10 ms·

I took one of those courses; it wasn't intellectually stimulating and it felt like a condescending, corporate-mandated seminar. Even the professor was just goin

by _bxg1 7y ago

I took one of those courses; it wasn't intellectually stimulating and it felt like a condescending, corporate-mandated seminar. Even the professor was just going through the motions. But it doesn't have to be that way, that's just how it tends to play out. What we need are not "ethics in tech" courses, but for people in tech to get more exposure to general humanities education. Require everyone getting a degree at your university - computer science majors included - to read and discuss classic literature, history, and philosophy. Exercise the parts of their brain that deal with questions whose answers can't be reduced to code. Ethics cannot be covered by a pamphlet of tech-specific rules; to act ethically, a person needs perspective on human nature and on what it means to be a member of society.

wolfgke 7y ago
> Require everyone - computer science majors included - to read and discuss classic literature, history, and philosophy. These books/things taught me nothing (nil) about ethics - they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago. On the other hand: good hard science-fiction literature sometimes is able to teach you one or two relevant things - even though I admit that ratio "text-to-read" to "important lessons learned" is rather low (i.e. you have to read immense amounts to get few important lessons). Because I love science-fiction, this is rather unimportant to me, but for people who follow my advice and now start to read science-fiction literature to learn some ethics lessons will be deeply disappointed if they have no deep love for the science-fiction genre.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  I won't say science-fiction never has substantive ethical content, but one definitely needs more than that. > they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago It's clear you're missing the point: ethics that are specific to a given technology, or even a specific social structure, are of limited value. If a person's moral system is going to be rich enough to apply itself to new technologies and situations that nobody has ever faced before, one needs a broad perspective on the human condition. A deeper understanding of right and wrong and the in-between. Civilization was very different centuries ago, but people were not.
  - polishdude20 7y ago
    I think a beneficial course would be one where the students learn about the history of how controlling certain governments and malevolent agencies can be. History can tell us a lot about how bad it can get and the implications. People nowadays are forgetting the things that happened back in Russia under communist rule for example. We like to believe our information is in good hands and won't be used for nefarious purposes. We have forgotten how evil humans can be under certain circumstances.
  - wolfgke 7y ago
    > Civilization was very different centuries ago, but people were not. Very different civilizations imply very different ethical questions that are relevant. I just say that the global (network) interconnectness brought a huge plethora of new ethical questions that were never relevant in the past - exactly because they were science-fiction at that time. That is why I mentioned science-fiction literature as far more relevant further above in the thread.
- groby_b 7y ago
  If you think they are about questions relevant centuries ago, I'd really like to know what you think the questions are. Many of the "classics" of classic literature (no pun intended) talk about questions that are perpetually relevant, and the same goes for lots of things that fall under history and philosophy. I don't debate there's a lot of garbage out there that falls under "it's old, so we'll teach it", but I can assure you that the vast majority does speak about relevant topics. And like in SF, the ones that endure are the ones that speak most clearly. In general, all stories teach about empathy - how can I put myself in somebody else's shoes. If you found a better way to learn that via SF, more power to you. The classics are still relevant because they provide the foundation upon all this is built, and so they become important once you discuss things in a wider circle. (E.g. I might like fantasy, and not have a solid enough grounding in SF. We need to find some common ground. Via acclamation, the world has picked literature/history/philosophy as that common ground) And so I'd encourage you to maybe go out and give some of it a try :) If you care for recommendations: For philosophy, I recommend "What does it all mean" by Thomas Nagel. I don't have a great recommendation for History - I like "By Steppe, Desert and Ocean", but it's incomplete & somewhat eurocentric. True world history in a single book is probably asking a bit much. Same goes for literature, but even more so - it's really a matter of taste. I adore "The Master and Margarita", but beware, it's weird :) Grapes of Wrath is a moving and v. relevant one. The Illiad is spectacular, but I only know German translations, never read it in English.
