ago
    That does look a busy junction but I was thinking more like when motorways cross. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Stansted+CM24+8JT/@51.8715988,0.1993421,304m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d88f64abc6132b:0xe9579511ff3bb274!8m2!3d51.905225!4d0.19691 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Stansted+CM24+8JT/@51.8715... This example is by no means the worse in the UK -- far from it -- but it does illustrate how cars can be going round at high speeds even when it's not really safe to. It amazes me there aren't any fatalities on these kinds of junctions because it's a horrible mix of speed, heavy traffic, lighter and heavier vehicles (eg you get plenty of lorries on there too) and clueless drivers. A real bad recipe. But it might just be my lack of faith in other drivers that makes me nervous on those junctions rather than them being inherently unsafe.

dijit 7y ago

I grew up near a city called Birmingham in the UK which has it's share of... disturbing junctions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways,_Birmingham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways,_Birmingham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelly_Hill_Interchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelly_Hill_Interchange They look insane on a map, they must have been hellish to navigate before GPS.

camjw 7y ago
Spaghetti junction is still hellish...
- eps 7y ago
  It looks like a fairly routine Japanese highway junction though.
arethuza 7y ago
The only junctions that terrify me are some innocuous looking ones on the A9 in the Highlands (a notoriously dangerous road at the best of times) - they are perfectly OK without much traffic but are a nightmare if it is busy.
userbinator 7y ago
If you look at the See Also in the article, you will find 3 other roundabouts of the same name also in the UK, so it seems the country in general has some interesting traffic structures.
JdeBP 7y ago
"Spaghetti Junction" was not. Just get in the correct lane, as signposted, and stay in it. It's actually easy to navigate. It may have resembled spaghetti to a headline writer in the 1960s, but it is not in fact a difficult junction.

OliC 7y ago

My driving instructor sketched The Magic on paper and asked me to draw various routes before he let me drive on it. My driving test went over it, so at least I was prepared!

Vaanir 7y ago

I live close to this magnificent piece of engineering, AMA.

OliC 7y ago
Ah, a fellow Swindonian!
- hermitcrab 7y ago
  He's not the only one.
smcl 7y ago
It’s not easy to understand why it is structured this way. As a local do you have any idea why it’s composed of five mini roundabouts instead of just a single one? Does it feel like it handles high levels of traffic better?
- esotericn 7y ago
  You can travel both directions around the roundabout this way, if you need to get to the exit that's to the right of yours, you can do it, whilst a traditional roundabout would require you to go all of the way around, which would improve congestion I think.
- Vaanir 7y ago
  I'm not sure on the actual design decision reasonings, however you can reach many of the exit junctions with multiple routes. So if everyone drove around it sensibly, there _would_ be fewer cars stuck in traffic.
  - clarry 7y ago
    I'd have to see a study or simulation. I can't take it on faith, because what I see is very many points where cars have to stop and yield. Multiple routes could just imply packing more cars into one ginormous intersection where they block each other trying to get in or out. And where you have multiple routes to one junction, you have merging.

cognaitiv 7y ago

with overhead video... https://youtu.be/6OGvj7GZSIo https://youtu.be/6OGvj7GZSIo

colourgarden 7y ago

My favourite part of the entry is that it lead me to the discovery of the UK Roundabout Appreciation Society. Never change Britain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout_Appreciation_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout_Appreciation_Societ...

Symbiote 7y ago
Someone gave me the book "Roundabouts of Great Britain"[1]. I haven't read it for a while, but I think there's an explanation in the book from the printing company -- they wanted to test out their new colour printing press, so sent someone round the industrial estate with a camera and made a calendar. Potential clients were given it as a sample, but they then received requests to purchase them, and eventually made the book. [1] https://books.google.dk/books/about/Roundabouts_of_Great_Britain.html?id=C9n8AAAACAAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y https://books.google.dk/books/about/Roundabouts_of_Great_Bri...
speedbird 7y ago
Pah https://pylons.org https://pylons.org

tomohawk 7y ago

When I was visiting the UK, I ended up driving through this intersection a couple of times. It wasn't really a big deal, even for someone not used to roundabouts or driving on the left.

