5 ms·

17 years. My entire adult life. No resolution; no accountability. Deeply shameful.

sneak 7y ago
The amazing part, to me, is that many people are either unaware or this, or (worse yet) vaguely know that the US tortures people when it likes, but still think of the country as a place that respects human rights or the rule of law. I used to think that the concept of doublethink in 1984 was satire. It pains me to realize that it absolutely is not.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- state_less 7y ago
  > The two "doctors" assured the military men who hired them and the lawyers and politicians who signed it off that their techniques were entirely "painless". Let me take you through the one described as "a technique in which the detainees' wrists were tied together above their heads and they were unable to lean against a wall or lie down." I was put down a hole, suspended by my wrists from two chains that were locked to a horizontal metal bar at a height where my feet could barely touch the ground. I was left in total darkness for days—perhaps a week. Without food. Standing on tiptoe in my own excrement. I have to admit, it's hard to believe we'd allow this sort of thing these days and yet there is also recent history supporting this as a pattern of behavior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone...
  - sneak 7y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBLNohqquRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBLNohqquRk How can anyone watch this and realize that precisely nobody went to jail or suffered any kind of process of justice as a result and still think that the country has any respect whatsoever for its written policies or procedures? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spying-senate-staffers https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spy... I, for one, am firmly convinced that there are two different sets of laws in this country. One for us, and one for them.
  - 2rsf 7y ago
    > I have to admit, it's hard to believe we'd allow this sort of thing these day Playing the devil's advocate for a moment- suppose you had some information about 9/11 one week before, would you torture your informant to get the precise date and location ? one person's rights in exchange for thousands. And still under the devil's advocate cover- why are tortures different than killing terrorist (or "terrorists") in remote countries without trial while many times causing suffering collateral damage ?
    - jacobolus 7y ago
      This “ticking time bomb” scenario where torture was effective at stopping some terror attack has as far as I can tell never happened. When I was in college Alan Dershowitz participated in a public debate about torture in front of students where (aside from a great deal of incoherent blather and blatant disrespect his opponent, a woman whose husband had been tortured and murdered) he pulled some example of torture stopping a terror plot in (I believe?) Southeast Asia. But when I looked up the details after the debate, it turned out that in fact torture hadn’t accomplished anything and the plot was stopped through unrelated regular investigative police work. The whole argument is disingenuous, and many of the torture apologists behind it are lazy and academically dishonest. > why are tortures different than killing terrorist (or "terrorists") in remote countries without trial Personally I would argue that assassination is an unjust, illegal, and ineffective tactic for fighting against criminals, even violent criminals. But still, assassination and torture are pretty clearly different. One is killing someone who presumably cannot be easily captured by ordinary law enforcement action. The other is inflicting horrific pain and suffering on a defenseless person in custody out of spite, for no practical benefit.
    - ianleeclark 7y ago
      > Playing the devil's advocate for a moment- suppose you had some information about 9/11 one week before, would you torture your informant to get the precise date and location ? one person's rights in exchange for thousands. This is a pretty classic example of a utility monster. It's part of the reason that many have issues with utilitarianism. Regardless, we're talking about Abu Ghraib. This was a rape factory that pushed several thousand through it's doors, so it's important to keep that in view, rather than drifting off into fantastical hypotheticals that presupposes our defensive reaction instead of our continual aggression.
  - blattimwind 7y ago
    It amazes me anyone could sell any of these procedures as "painless" and WH lawyers somehow managed to concoct an opinion that even if this was a painful process that it was not torture because the goal of the interrogators was not to inflict pain but rather to gain information.
  - javajosh 7y ago
    I'd like to a) see an interview with both doctors about this, and b) see a legal analysis of why the USG got them to sign off on anything, and what they gained from it. Then, if those opinions were invalid or coerced for any reason, you can nail them for breaking the law AND attempting to cover it up. I would also, assuming its as bad as it sounds, at the very least, I'd go hard after those doctors and get their licenses, at least. I bet it would trigger already existing law if you could elminate this evil little maneuver. Now, a motivated administration could still get someone to do it, I'm sure, unethical doctors at the end of their career, or doctors you pay off or threaten to do it. But that increases the difficulty considerably. Oh, and I would also like to see an interview with W and Obama (and Trump!) about this.
- elfexec 7y ago
  If you like 1984 and doublethink, then you'll enjoy this. Department of War was rebranded as Department of Defense three months after 1984 was published. Life imitating art? And ever since, the Department of Defense has engaged in offensive wars all over the world nonstop. Though I suppose the best defense is a good offense...
  - lovemenot 7y ago
    To be fair, 1984 was published in 1948. Just about the right time for Department of War to be renamed for appropriate reasons.
  - bayesian_horse 7y ago
    It's the right name though, in my opinion.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  To be fair, there has not been evidence of systematical torture since that program was abandoned. That's also sometimes forgotten. And by that I mean that yes, there were individual incidents of torture, but they weren't sanctioned and often prosecuted. There might be as of yet unknown incidents or programs, but the space and scope for such would be rather limited, given all that happened since.
  - sneak 7y ago
    https://www.amnestyusa.org/the-shocking-abuse-of-solitary-confinement-in-u-s-prisons/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/the-shocking-abuse-of-solitary-co... The willingness to torture prisoners arbitrarily, and the unwillingness to police or prosecute or punish the widespread application of torture in prisons is well-distributed and longstanding tradition within the United States. Apparently, it's also fairly common to torture schoolchildren: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/11/20/illinois-officials-vow-stop-putting-students-solitary-confinement-after-damning-report/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/11/20/illinois... Additionally, it's sort of hard to say that the incidences in question by the military weren't sanctioned when the CIA actually hacked into Congress to further the coverup.