  - techopoly 7y ago
    I like this comment. What you're describing is essentially the Great Conversation, and there aren't enough participants. But, the door is always open!
- jkingsbery 7y ago
  > These books/things taught me nothing (nil) about ethics - they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago. / On the other hand: good hard science-fiction literature... When I read these books, I learn nothing (nil) about ethics, they are about questions that are relevant centuries from now. I kid. More seriously though... the debate about whether a democracy should invade a country in order to ensure it's security while it's main enemy is a completely different country isn't a 21st century concern: the Athenians debated the same thing before invading Syracuse. What should the role of rich people be in a republic with vast wealth inequality and a rapidly urbanizing population during a time of increasing demagoguery and populism isn't just a concern in the 21st century US election for the office of President, it was also a concern in the 2nd century BC Roman election for the office of Tribune. We could come up with a new analysis about the trade-offs between a government of elected officials coming from the people and one consisting of specialized elites trained for the task, but Plato summarized the main arguments already in the Republic. The list goes on. I would sum up saying there's nothing new under the sun, but someone already beat me to it[1]. [1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1%3A9&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1%...
- LilBytes 7y ago
  Get everyone to read Daemon!
- tarsinge 7y ago
  > “Or is it your reputation that's bothering you? But look at how soon we're all forgotten. The abyss of endless time that swallows it all. The emptiness of those applauding hands. The people who praise us; how capricious they are, how arbitrary. And the tiny region it takes place. The whole earth a point in space - and most of it uninhabited.” > “Soon you’ll be ashes, or bones. A mere name, at most—and even that is just a sound, an echo. The things we want in life are empty, stale, and trivial. Dogs snarling at each other. Quarreling children—laughing and then bursting into tears a moment later. Trust, shame, justice, truth—“gone from the earth and only found in heaven.” Why are you still here? Sensory objects are shifting and unstable; our senses dim and easily deceived; the soul itself a decoction of the blood; fame in a world like this is worthless. —And so? Wait for it patiently—annihilation or metamorphosis. —And until that time comes—what? Honor and revere the gods, treat human beings as they deserve, be tolerant with others and strict with yourself. Remember, nothing belongs to you but your flesh and blood—and nothing else is under your control.” ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
- tripzilch 7y ago
  Ethics is a field in philosophy. If you study that, you will learn about ethics. Or your professor really sucks, but it's not even hard to make a course in Ethics at least somewhat fun. The trolley problem writes itself..
SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
Which universities allow computer science majors to skip classic literature, history, and philosophy? Every engineering program I'm familiar with requires at least 6 humanities courses.
- singron 7y ago
  Unfortunately, broadly required courses are often jokes designed to be passed by any warm body, filled with apathetic students, and often taught by someone who knows this. With AP transfer, I only took 5 courses (1 psych, 2 phil, 2 econ). I found the psych to be a waste and the econ was not relevant to this humanity context. I actually found the philosophy to be really useful in this context, but discussions were sometimes a bore since just about nobody did the readings before class.
compuguy 7y ago
Most colleges in the US have a general education requirement for humanities classes. That includes classes involving classic literature.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  Still, I wonder if either the quantity or the quality is too low. My university was particularly known for its well-rounded, humanities-friendly culture. But in my own experience, I only had one humanities class that I really felt like I learned things in. It was titled "Great Texts" - we read excerpts from The Iliad, Augustine's Confessions, Nicomachean Ethics, Plato's Republic, and others along the same lines - and most of the course was spent having engaging, open discussions about the readings. It had a major impact on my inner life and I wish I'd had time to take some other classes like that. My other "humanities courses" included: - "Political Science" - rote memorization of how the United States' government works with very little analysis or discussion - Psychology/Sociology, which were somewhat interesting but pretty straightforwardly scientific/memorization-heavy
- jyrkesh 7y ago
