8 ms·

Surely you're missing something about having highest paying jobs concentrated in a few cities where lots of people want to move to. Most of American has cheap h

by rb808 7y ago

Surely you're missing something about having highest paying jobs concentrated in a few cities where lots of people want to move to. Most of American has cheap housing, just many people would rather move to the most expensive places (which is why they're expensive).

shitpostbot 7y ago
I think you've got your cart before your horse
rjbwork 7y ago
This is a culture issue too. So much of work today that takes place in big cities can easily be done from home, but companies and managers are still stuck in a 20th century "butts in seats" mentality.
- psv1 7y ago
  > So much of work today that takes place in big cities can easily be done from home Not all that much - not everyone works in software, and not everyone who does will be most productive from home, and not every one of those will want to work from home. My work can be done from home and my employer is quite flexible - I still gladly spend the time and pay for my commute because I'd rather not be at home all day.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    I had a discussion with some people at a growing tech company looking to expand in one of their locations. I basically asked-/Cant more people just work from home? (Many already do.) they basically told me many of the younger employees would just up and quit if they couldn’t come into an office. Looking back on my earlier career I can sympathize.
    - mixmastamyk 7y ago
      Perhaps let the portion work from home that wanted to.
      - ghaff 7y ago
        That was pretty much the concept for any jobs that allowed it. In fact, the company was apparently taking away desks from people who weren't using them enough. (They could still hotdesk.) But the demand for desks was greater than the supply--even with a lot of office crowding.
    - vangelis 7y ago
      I'm partial to staying at home Monday and Friday. Sometimes you have meetings, sometimes you just want to come in and shoot the shit.
    - rjbwork 7y ago
      Why would younger folks up and quit if they couldn't come to an office? This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
      - Hextinium 7y ago
        If I lived in a 1100 ft apartment and had to work out of it every day I would legitimately probably never leave my apartment for anything other than food. It would drive me mad, and I would probably quit to work somewhere else.
      - watwut 7y ago
        Possibly they don't have calm or comfortable place for work at home. Possibly they would get lonely and demotivated over time. Possibly many people derive motivation from other people and would lack it absent personal contact - purely online classes have huge failure rates too.
        mywittyname 7y ago
        When I had a WFH job, I would go days without talking to anybody. I literally started conversing with the cat and singing because my throat muscles began to atrophy. Once I got back into an office, I realized that my social skills had gone to shit. There are some perks to WFH, but it can be bad for people who don't have a drive to seek human interaction with reasonable frequency.
        mixmastamyk 7y ago
        If you're going to WFH, definitely get out and walk to lunch in the sunshine/fresh air. We're not meant to live in a cave 24/7.
      - Balero 7y ago
        I live with two housemates. Some days they work from home, if I didn't have an office to work from, my house would become the office. Or more precisely my room as both my housemates work jobs that require lots of phone calls. I currently sleep and relax in the same room. I do not want to add working to the list of things I do there.
- nilkn 7y ago
  For what it's worth, I don't know many developers who'd want to work 100% remote. I think the samples that one implicitly takes from online comments can be really skewed. I do know lots of developers who'd like to work from home periodically, sometimes up to a few days a week. But they still like to be able to come into a physical office, have their own seat/desk, etc., the rest of the time.
  - rjbwork 7y ago
    Yeah I agree with that fo sho. I'd like 2-3 days/week WFH. I like seeing my co-workers, but commuting and being distracted sucks.
nerfhammer 7y ago
cities have only been like that for the last 10,000 years or so. they're the engine of growth of civilization. the artificial housing shortage trap has only been going on in the west since starting around 1960 or so.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  It's been a problem since industrialization. There was a mass migration in the 19th century to cities from small towns for work. It has caused the overcrowding you see today. Hopefully remote work, low orbit sat internet, solar efficiency, electric & autonomous cars will all lead to further decentralization. I don't see why if you could both live green and have space you wouldn't choose to do so. It doesn't seem to be a popular opinion here. All of the big city problems are caused by centralization. I certainly don't see why HN isn't embracing this perspective or at least entertaining it. I see cases brought against centralization of technologies every single day here. Luckily it's not up to you guys and it will naturally happen as we advance in technologies that allow us to spread out. Ironically y'all are developing it via Zoom, Slack, Figma, and any other collaboration tool that further allows us to asynchronously and remotely collaborate. What's the alternative? Abandoning the people that already live there and all the progress we've made in transportation in the last century. The writing is on the wall, the technologies and ideas are pointing in that direction. The current solutions are falling apart and covered in shit.
  - brosinante 7y ago
    Hopefully remote work, low orbit sat internet, solar efficiency, electric & autonomous cars will all lead to further Technical solutions to people problems.
    - omgwtfbyobbq 7y ago
      It's all people problems. To be fair, those technical solutions would address the people problems precipitated by the earlier technical solutions that drove people to cities in the first place, which were created to address earlier people problems, and so on....
balfirevic 7y ago
> Surely you're missing something about having highest paying jobs concentrated in a few cities where lots of people want to move to. Nothing is missing, what you describe is the scarcity that the parent poster is talking about.
goobynight 7y ago
The problem isn't isolated though. We're at the point where people living in tech hubs are buying houses in Ohio every couple of months, simply because they can. (owning) housing also isn't necessarily cheap relative to the jobs available in these areas.
- ericmay 7y ago
  > buying houses in Ohio every couple of months, simply because they can I doubt that, and even if they are I'm not sure it's a wise choice. Housing is cheap here compared to other areas, but it's not that cheap (unless you're buying stuff I'm not sure you'd want to buy anyway).
  - goobynight 7y ago
    You're doubting what? That there are people doing this? It's not hard on a bay area L4+ salary to have a spare 40-50k several times a year (20% of a 200-250k property), especially if you are snowballing with profits from multiple other properties.
    - ericmay 7y ago
      > You're doubting what? That there are people doing this? > buying houses in Ohio every couple of months, simply because they can Yes I am absolutely doubting this. > Snowballing with profits from multiple other properties Like, as in buying properties in Ohio then managing them? If it's in SF I can kind of see it since you can go to the property on short notice, but if you're in SF you aren't buying and maintaining rental properties in Ohio unless you have family here or someone to help out on the ground or unless you seriously enjoy throwing money in the trash. It's far too much work and rental property management companies don't really help except to find tenants. It's hard enough work when you're actually in the same location. I'm sure there exists people who do it (I don't think I've doubted that it's possible or that somebody somewhere does it) but I'd challenge it as a smart investment choice for sure. If you want to clarify here because I think that there's some ambiguity between your comment and the OP comment I responded to, please do and I'd love to chat about that.
tnel77 7y ago
My hometown, rural midwestern location, has so many homes available and all of them are under $100,000. 1,500-2,000sqft and 0.5+ acre lots. Many could use a little TLC, but are in safe and livable condition. There are many factories trying to hire anyone with a pulse and clean saliva (drug test that is easy to beat). There are also many engineering jobs available (primarily mechanical and civil). My hometown isn’t sexy though. No hip coffee shops. No gigabit Internet. Few restaurants. Trump supporters everywhere. All of the educated young people, myself included, flee the area.
- chii 7y ago
  and how much do those jobs pay? I think that's the problem - you cannot attract people with low pay (it can't be justified by saying the cost of living there is low).
  - tnel77 7y ago
    Depends on the job. My aunt is a recruiter for a factory in my hometown. Any human being with a pulse that can pass a drug test could walk in now and get a job paying $18-20/hr with only a high school degree. 1.5 weeks of vacation and health/vision/dental insurance (not the best ever, but better than many places) as well. For people getting the engineering jobs, salary is $50-70k. The cost of living is hilariously low, so it’s a lot more money than it sounds like.

