14 ms·

> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, figh

> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. In this instance, Apple decided to continue to not encrypt iCloud backups because, according to one source, > […] the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously accessible data out of reach of government agencies or used as an excuse for new legislation against encryption. [0] Apple's stance on privacy is more than mere marketing and more than a meme, but their legal team decided that encrypting formerly unencrypted backups, which had already been used as evidence in previous cases, is ill-advised. Most people, including technically knowledgable users here on HN, were unaware iCloud backups have always been unencrypted. Many of us concerned about privacy have avoided iCloud backups because they are subject to subpoena. I wish Apple would (have) offered encrypted iCloud backup as an option, and I understand why they chose not to. However, I disagree that their stance on privacy is mere marketing. Apple has a balance to strike between the issues of encryption, privacy, and law enforcement, and their products are not perfect for either users or law enforcement. That doesn't mean Apple doesn't care about its users and their privacy. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...

soulofmischief 7y ago
It is mere marketing, if it is meant to convince consumers of one thing while in practice it's a different thing. The reasons why are irrelevant. Apple would prefer everyone just assumed iCloud backups were encrypted, and tries to keep quiet about it.
- lilyball 7y ago
  Apple has never marketed the idea that iCloud backups are encrypted.
  - zacwest 7y ago
    You need to be extremely technical to understand the difference between "Encryption: Yes" and not end-to-end encrypted. To the lay user, Apple is explicitly telling you that they're encrypted. See https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - codedokode 7y ago
      Nice trick. The big table in the beginning has "Yes" almost everywhere but in fact the data are accessible by Apple. And they don't even have warnings like "Your data might be decrypted and given to law enforcement agencies". Absolutely deceiving article although Apple hasn't written a single untrue word.
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    Apple did market to users that it was technically incapable of helping unlock iPhones. After the FBI showed that Apple technically can do so, that marketing disappeared very quickly. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/ios-8-even-apple-cant-give-your-data-nsa-n206171 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/ios-8-even-apple-cant-...
    - dwaite 7y ago
      The FBI proposed that Apple could write a new operating system variant that would let the FBI robot-brute-force the password, for certain older models at the time (without a Secure Enclave). I believe Apple changed how operating system updates were installed after this point so that they did not have the capability to upgrade the phone's operating system without access to the device passcode.
thathndude 7y ago
If unencrypted iCloud back ups is the price for us getting to keep fully encrypted devices, so be it
- alfiedotwtf 7y ago
  If backups aren't encrypted, then neither is your device
  - JoBrad 7y ago
    You can back them up locally.
    - drdaeman 7y ago
      But you can't do so automatically. You have to open iTunes (or Finder) and explicitly click a button. If Apple is privacy-oriented, they should've allowed this long time ago. Unlike iCloud backups, this is certainly not a legal issue, as the "local" backups stored on one's computer are already fully encrypted.
      - linusnext 7y ago
        True or not, you have my apathy and my down vote.* * My memory says I spent way too much on an iPhone. My ego says that can't be true, and in the end memory yields. -nietzsche
      - codedokode 7y ago
        If Apple were privacy-oriented then they would at least add a big red warning about reversible encryption when turning on cloud backups.
    - neop1x 7y ago
      I like it. If you want, you can make local encrypted backup. If you are lazy (and lots of terrorists and drug dealers probably are) you just flip the iCloud switch on at the first prompt. :) I have read that airport security is also not 100% effective but it is enough for these kinds of problematic people.
Despegar 7y ago
>Most people, including technically knowledgable users here on HN, were unaware iCloud backups have always been unencrypted. iCloud backups are definitely encrypted. They just aren't end-to-end encrypted. That should have been plainly obvious to any technically knowledgeable user because you don't lose your data forever when you forget your Apple ID password. Or the fact that you can see your photos through a web browser on icloud.com
- pingyong 7y ago
  >That should have been plainly obvious to any technically knowledgeable user because you don't lose your data forever when you forget your Apple ID password. Or the fact that you can see your photos through a web browser on icloud.com You could build a system where there's a key stored on each of your devices, and your password also acts like a key. In that case, you could - Lose all your devices, but unlock with password - Forget your password, but unlock with any device - Lose one device, but unlock with your password or any other device Of course, most people's passwords would probably be way to weak, no matter how much time Apple spends stretching it into a key, but for people who use a decent password this would be fairly secure.
- hiram112 7y ago
  Can you explain how this works? I'm assuming my IPhone itself is encrypted with my own password (or thumbprint) and that Apple could absolutely not get into it without that thumbprint. But when you send a backup, it's decrypted, sent to Apple, and then re-encrypted with a key that Apple controls, and has nothing to do with any of the "things I personally know"? IOW, I couldn't myself decrypt my Apple backup stored on their servers?
  - Despegar 7y ago
    Apple can't comply with a law enforcement request to get into your iPhone. They can comply with anything in your iCloud Backup except for the things under End-to-end encrypted data on this page [1]. Backups are encrypted "in transit" and "at rest", but Apple retains a key. That's how they can comply with legal requests and how you can restore your data if you forget your password. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
echelon 7y ago
> Apple has a balance to strike between the issues of encryption, privacy, and law enforcement [...] No, they do not. If Apple wants a reputation for privacy and respecting its customers, then it has to put them first. Don't apologize for them making this user-hostile choice. We could be merely a generation away from the hell hole that is social credit. We can't afford to keep ceding ground on privacy. We have to engender a sense of importance and urgency. I'll be very mad at the rest of you lot that choose convenience over privacy, rights, and autonomy if 2030 sees our freedoms and liberties eroded further. Our collective choices matter, and that's why I'm calling you out.
- Despegar 7y ago
  >If Apple wants a reputation for privacy and respecting its customers, then it has to put them first. "or used as an excuse for new legislation against encryption." By not making iCloud backups end-to-end encrypted, they likely did exactly that. Although I'd find it funny if by doing so they caused a backlash from governments with new laws that ruined encryption for everybody. It'd be dystopian but also funny.
- kortex 7y ago
  > We could be merely a generation away from the hell hole that is social credit. I fear we have one foot there already. If you are so inclined, you can dig up a lot of dox on most people, all freely given to social media, or via scrapers like Spokeo. I guess it's all still optional, kinda. And there is no centralized clearinghouse. But it is scary.
  - ehvatum 7y ago
    Not to worry, you are free to post on Yandex, “down with Trump,” and you are free to post on Facebook, “down with Trump”.
    - Nuzzerino 7y ago
      Try the inverse and let me know how that works out
morpheuskafka 7y ago
It's one thing for them to not encrypt the backups, its another thing to go out of their way to include the iMessage private key in the backup, which completely undermines iMessage E2E for 99% of users.
- colejohnson66 7y ago
  I’m not defending it, but they kindof have to if you want to recover your messages if you forget your password.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