chrisseaton 7y ago
Right - people tell me they find roundabouts really confusing but I say: imagine a one way street, and you're joining it at a T-junction. If you're in the UK the one-way street is going left. If you're in Europe or America it's going right. That's literally all a roundabout is. You can forget about the fact that it's circular. There's no extra rules I believe.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  The joining roads in America would probably have "STOP" signs, whereas in Europe it will just be "Give Way"/"Yield", which makes the whole thing run a lot faster. If it's a multi-lane roundabout, it's important to use the correct lane. Other drivers will expect someone in the appropriate lanes to stay/exit the roundabout accordingly.
- andybak 7y ago
  What about the fact it has two lanes?
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    How's is it different to any other road with two lanes? If you're about to turn off then be on the inside lane. If you're not turning off then be on the outside lane.
    - andybak 7y ago
      On a roundabout there's usually not enough time to consider turning off as two separate maneuvers. Instead you follow certain rules and it "just works". i.e. join on the outside lane if you're turning off immediately and join the inside lane otherwise.

chrishannah 7y ago

That's not even the best "Magic Roundabout", the one in my town is much better! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempstead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempst...

martin-adams 7y ago
Ahh yes, this roundabout where I managed to enrage a white van driver who then proceeded to tailgate right up the A1
Symbiote 7y ago
That one at least has the normal sign, with the small roundabouts marked as black circles. Swindon is a weird exception for using the blue mini-roundabout sign on this type of junction. I think that makes the junction look more confusing than it really is.
Vaanir 7y ago
Has yours had "Mad Mike" drift around it? ;) https://www.redbull.com/ie-en/videos/mad-mike-whiddett-drifts-the-magic-roundabout https://www.redbull.com/ie-en/videos/mad-mike-whiddett-drift...
- chrishannah 7y ago
  There'd probably be a crash, it's never that empty.
mabbo 7y ago
I'm Canadian. We had a work trip to the UK. My manager kept saying "I think I can handle driving in there, how bad could it be?". I told him we'd die. As we went through the Hemel Hempstead magic roundabout in the back of a cab, he turned to me and said "Okay... you might have been right."
- Reason077 7y ago
  Statistically, you are less likely to die compared to driving in Canada. UK roads may be confusing, but they are significantly safer than Canadian roads, as measured by fatalities per billion km driven. (And Canada is already among the safest non-European countries, with significantly fewer fatalities compared to the USA)

BurnGpuBurn 7y ago

Never change, you brilliant British bastards.

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago

I bought a DEC MicroVAX on ebay a few years ago and the seller lived in Swindon. I passed through the Magic Roundabout on the way there and the way back (during rush hour). Having never encountered anything like it before it was... Well, I'd love to tell you a horror story, but to be honest it was all very logical and flowed very well.

mcv 7y ago

A better solution for high traffic flow is the turbo roundabout[0] which is getting increasingly popular in Netherland. Before you enter the roundabout, you select the lane for the direction you want to go. You only cross traffic when entering the roundabout for the first time. After that, you simply follow your lane and it delivery you where you want to go. It looks complicated from above, but it's very simple once you're on it. It can handle a much higher traffic flow than other kinds of roundabouts. The only potential downside is that you need to know where you want to go before you enter the roundabout. There's no possibility to keep going around until you figure out where you want to go. [0] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turborotonde https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turborotonde (In Dutch, but with images. "Rotonde" is Dutch for roundabout.)

nicktelford 7y ago
That's neat. How does it handle more than 4 junctions? The Magic Roundabout was devised as a means to efficiently handle the junction of 5 or more roads.
- mcv 7y ago
  I tried searching for that, but couldn't find a very good example. I don't see why that wouldn't work, though: just split into more lanes before you enter the roundabout. Although it appears that Dutch traffic design tries to avoid intersections with more than 4 directions. Better merge a couple of them before the intersection.
  - Robin_Message 7y ago
    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7309167,-0.3021986,152m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7309167,-0.3021986,152m/da... I grew up by this roundabout; the south exit joins to a village. Note it has 5 exits, and is slightly tweaked: there are two lanes that go off most of the exits, except the village exit has one lane and actually going off is optional. Every major entrance to the roundabout has four lanes so you get in the lane you want for the exit you want. The minor entrances have fewer lanes so you just sort of race into the lane you need. Oh, and it has traffic lights as well.

fit2rule 7y ago

I've navigated this thing a few times. The first time I just stayed on it for 20 minutes, trying to work it out, and yeah .. basically just confused as hell for a while. Subsequent trips were easy. If you're intimidated, just get on it and stay on it until you feel like you get where it's going. Those crossovers are dodgy AF though, especially with irate lorry drivers who are, most likely, also pretty stressed for having to do the thing ..

dghughes 7y ago

My Canadian province has been on a big roundabout building spree. Nothing fancy just one lane or two lane types. I like them but many people fear them for some reason I suspect because they don't understand them. Some people actually go the wrong way when entering (against traffic). Some people will cross from an outside lane over the inner lane nearly crashing into cars.