by rb808 7y ago

shitpostbot 7y ago

I think you've got your cart before your horse

rjbwork 7y ago

This is a culture issue too. So much of work today that takes place in big cities can easily be done from home, but companies and managers are still stuck in a 20th century "butts in seats" mentality.

psv1 7y ago
> So much of work today that takes place in big cities can easily be done from home Not all that much - not everyone works in software, and not everyone who does will be most productive from home, and not every one of those will want to work from home. My work can be done from home and my employer is quite flexible - I still gladly spend the time and pay for my commute because I'd rather not be at home all day.
- ghaff 7y ago
  I had a discussion with some people at a growing tech company looking to expand in one of their locations. I basically asked-/Cant more people just work from home? (Many already do.) they basically told me many of the younger employees would just up and quit if they couldn’t come into an office. Looking back on my earlier career I can sympathize.
  - mixmastamyk 7y ago
    Perhaps let the portion work from home that wanted to.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      That was pretty much the concept for any jobs that allowed it. In fact, the company was apparently taking away desks from people who weren't using them enough. (They could still hotdesk.) But the demand for desks was greater than the supply--even with a lot of office crowding.
  - vangelis 7y ago
    I'm partial to staying at home Monday and Friday. Sometimes you have meetings, sometimes you just want to come in and shoot the shit.
  - rjbwork 7y ago
    Why would younger folks up and quit if they couldn't come to an office? This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
    - Hextinium 7y ago
      If I lived in a 1100 ft apartment and had to work out of it every day I would legitimately probably never leave my apartment for anything other than food. It would drive me mad, and I would probably quit to work somewhere else.
    - watwut 7y ago
      Possibly they don't have calm or comfortable place for work at home. Possibly they would get lonely and demotivated over time. Possibly many people derive motivation from other people and would lack it absent personal contact - purely online classes have huge failure rates too.
      - mywittyname 7y ago
        When I had a WFH job, I would go days without talking to anybody. I literally started conversing with the cat and singing because my throat muscles began to atrophy. Once I got back into an office, I realized that my social skills had gone to shit. There are some perks to WFH, but it can be bad for people who don't have a drive to seek human interaction with reasonable frequency.
        mixmastamyk 7y ago
        If you're going to WFH, definitely get out and walk to lunch in the sunshine/fresh air. We're not meant to live in a cave 24/7.
    - Balero 7y ago
      I live with two housemates. Some days they work from home, if I didn't have an office to work from, my house would become the office. Or more precisely my room as both my housemates work jobs that require lots of phone calls. I currently sleep and relax in the same room. I do not want to add working to the list of things I do there.
nilkn 7y ago
For what it's worth, I don't know many developers who'd want to work 100% remote. I think the samples that one implicitly takes from online comments can be really skewed. I do know lots of developers who'd like to work from home periodically, sometimes up to a few days a week. But they still like to be able to come into a physical office, have their own seat/desk, etc., the rest of the time.
- rjbwork 7y ago
  Yeah I agree with that fo sho. I'd like 2-3 days/week WFH. I like seeing my co-workers, but commuting and being distracted sucks.