The amazing part, to me, is that many people are either unaware or this, or (worse yet) vaguely know that the US tortures people when it likes, but still think of the country as a place that respects human rights or the rule of law. I used to think that the concept of doublethink in 1984 was satire. It pains me to realize that it absolutely is not.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
state_less 7y ago
> The two "doctors" assured the military men who hired them and the lawyers and politicians who signed it off that their techniques were entirely "painless". Let me take you through the one described as "a technique in which the detainees' wrists were tied together above their heads and they were unable to lean against a wall or lie down." I was put down a hole, suspended by my wrists from two chains that were locked to a horizontal metal bar at a height where my feet could barely touch the ground. I was left in total darkness for days—perhaps a week. Without food. Standing on tiptoe in my own excrement. I have to admit, it's hard to believe we'd allow this sort of thing these days and yet there is also recent history supporting this as a pattern of behavior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone...
- sneak 7y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBLNohqquRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBLNohqquRk How can anyone watch this and realize that precisely nobody went to jail or suffered any kind of process of justice as a result and still think that the country has any respect whatsoever for its written policies or procedures? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spying-senate-staffers https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spy... I, for one, am firmly convinced that there are two different sets of laws in this country. One for us, and one for them.
- 2rsf 7y ago
  > I have to admit, it's hard to believe we'd allow this sort of thing these day Playing the devil's advocate for a moment- suppose you had some information about 9/11 one week before, would you torture your informant to get the precise date and location ? one person's rights in exchange for thousands. And still under the devil's advocate cover- why are tortures different than killing terrorist (or "terrorists") in remote countries without trial while many times causing suffering collateral damage ?
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    This “ticking time bomb” scenario where torture was effective at stopping some terror attack has as far as I can tell never happened. When I was in college Alan Dershowitz participated in a public debate about torture in front of students where (aside from a great deal of incoherent blather and blatant disrespect his opponent, a woman whose husband had been tortured and murdered) he pulled some example of torture stopping a terror plot in (I believe?) Southeast Asia. But when I looked up the details after the debate, it turned out that in fact torture hadn’t accomplished anything and the plot was stopped through unrelated regular investigative police work. The whole argument is disingenuous, and many of the torture apologists behind it are lazy and academically dishonest. > why are tortures different than killing terrorist (or "terrorists") in remote countries without trial Personally I would argue that assassination is an unjust, illegal, and ineffective tactic for fighting against criminals, even violent criminals. But still, assassination and torture are pretty clearly different. One is killing someone who presumably cannot be easily captured by ordinary law enforcement action. The other is inflicting horrific pain and suffering on a defenseless person in custody out of spite, for no practical benefit.
  - ianleeclark 7y ago
    > Playing the devil's advocate for a moment- suppose you had some information about 9/11 one week before, would you torture your informant to get the precise date and location ? one person's rights in exchange for thousands. This is a pretty classic example of a utility monster. It's part of the reason that many have issues with utilitarianism. Regardless, we're talking about Abu Ghraib. This was a rape factory that pushed several thousand through it's doors, so it's important to keep that in view, rather than drifting off into fantastical hypotheticals that presupposes our defensive reaction instead of our continual aggression.
- blattimwind 7y ago
  It amazes me anyone could sell any of these procedures as "painless" and WH lawyers somehow managed to concoct an opinion that even if this was a painful process that it was not torture because the goal of the interrogators was not to inflict pain but rather to gain information.
- javajosh 7y ago
  I'd like to a) see an interview with both doctors about this, and b) see a legal analysis of why the USG got them to sign off on anything, and what they gained from it. Then, if those opinions were invalid or coerced for any reason, you can nail them for breaking the law AND attempting to cover it up. I would also, assuming its as bad as it sounds, at the very least, I'd go hard after those doctors and get their licenses, at least. I bet it would trigger already existing law if you could elminate this evil little maneuver. Now, a motivated administration could still get someone to do it, I'm sure, unethical doctors at the end of their career, or doctors you pay off or threaten to do it. But that increases the difficulty considerably. Oh, and I would also like to see an interview with W and Obama (and Trump!) about this.
elfexec 7y ago
If you like 1984 and doublethink, then you'll enjoy this. Department of War was rebranded as Department of Defense three months after 1984 was published. Life imitating art? And ever since, the Department of Defense has engaged in offensive wars all over the world nonstop. Though I suppose the best defense is a good offense...
- lovemenot 7y ago
  To be fair, 1984 was published in 1948. Just about the right time for Department of War to be renamed for appropriate reasons.
- bayesian_horse 7y ago
  It's the right name though, in my opinion.
bayesian_horse 7y ago
To be fair, there has not been evidence of systematical torture since that program was abandoned. That's also sometimes forgotten. And by that I mean that yes, there were individual incidents of torture, but they weren't sanctioned and often prosecuted. There might be as of yet unknown incidents or programs, but the space and scope for such would be rather limited, given all that happened since.
- sneak 7y ago
  https://www.amnestyusa.org/the-shocking-abuse-of-solitary-confinement-in-u-s-prisons/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/the-shocking-abuse-of-solitary-co... The willingness to torture prisoners arbitrarily, and the unwillingness to police or prosecute or punish the widespread application of torture in prisons is well-distributed and longstanding tradition within the United States. Apparently, it's also fairly common to torture schoolchildren: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/11/20/illinois-officials-vow-stop-putting-students-solitary-confinement-after-damning-report/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/11/20/illinois... Additionally, it's sort of hard to say that the incidences in question by the military weren't sanctioned when the CIA actually hacked into Congress to further the coverup.