  In my experience, many of those requirements are waived or reduced in engineering and CS programs because of their significantly higher eng/CS course load. Not to mention those programs typically have a higher rate of students graduating in >4 years. So yeah, you're technically right, but it's disappointing to see universities actively moving in the other direction. Of course, it still seems like university hires are woefully unprepared on day one, though I think many of us agree that 6-12 months of "real world" training for new hires is unavoidable. My own anecdotal experience as a BA working in $BigTechCorp is that basic skills usually studied in the humanities are woefully lacking in many of my peers: writing/grammar, the ability to understand others' perspectives, and most of all ethics. The number of times I've had to say something like "uhhh, no, you can't do that, it's illegal" or explained to someone why maybe adding more telemetry to a client-side explanation may be controversial.
  - wildrhythms 7y ago
    Anecdote: I went to a small private college in the Midwest (around 1,000 students or so) and CS majors like myself were indeed required to take humanities courses. For me this included a philosophy course, religion course, a course on female literature, a course on fictional literature, and three theatre arts courses. I attended for 2 years (transfer from a community college) and had an otherwise regular sized course load. I currently work at a $BigTechCorp.
nitwit005 7y ago
I went to a university that required quite a bit of liberal arts education with the CS degree. I can't think of anything with a substantial relation to engineering ethics covered in those courses. I don't mean that to be demeaning, but just the reality of what gets covered. I did take Intro to Philosophy (Can't say I learned anything new in it), but most courses were things like French Caribbean Literature, Art History, Civics, etc.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  French Caribbean Literature sounds pretty specific, but you really don't think Civics has any relation to engineering ethics?
  - nitwit005 7y ago
    If you're working for the government, there are some relevant parts of the constitution, but otherwise the answer is basically no. At least, not in a single semester course giving a rough overview of how the government is supposed to work.
    - _bxg1 7y ago
      Maybe not if it's as simple as "how the government is supposed to work", but the general subject of Civics would have plenty to do with: - How social media might affect democracy - How AI surveillance could impact human rights - The emergence of tech companies with the resources of nation-states etc.
      - nitwit005 7y ago
        I mean, the answer is no, in that the course I actually took didn't cover any of that. You're essentially creating a course you want taught. You can go look at the descriptions of some civics courses for non-majors. I don't think you're going to find much discussion of AI surveillance. They have to cram what they can into a semester or quarter.
      - thu2111 7y ago
Balgair 7y ago
If anyone here is looking for a good overview of 'the liberal arts', I cannot more highly suggest The Harvard Classics, specifically the 15-minute a day reading guide : https://www.myharvardclassics.com/categories/20120612_1 https://www.myharvardclassics.com/categories/20120612_1 For example: Jan 23rd's reading is on Pascal and the art of persuasion: "Pascal, the keen-minded philosopher and mathematician, fathomed the human traits of man's nature with the same accurate measurements which made him famous in the realm of geometry. Read his searching analysis of man's conceit." Though the year's effort is not necessarily an ethics course, per se, the sum is a fantastic grounding in ethics (among many others). When I did the full year, I could not help but look up the authors and works in more detail on wikipedia and google. Delving in further, even for just another 15 minutes a day, really helped me 'suck out marrow' from the works. Especially since the guide was compiled at the end of the gilded age and before the wars and post-modern life, comparing it's view to today's is unavoidable and fascinating. Part of 'ethics' is mulling things over a lot, and The Harvard Classics is one of the best jumping off points for that out there. It's free, excellently curated, time tested, and quick.
- aidenn0 7y ago
  I think "15 minutes a day" is an underestimate though. I just looked at Jan 1, and language has drifted enough since the time of Franklin that a casual reading would miss much of what he is talking about.
forgottenpass 7y ago
It's wishful thinking that the lab science credit requirements somehow teaches rigor and critical thinking skills through osmosis. It doesn't, people learn how to write a lab report and continue being the same dummies that walked into the room. It's similar to wishful thinking to believe vague "humanities education" would impart any ethics. And at least in the science labs you don't have to figure out whether or not your grade depends on how well your reports parrot the teacher's own options back at them.
tripzilch 7y ago
> What we need are not "ethics in tech" courses, but for people in tech to get more exposure to general humanities education. I took an extracurricular class in Ethics (in general), probably the most useful class I ever took.