nerfhammer 7y ago

cities have only been like that for the last 10,000 years or so. they're the engine of growth of civilization. the artificial housing shortage trap has only been going on in the west since starting around 1960 or so.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
It's been a problem since industrialization. There was a mass migration in the 19th century to cities from small towns for work. It has caused the overcrowding you see today. Hopefully remote work, low orbit sat internet, solar efficiency, electric & autonomous cars will all lead to further decentralization. I don't see why if you could both live green and have space you wouldn't choose to do so. It doesn't seem to be a popular opinion here. All of the big city problems are caused by centralization. I certainly don't see why HN isn't embracing this perspective or at least entertaining it. I see cases brought against centralization of technologies every single day here. Luckily it's not up to you guys and it will naturally happen as we advance in technologies that allow us to spread out. Ironically y'all are developing it via Zoom, Slack, Figma, and any other collaboration tool that further allows us to asynchronously and remotely collaborate. What's the alternative? Abandoning the people that already live there and all the progress we've made in transportation in the last century. The writing is on the wall, the technologies and ideas are pointing in that direction. The current solutions are falling apart and covered in shit.
- brosinante 7y ago
  Hopefully remote work, low orbit sat internet, solar efficiency, electric & autonomous cars will all lead to further Technical solutions to people problems.
  - omgwtfbyobbq 7y ago
    It's all people problems. To be fair, those technical solutions would address the people problems precipitated by the earlier technical solutions that drove people to cities in the first place, which were created to address earlier people problems, and so on....

balfirevic 7y ago

> Surely you're missing something about having highest paying jobs concentrated in a few cities where lots of people want to move to. Nothing is missing, what you describe is the scarcity that the parent poster is talking about.

goobynight 7y ago

The problem isn't isolated though. We're at the point where people living in tech hubs are buying houses in Ohio every couple of months, simply because they can. (owning) housing also isn't necessarily cheap relative to the jobs available in these areas.

ericmay 7y ago
> buying houses in Ohio every couple of months, simply because they can I doubt that, and even if they are I'm not sure it's a wise choice. Housing is cheap here compared to other areas, but it's not that cheap (unless you're buying stuff I'm not sure you'd want to buy anyway).
- goobynight 7y ago
  You're doubting what? That there are people doing this? It's not hard on a bay area L4+ salary to have a spare 40-50k several times a year (20% of a 200-250k property), especially if you are snowballing with profits from multiple other properties.
  - ericmay 7y ago
    > You're doubting what? That there are people doing this? > buying houses in Ohio every couple of months, simply because they can Yes I am absolutely doubting this. > Snowballing with profits from multiple other properties Like, as in buying properties in Ohio then managing them? If it's in SF I can kind of see it since you can go to the property on short notice, but if you're in SF you aren't buying and maintaining rental properties in Ohio unless you have family here or someone to help out on the ground or unless you seriously enjoy throwing money in the trash. It's far too much work and rental property management companies don't really help except to find tenants. It's hard enough work when you're actually in the same location. I'm sure there exists people who do it (I don't think I've doubted that it's possible or that somebody somewhere does it) but I'd challenge it as a smart investment choice for sure. If you want to clarify here because I think that there's some ambiguity between your comment and the OP comment I responded to, please do and I'd love to chat about that.

tnel77 7y ago

My hometown, rural midwestern location, has so many homes available and all of them are under $100,000. 1,500-2,000sqft and 0.5+ acre lots. Many could use a little TLC, but are in safe and livable condition. There are many factories trying to hire anyone with a pulse and clean saliva (drug test that is easy to beat). There are also many engineering jobs available (primarily mechanical and civil). My hometown isn’t sexy though. No hip coffee shops. No gigabit Internet. Few restaurants. Trump supporters everywhere. All of the educated young people, myself included, flee the area.

chii 7y ago
and how much do those jobs pay? I think that's the problem - you cannot attract people with low pay (it can't be justified by saying the cost of living there is low).
- tnel77 7y ago
  Depends on the job. My aunt is a recruiter for a factory in my hometown. Any human being with a pulse that can pass a drug test could walk in now and get a job paying $18-20/hr with only a high school degree. 1.5 weeks of vacation and health/vision/dental insurance (not the best ever, but better than many places) as well. For people getting the engineering jobs, salary is $50-70k. The cost of living is hilariously low, so it’s a lot more money than it sounds like.