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While I agree with the sentiment, sometimes people just need jobs to survive. I don't think the burden for keeping tech companies ethical should be placed on yo
by elmrunner 7y ago
While I agree with the sentiment, sometimes people just need jobs to survive. I don't think the burden for keeping tech companies ethical should be placed on young people who just want to eat
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- steveeq1 7y agoSo if you could take a job as a slave trader, you would do it then?
- qmmmur 7y agoWhat a silly take it or leave it response. Are you really intending to engage them in a serious discourse?
- steveeq1 7y agoMy point is that yes, you do have a responsibility to do good and not just leave it up the tech company or lawmakers. And no it is not silly.
- jaywalk 7y agoNot silly? Your response was borderline ridiculous. It's as if I said I'd have no problem working on tech for military drones, and your reply was "So you'd be fine with just going up to a random person and shooting them in the head?" Responses like that have no place in serious discourse.
- steveeq1 7y agoYou can make the argument that military drones are necessary for defense (although that point is debatable). There is no justification for going to a random person and shooting them in the head. False analogy.
- seattle_spring 7y agoThere's also no justification for owning slaves, so it seems like a pretty apt analogy.
- steveeq1 7y agoand hence, you can't use the "i'm only doing my job" excuse.
- steveeq1 7y agoI can't believe this answer got downvoted.
- qmmmur 7y agoIt's hyperbolic. The world is full of _nuance_ friend...
- Slikey 7y agoThe world isn't black and white. There is quite some way from someone entering an industry on the wrong foot to someone working as a slave trader. By your logic we should hang everyone committing a crime. Don't be silly.
- steveeq1 7y agoWho said anything about hanging everyone for a crime? That's a straw man. And, by and large, yes I do believe that the person should not engage in unethical behavior if the emoployer told them to. I'm using an extreme example, but my point still stands. I hate it when people say "I'm only doing my job" when asked if they're doing something unethical. You can always take another job.
- gamblor956 7y agoIf he could take a job as a slave trader, but didn't need to, he wouldn't. But if he had to take a job as a slave trader because there was nothing else available and he needed the money to survive...who are we to judge him in this hypothetical world where slavery is once again legal?
- steveeq1 7y agoI would choose to starve then.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago> I would choose to starve then. I fervently hope that I would as well. Unfortunately I think most of us, including me, have a breaking point at which hunger and desperation would win over principles.
- steveeq1 7y agoYou know, the sad thing is is that I think you're right. I've met normally good-natured people that, once they became a lawyer/salesmen/financial "advisor", they started doing utterly despicable, wicked behavior and justifying it as "I'm only doing my job". And then they would go on to church, or whatever, all the while thinking of themselves as "good people". Even more interesting, they would rally against "evil corporate behavior" as if they had no role in it.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y agoYeah, I marvel at the seeming dichotomy in the human mind. We're capable of such amazing reasoning and creativity, and moral courage. But the very same minds can sustain sets of beliefs that are clearly (to others) internally contradictory or irrational, or that rationalize behavior that's clearly violates one's own ideals.
- steveeq1 7y ago
- dang 7y ago"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- burkaman 7y agoTrue in some cases, but I think most tech workers at Palantir or Google or whatever can easily find an enjoyable, well-paying job at a more ethical organization.
- geebee 7y agoThey sure can. In fact, with their experience and flexibility, as well as the cushion of money they made by monetizing massive amounts of personal data collected from the unaware, they can probably be hired well above the sorry schlubs who worked for those more ethical organizations for the entirety of their careers. I wonder how the career programmers who worked at these organizations and still need the paycheck will feel about a new director or architect from google who is now "giving back".
- gpm 7y agoI think most tech workers at Palantir, probably believe that Palantir is a force for good. Why would you seek out a job at a company in that business if you didn't believe in that business? Unlike Google (or Facebook) it's not a large enough choice to be a "default" employment option.
- birdyrooster 7y agoBecause Palantir’s recruiting efforts are prolific, they spam engineers with emails and inmail, they spend tons of resources recruiting from college campuses with internships and swag. It’s hard to agree that anyone really has to seem out Palantir because I’m sure they’ve already been in contact.