blackearl 7y ago
If you live or learned to drive somewhere that doesn't have them I can understand being confused or scared by it. I love them but frequently see people stop in the middle of one because they think they need to yield to those entering
- pashky 7y ago
  This was the default rule in Russia until very recently. Most (but not all) of roundabouts had yield signs on each entrance essentially enforcing “normal” rule, still it’s an utter source of confusion as many larger roundabouts have complex priority signs and lights systems, so it couldn’t go into muscle memory.
AdamSC1 7y ago
Brit from Ontario here and have to agree. The problem is roundabouts were never on the Canadian drivers test until a few years ago and no one knows the rules. Plus, the Canadian design of putting the pedestrian crosswalk, right at the roundabout and having cars stop in the roundabout to yield to a waiting pedestrian adds additional risk.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kerkeslager 7y ago

I guess what this shows is two things: 1. Scaring people into slowing down is a viable way to avoid accidents. 2. Perceived scariness of an intersection is not indicative of how dangerous it actually is.

TheCapn 7y ago
RE: #2 Absolutely. Within Saskatchewan, east of Regina, we just completed three new bridges for suburban communities to access the main highway. In two of the three bridges were atypical designs using a Diverging Diamond at one point, and dual roundabouts at the other. When announced lots of people were fearful of the new designs and there was unsurprisingly a lot of outcry from ninnies who were afraid of the unknown. There's been a couple instances of people taking improper directions on the bridges but they're typically by elderly drivers who probably shouldn't have been behind the wheel in the first place. I personally have my own qualms with the design of one of the bridges but that's outside this discussion. I like the concept enough that I hope to see them use diverging diamond more and more roundabouts as people get used to the efficient flow.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  Another example of this is the downtown area of a small PA town I stopped in recently. They had recently re-paved the entire center street with brick and stone. The sidewalks were wide and there were no curbs, only rubber-covered metal posts marking the boundary between car and pedestrian areas. As a driver, I found this design scary, because it was hard to visually see where I should be driving. But I noticed that the natural result of this was that I drove around 15mph despite signs coming into the town saying 25mph as the speed limit. Another cause of this is that the sound of bricks under your tires gives the impression that you're going faster than you actually are. It was scary, but it put my focus as a driver on not hitting pedestrians, poles, or other cars, rather than slavishly following lines and curbs. Not hitting pedestrians, poles, and other cars is the entire point of the lines and curbs, so it's a more direct way to solve the problem. I think the fear aspect comes from the fact that hitting a pedestrian seemed like a real possibility the entire time I was in the town. But that fear is rational: there is a real possibility of hitting a pedestrian, and a high-foot-traffic area shouldn't be designed to assuage that rational fear. Drivers should be afraid of hitting pedestrians. A placard commemorating the redesign in the town square said that since the redesign in 2017, car/pedestrian accidents dropped from 279 to 43. * I'm citing numbers and locations from memory here so take this all with a grain of salt. I only stopped in the town for lunch on a long drive, so I don't remember all the details. My memory for numbers is usually good, but is not infallible.

zabzonk 7y ago

Hanger Lane Gyratory System - the most frightening roundabout in the UK (or possibly anywhere) - https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/ealings-notorious-hanger-lane-gyratory-14637375 https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/ealings-noto...

mft_ 7y ago
Having commuted through it every day for 2.5 years, I’m genuinely not sure what the fuss is about. It’s just a big roundabout. (And while this isn’t a pure positive!) if you were unsure, it was usually so slow moving you had plenty of time to figure out what to do. The only disturbing aspect it brought to my life wasn’t navigation stress, but rather its unpredictable effect on my commute. :)
- zabzonk 7y ago
  > if you were unsure, it was usually so slow moving you had plenty of time to figure out what to do. I don't drive, so I wasn't unsure, just terrified, as you would be if you being driven round it by my then girlfriend, who combined the driving skills of a rally driver with the mentality of Mr Toad from Wind In The Willows.
dcminter 7y ago
It has its fans: https://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A303346 https://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A303346

snowwrestler 7y ago

> however, the roundabout provides a better throughput of traffic than other designs and has an excellent safety record, since traffic moves too slowly to do serious damage in the event of a collision. In 2010, the National Cooperative Highway Research Program concluded that the roundabout reduces injurious crashes by three quarters. One of the hardest things in local democracy is that the best traffic patterns are often also traffic patterns that are unpopular with motorists. Sometimes that is directly linked (e.g. “road calming” where narrowing the road forces drivers to pay closer attention to their surroundings) and sometimes it’s just that the aggregate statistics are counter-intuitive (e.g. “road diets” where trading 2 lanes in each direction for 1 each direction + center turn lane often has no impact on total throughput).