by _bxg1 7y ago

wolfgke 7y ago

> Require everyone - computer science majors included - to read and discuss classic literature, history, and philosophy. These books/things taught me nothing (nil) about ethics - they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago. On the other hand: good hard science-fiction literature sometimes is able to teach you one or two relevant things - even though I admit that ratio "text-to-read" to "important lessons learned" is rather low (i.e. you have to read immense amounts to get few important lessons). Because I love science-fiction, this is rather unimportant to me, but for people who follow my advice and now start to read science-fiction literature to learn some ethics lessons will be deeply disappointed if they have no deep love for the science-fiction genre.

_bxg1 7y ago
I won't say science-fiction never has substantive ethical content, but one definitely needs more than that. > they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago It's clear you're missing the point: ethics that are specific to a given technology, or even a specific social structure, are of limited value. If a person's moral system is going to be rich enough to apply itself to new technologies and situations that nobody has ever faced before, one needs a broad perspective on the human condition. A deeper understanding of right and wrong and the in-between. Civilization was very different centuries ago, but people were not.
- polishdude20 7y ago
  I think a beneficial course would be one where the students learn about the history of how controlling certain governments and malevolent agencies can be. History can tell us a lot about how bad it can get and the implications. People nowadays are forgetting the things that happened back in Russia under communist rule for example. We like to believe our information is in good hands and won't be used for nefarious purposes. We have forgotten how evil humans can be under certain circumstances.
- wolfgke 7y ago
  > Civilization was very different centuries ago, but people were not. Very different civilizations imply very different ethical questions that are relevant. I just say that the global (network) interconnectness brought a huge plethora of new ethical questions that were never relevant in the past - exactly because they were science-fiction at that time. That is why I mentioned science-fiction literature as far more relevant further above in the thread.
groby_b 7y ago
If you think they are about questions relevant centuries ago, I'd really like to know what you think the questions are. Many of the "classics" of classic literature (no pun intended) talk about questions that are perpetually relevant, and the same goes for lots of things that fall under history and philosophy. I don't debate there's a lot of garbage out there that falls under "it's old, so we'll teach it", but I can assure you that the vast majority does speak about relevant topics. And like in SF, the ones that endure are the ones that speak most clearly. In general, all stories teach about empathy - how can I put myself in somebody else's shoes. If you found a better way to learn that via SF, more power to you. The classics are still relevant because they provide the foundation upon all this is built, and so they become important once you discuss things in a wider circle. (E.g. I might like fantasy, and not have a solid enough grounding in SF. We need to find some common ground. Via acclamation, the world has picked literature/history/philosophy as that common ground) And so I'd encourage you to maybe go out and give some of it a try :) If you care for recommendations: For philosophy, I recommend "What does it all mean" by Thomas Nagel. I don't have a great recommendation for History - I like "By Steppe, Desert and Ocean", but it's incomplete & somewhat eurocentric. True world history in a single book is probably asking a bit much. Same goes for literature, but even more so - it's really a matter of taste. I adore "The Master and Margarita", but beware, it's weird :) Grapes of Wrath is a moving and v. relevant one. The Illiad is spectacular, but I only know German translations, never read it in English.
- techopoly 7y ago
  I like this comment. What you're describing is essentially the Great Conversation, and there aren't enough participants. But, the door is always open!
jkingsbery 7y ago
> These books/things taught me nothing (nil) about ethics - they are about questions that were relevant centuries ago. / On the other hand: good hard science-fiction literature... When I read these books, I learn nothing (nil) about ethics, they are about questions that are relevant centuries from now. I kid. More seriously though... the debate about whether a democracy should invade a country in order to ensure it's security while it's main enemy is a completely different country isn't a 21st century concern: the Athenians debated the same thing before invading Syracuse. What should the role of rich people be in a republic with vast wealth inequality and a rapidly urbanizing population during a time of increasing demagoguery and populism isn't just a concern in the 21st century US election for the office of President, it was also a concern in the 2nd century BC Roman election for the office of Tribune. We could come up with a new analysis about the trade-offs between a government of elected officials coming from the people and one consisting of specialized elites trained for the task, but Plato summarized the main arguments already in the Republic. The list goes on. I would sum up saying there's nothing new under the sun, but someone already beat me to it[1]. [1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1%3A9&version=NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1%...
LilBytes 7y ago
Get everyone to read Daemon!
tarsinge 7y ago
> “Or is it your reputation that's bothering you? But look at how soon we're all forgotten. The abyss of endless time that swallows it all. The emptiness of those applauding hands. The people who praise us; how capricious they are, how arbitrary. And the tiny region it takes place. The whole earth a point in space - and most of it uninhabited.” > “Soon you’ll be ashes, or bones. A mere name, at most—and even that is just a sound, an echo. The things we want in life are empty, stale, and trivial. Dogs snarling at each other. Quarreling children—laughing and then bursting into tears a moment later. Trust, shame, justice, truth—“gone from the earth and only found in heaven.” Why are you still here? Sensory objects are shifting and unstable; our senses dim and easily deceived; the soul itself a decoction of the blood; fame in a world like this is worthless. —And so? Wait for it patiently—annihilation or metamorphosis. —And until that time comes—what? Honor and revere the gods, treat human beings as they deserve, be tolerant with others and strict with yourself. Remember, nothing belongs to you but your flesh and blood—and nothing else is under your control.” ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
tripzilch 7y ago
Ethics is a field in philosophy. If you study that, you will learn about ethics. Or your professor really sucks, but it's not even hard to make a course in Ethics at least somewhat fun. The trolley problem writes itself..