- amyjess 7y agoImagine you just got laid off. You apply for unemployment, update your resume, load up Indeed, type your biggest skill into the search bar, and apply to every company in your area that you even remotely think you may be qualified for. Palantir bites. In fact, Palantir is the first one to bite. You make it through the interview process and get an honest-to-goodness offer, few other companies are talking to you, and of those few, they're just now doing their initial phone screen. What do you do: take the offer or see if one of those phone screens pans out? Oh, and in most states if you decline a job offer, you lose your unemployment. If you decide to gamble and wait, you're gambling that you'll get an offer from someone else before rent comes due. Are you really willing to take that risk? Now let's throw in another twist: you've got a family. And let's even be generous here and say you've got a few other leads at or very close to the offer stage, so it's not like you're going to end up on the streets for nonpayment of rent. But all of your other leads pay so much less that your children's lives will be noticeably affected. You may not like what Palantir does... but are you willing to tell your kids that Christmas is cancelled and you have to move to a much smaller house in a different part of town thus ripping them away from all their friends at school?
- striking 7y agoThere are plenty of companies that fulfill the needs of their employees and manage to somehow make money ethically. By all means, if someone has no other option than to work for Evil Inc. or otherwise starve, they shouldn't starve. But as software engineers we generally get our pick of where we want to work and in those cases should use it to make the world a better place rather than worse.
- xg15 7y agoIn principle yes, though I'd argue those are not the tech jobs discussed here. So far I haven't heard of anyone who was forced to code the next behavioural analytics platform because they got nothing to eat otherwise.
- whytaka 7y agoThis is a pretty misaligned argument considering the context. These “kids” have internships that pay better than most other jobs. Ethics is on everybody. These “kids” are grown adults.
- blowski 7y agoThis challenge isn't new or unique to the tech industry. Pretty much all sacred texts and books of ancient wisdom say something akin to "don't value money above everything else", because it's always been difficult to resist the temptation to trade some of your principles for cash. What those texts have to teach us is that the value of that cash has diminishing returns, and eventually you'll be disappointed that you made the trade. I applaud Mozilla for suggesting that people should consider where they draw their personal red lines, and encouraging them not to cross it for any amount of cash.
- jes5199 7y agoyesss but people who take jobs at FAANG companies are generally not in that situation
- takeda 7y agoAlso, maybe I live under a rock, but the N in FAANG I consider ethical, others not so much.
- briandear 7y agoHow is Apple not ethical? As far as Netflix, one might explore their culture a bit before giving them a pass. [1] [1] https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/netflix-settles-executive-claiming-widespread-sexual-harassment-1050313 https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/netflix-settles-ex...
- uoaei 7y agoBesides the working conditions at contracted factories? One could make the argument that advertising at and subsequently locking someone into the walled-garden ecosystem is unethical because you are artificially inflating the consumers' opportunity costs. Some would look at that and call it a milder form of price-gouging. It's a really weak argument compared to literal human rights abuses, but we're talking about ethics here, which is necessarily broad.
- jonfw 7y agoThere is absolutely zero evidence in that article. A lawsuit is not an indication of guilt by itself, particularly when the plaintiff was recently terminated.
- Nasrudith 7y agoFAANG being even in the running is downright bizzare in my opinion given the countless companies which are worse and don't receive such condemnation. Cynically I suspect a propaganda push by rivals, more innocently a stupid human anti-novelty bias where a self driving car hitting someone at a dangerously designed road crossing at a blind intersection with a high speed limit worries more than at a stop sign scares people more than a drunk driver running over a bus stop full of kids. Some of it might be because of information compression of things that are less relevant or taken for granted like "Don't work for the Mob, Blackwater, or the NSA." are essentially a given."
- invalidusernam3 7y ago100%, and not just young people. I'm in my mid thirties and I work for a tech company whose clients include some of the most evil companies in the world. Do I feel proud about the work I do? Absolutely not. Do I like not starving to death? Yes. Would I prefer working somewhere else? Absolutely, but life isn't always that simple
- iudqnolq 7y agoFYI which company you work for is readily available. Assume you probably know, but wanted to make sure.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- pkaye 7y agoOracle?!
- deadbunny 7y agoThey said the clients were the evil ones, not their employer.
- bitcurious 7y ago> Would I prefer working somewhere else? Absolutely... Have you done anything to act on that preference? Did you send a resume out this week? Are you networking? Prioritizing your/your families wellbeing over an abstract evil might make sense the day you take that job, but that circumstance must be re-evaluated regularly. Too often folks talk themselves into thinking what they are doing today is ok because they didn’t have a choice yesterday.
- shifto 7y agoNot OP but yes I have. Places I would like to work either don't want me or the difference in pay is so big I can't choose them over my current job. I have a family to maintain and I feel this pressure more ever since I became a dad.
- takeda 7y agoMost of these companies are in Silicon Valley. There are tons of other options over there. If you look for excuse, you'll always find one.
- fma 7y agoI wonder if a low UBI (Universal Basic Income, $1k a month / person) enough for one to 'surive'. If you can quit and survive long enough for a new job before you thrive...you'll most likely say no.