ken 7y ago
The problem, as always, is that parties disagree on what "best" means. Governments and safety organizations are pushing for "Vision Zero", i.e., safety at any cost. (My economics professor once pointed out that if you really want zero traffic deaths, just limit all cars to 5 mph everywhere.) For people driving on the road, the current level of risk (roughly 1 death per 100M miles) is acceptable, and arriving quickly is desirable. Once you get to the point where the numbers are really tiny, safety is hard. It's tough to make people follow procedures when they've never seen any problems from violating them. I see this effect happen with software, too.
- caconym_ 7y ago
  True, but in this case (apparently) there is the added wrinkle that this roundabout has better throughput than other designs, so what’s the downside? I guess it forces people to think harder than they’d normally have to while driving? I definitely find myself taking slightly longer routes that let me avoid stressful situations, e.g. turning left onto a busy road.
- mjevans 7y ago
  If they really want to reach zero the only answer is a combination of self-driving cars (remove the idiot monkey) and proper pedestrian management to have dedicated crossings, away from the automated intersections.

dboreham 7y ago

A sign of globalization: there are now many roundabouts in Montana. I get the impression that every new road construction project, where there is space, uses roundabouts. Many drivers still don't understand how to use them however.

skrebbel 7y ago

Little detail, I love that they actually call it the Magic Roundabout in eg the traffic signs. I mean, it's a children's TV reference. Super nice, not everything official must be boring and dull.

djaychela 7y ago

I first drove this back in the early 90s when I happened to be near Swindon (for some training), and a friend (who often worked in the area) had told me about it, so I deliberately went to it. Bear in mind this is pre-common-internet use era, so everything was hearsay and so on... He told me it was a 'nightmare', and 'weird' and so on. I was actually pretty underwhelmed when I drove it - it seemed really logical to me, and it was a bit of a non-event - I was expecting some kind of white-khuckle 'driving in Marrakech' sort of experience. I think people's perceptions of it are significantly different from reality, but maybe that's because it makes sense to me, but if it's as safe as they say it is, maybe not...

vanderZwan 7y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if it is safe partially because people think it's a nightmare to navigate
- superhuzza 7y ago
  That's pretty much what the Wikipedia article claims, the roundabout has an "excellent safety record, since traffic moves too slowly to do serious damage in the event of a collision"
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    I used to drive over it occasionally. It was always decorated with broken glass from a collision. It's true it has a good safety record if you consider fatalities/injuries. But that's because it's impossible to cross it at speed unless it's completely empty. I suspect its record for minor collision damage is less reassuring. The fundamental problem is situational awareness. On a normal roundabout you only have to look in one direction. On the magic roundabout you have to be aware of traffic from the left, right, and front - and if you're not a regular user, you have to do this while trying to navigate the design.
    - hermitcrab 7y ago

jzwinck 7y ago

I recently cycled some of the south coast of China. Some small towns there had roundabouts which served to slow traffic down but had a different pattern than westerners are used to. They drive on the right, but people who want to turn left would do so immediately, keeping the centre island on their right side. People turning right or going straight would use the roundabout the same as westerners. I also encountered a T junction with three lanes in each direction and traffic lights. When the lanes coming from the bottom had green lights they were one right and two left, and at the same time the rightmost lane coming from the right had a green light to go straight. Three inputs and three outputs, but sure surprised me. Traffic patterns are very local and often undocumented. Just like code.

mumblemumble 7y ago
Chicago has those as well. I believe you're supposed to go all the way around the central circle when making a left turn, but nobody does. My favorite roundabout ever is a large traditional one with only two entrances/exits. Reminds me of a lot of codebases I've encountered.

jeremiahlee 7y ago

The linked page didn't explain how it worked well, but this Wired video does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OGvj7GZSIo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OGvj7GZSIo

mattlondon 7y ago

These are actually pretty easy to drive around: just think of it as a tiny ring road with round-abouts along it. The only difference between this and a "normal" ring road with round-abouts is that the distance between roundabouts is 50m not 5km :)

twodave 7y ago

A valuable thing to remember about roundabouts is that they are generally meant to slow down traffic in areas of high pedestrian activity and are, above all else, a safety mechanism.

clarry 7y ago
There are roundabouts in places with no pedestrians at all.
- twodave 7y ago
  I never implied there weren’t.

beerandt 7y ago

Metrics at work: >however, the roundabout provides a better throughput of traffic than other designs and has an excellent safety record, since traffic moves too slowly to do serious damage in the event of a collision.