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

Which universities allow computer science majors to skip classic literature, history, and philosophy? Every engineering program I'm familiar with requires at least 6 humanities courses.

singron 7y ago
Unfortunately, broadly required courses are often jokes designed to be passed by any warm body, filled with apathetic students, and often taught by someone who knows this. With AP transfer, I only took 5 courses (1 psych, 2 phil, 2 econ). I found the psych to be a waste and the econ was not relevant to this humanity context. I actually found the philosophy to be really useful in this context, but discussions were sometimes a bore since just about nobody did the readings before class.

compuguy 7y ago

Most colleges in the US have a general education requirement for humanities classes. That includes classes involving classic literature.

_bxg1 7y ago
Still, I wonder if either the quantity or the quality is too low. My university was particularly known for its well-rounded, humanities-friendly culture. But in my own experience, I only had one humanities class that I really felt like I learned things in. It was titled "Great Texts" - we read excerpts from The Iliad, Augustine's Confessions, Nicomachean Ethics, Plato's Republic, and others along the same lines - and most of the course was spent having engaging, open discussions about the readings. It had a major impact on my inner life and I wish I'd had time to take some other classes like that. My other "humanities courses" included: - "Political Science" - rote memorization of how the United States' government works with very little analysis or discussion - Psychology/Sociology, which were somewhat interesting but pretty straightforwardly scientific/memorization-heavy
jyrkesh 7y ago
In my experience, many of those requirements are waived or reduced in engineering and CS programs because of their significantly higher eng/CS course load. Not to mention those programs typically have a higher rate of students graduating in >4 years. So yeah, you're technically right, but it's disappointing to see universities actively moving in the other direction. Of course, it still seems like university hires are woefully unprepared on day one, though I think many of us agree that 6-12 months of "real world" training for new hires is unavoidable. My own anecdotal experience as a BA working in $BigTechCorp is that basic skills usually studied in the humanities are woefully lacking in many of my peers: writing/grammar, the ability to understand others' perspectives, and most of all ethics. The number of times I've had to say something like "uhhh, no, you can't do that, it's illegal" or explained to someone why maybe adding more telemetry to a client-side explanation may be controversial.
- wildrhythms 7y ago
  Anecdote: I went to a small private college in the Midwest (around 1,000 students or so) and CS majors like myself were indeed required to take humanities courses. For me this included a philosophy course, religion course, a course on female literature, a course on fictional literature, and three theatre arts courses. I attended for 2 years (transfer from a community college) and had an otherwise regular sized course load. I currently work at a $BigTechCorp.

nitwit005 7y ago

I went to a university that required quite a bit of liberal arts education with the CS degree. I can't think of anything with a substantial relation to engineering ethics covered in those courses. I don't mean that to be demeaning, but just the reality of what gets covered. I did take Intro to Philosophy (Can't say I learned anything new in it), but most courses were things like French Caribbean Literature, Art History, Civics, etc.

_bxg1 7y ago
French Caribbean Literature sounds pretty specific, but you really don't think Civics has any relation to engineering ethics?
- nitwit005 7y ago
  If you're working for the government, there are some relevant parts of the constitution, but otherwise the answer is basically no. At least, not in a single semester course giving a rough overview of how the government is supposed to work.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    Maybe not if it's as simple as "how the government is supposed to work", but the general subject of Civics would have plenty to do with: - How social media might affect democracy - How AI surveillance could impact human rights - The emergence of tech companies with the resources of nation-states etc.
    - nitwit005 7y ago
      I mean, the answer is no, in that the course I actually took didn't cover any of that. You're essentially creating a course you want taught. You can go look at the descriptions of some civics courses for non-majors. I don't think you're going to find much discussion of AI surveillance. They have to cram what they can into a semester or quarter.
    - thu2111 7y ago

Balgair 7y ago

If anyone here is looking for a good overview of 'the liberal arts', I cannot more highly suggest The Harvard Classics, specifically the 15-minute a day reading guide : https://www.myharvardclassics.com/categories/20120612_1 https://www.myharvardclassics.com/categories/20120612_1 For example: Jan 23rd's reading is on Pascal and the art of persuasion: "Pascal, the keen-minded philosopher and mathematician, fathomed the human traits of man's nature with the same accurate measurements which made him famous in the realm of geometry. Read his searching analysis of man's conceit." Though the year's effort is not necessarily an ethics course, per se, the sum is a fantastic grounding in ethics (among many others). When I did the full year, I could not help but look up the authors and works in more detail on wikipedia and google. Delving in further, even for just another 15 minutes a day, really helped me 'suck out marrow' from the works. Especially since the guide was compiled at the end of the gilded age and before the wars and post-modern life, comparing it's view to today's is unavoidable and fascinating. Part of 'ethics' is mulling things over a lot, and The Harvard Classics is one of the best jumping off points for that out there. It's free, excellently curated, time tested, and quick.

aidenn0 7y ago
I think "15 minutes a day" is an underestimate though. I just looked at Jan 1, and language has drifted enough since the time of Franklin that a casual reading would miss much of what he is talking about.

forgottenpass 7y ago

It's wishful thinking that the lab science credit requirements somehow teaches rigor and critical thinking skills through osmosis. It doesn't, people learn how to write a lab report and continue being the same dummies that walked into the room. It's similar to wishful thinking to believe vague "humanities education" would impart any ethics. And at least in the science labs you don't have to figure out whether or not your grade depends on how well your reports parrot the teacher's own options back at them.

tripzilch 7y ago

> What we need are not "ethics in tech" courses, but for people in tech to get more exposure to general humanities education. I took an extracurricular class in Ethics (in general), probably the most useful class I ever took.