Renevith 7y ago
Indeed! This is a great example of why it's important to actually measure the things you care about, and not use a proxy or your gut feeling. If you just go by perception, the slower-moving traffic might fool you into thinking the roundabout has less throughput.

wexxy 7y ago

The closest thing to this I've seen in America is a 5 points intersection, which most of just have a sign that says "keep right" or something to that effect. Might as well just say "Good Luck!"

osullivj 7y ago
Columbus Circle in NYC, on the corner of the park [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Circle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Circle
jandrese 7y ago
Phsaw, how about a 7 point intersection: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8715304,-77.1558859,1187m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8715304,-77.1558859,1187m/da... The signage is surprisingly terrible too, often appearing only after you're more or less committed to your lane because the one you're supposed to be in is bumper to bumper and stopped.

Reason077 7y ago

The Swindon Magic Roundabout is a frequent topic on HN: 2012: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4915586 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4915586 2016: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11652868 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11652868 2017: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15211579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15211579

njb311 7y ago

I lived in Swindon for 2 years and while drivers can find different things challenging, I would venture to say that it's a lot more straightforward when you're on it than you might imagine. It separates traffic effectively at peak times according to which roads they enter/leave, and as many have mentioned it slows cars down so you aren't pressured to make snap decisions either if you aren't sure. If all else fails, you can follow the car in front of you and if you picked the correct lane at first entry the chances are you will be led to the correct exit point. Pedestrians don't really feature from a safety perspective because there are light-controlled crossings all the way around the fringe. The problems I saw were when arrogant/impatient people (as opposed to first-timers) saw a gap that was intentionally left because of the way traffic flows from one roundabout to the next, and would speed past two or three cars then push in. But those people cause problems everywhere.

swarnie_ 7y ago
I grew up in Swindon and took my driving test there. The only complication usually is drivers who don't know ho to use it / are timid. Also the football ground on the corner doesn't help when 1000s of people all arrive at those lights at the same time it can cause chaos.

scoot 7y ago

For a real nightmare roundabout, the winner has to be Place Charles de Gaulle around the Arc de Triumph in Paris[0]. It is about 8 lanes across, with no lane markings, and with vehicles entering the roundabout from one of 12 junctions having right-of-way. I'm not sure what was happening on the day the Google maps aerial photo was taken, as it unfortunately it doesn't show the chaos that normally ensues. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arc+de+Triomphe/@48.8737669,2.2943922,208m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47e66fec70fb1d8f:0xd9b5676e112e643d!8m2!3d48.8737917!4d2.2950275 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Arc+de+Triomphe/@48.873766...

cmehdy 7y ago
You get the gist of it if you drop into streetview and move around. [0] Having taken that roundabout in just about every way possible (car, scooter and yes - velib), I can only recommend to anyone on it to have fluid yet determined movement on the roundabout.. even if you don't quite know where you're going or if the next exit is the one you really want to take. A fun exercise. [0] https://imgur.com/gYPWfv2 https://imgur.com/gYPWfv2
jandrese 7y ago
I've never looked at the Google Maps image of the Arc de Triumph before so a question immediately comes to mind upon looking at it. How the hell did all of those tourists/pedestrians get there? There doesn't appear to be parking on the inside of the circle, nor any apparent crosswalks at that 12 lane circular nightmare. Is there a tunnel hidden underneath you can go through? There's no apparent exit unless it is inside of the monument. Is there a shuttlebus that just straight up blocks the inner lane when it shows up?
- roberto 7y ago
  There's a tunnel. I was there with my dad in 1993, and we only discovered the tunnel after we crossed the 8 lanes to get to the monument.
NoSorryCannot 7y ago
In my private vernacular, it was specifically visiting the Arc de Triomph that prompted me to coin the term "traffic tornado" and note other, invariably less turbulent ones that I find in life. It is spectacular for being such a point of interest for visitors and to then be so unfriendly to our squishy bodies and a rather unpleasant assault on the senses.

_pmf_ 7y ago

I'd crash so hard ...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

benjamta 7y ago

This roundabout still gives me shudders after learning to drive (well trying to learn to drive) in Swindon in the 90s.

logifail 7y ago

There's one just like this North of Hatton Cross Station (just outside the perimeter road of Heathrow Airport) ... https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.46733/-0.42398 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.46733/-0.42398

oppositelock 7y ago

I build maps for a living. This roundabout complex has been a test case for map building systems for at least the last fifteen years. It's positively brutal in its special cases.

larntz 7y ago

If this was voted the 4th scariest intersection where the first 3? NVM: Found the answer in the wiki. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7140892.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7140892.st...

capableweb 7y ago
In usual fashion, Wikipedia links sources where they can. In this case, this is the source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8382506.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west...