soulofmischief 7y ago

It is mere marketing, if it is meant to convince consumers of one thing while in practice it's a different thing. The reasons why are irrelevant. Apple would prefer everyone just assumed iCloud backups were encrypted, and tries to keep quiet about it.

lilyball 7y ago
Apple has never marketed the idea that iCloud backups are encrypted.
- zacwest 7y ago
  You need to be extremely technical to understand the difference between "Encryption: Yes" and not end-to-end encrypted. To the lay user, Apple is explicitly telling you that they're encrypted. See https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - codedokode 7y ago
    Nice trick. The big table in the beginning has "Yes" almost everywhere but in fact the data are accessible by Apple. And they don't even have warnings like "Your data might be decrypted and given to law enforcement agencies". Absolutely deceiving article although Apple hasn't written a single untrue word.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  Apple did market to users that it was technically incapable of helping unlock iPhones. After the FBI showed that Apple technically can do so, that marketing disappeared very quickly. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/ios-8-even-apple-cant-give-your-data-nsa-n206171 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/ios-8-even-apple-cant-...
  - dwaite 7y ago
    The FBI proposed that Apple could write a new operating system variant that would let the FBI robot-brute-force the password, for certain older models at the time (without a Secure Enclave). I believe Apple changed how operating system updates were installed after this point so that they did not have the capability to upgrade the phone's operating system without access to the device passcode.

thathndude 7y ago

If unencrypted iCloud back ups is the price for us getting to keep fully encrypted devices, so be it

alfiedotwtf 7y ago
If backups aren't encrypted, then neither is your device
- JoBrad 7y ago
  You can back them up locally.
  - drdaeman 7y ago
    But you can't do so automatically. You have to open iTunes (or Finder) and explicitly click a button. If Apple is privacy-oriented, they should've allowed this long time ago. Unlike iCloud backups, this is certainly not a legal issue, as the "local" backups stored on one's computer are already fully encrypted.
    - linusnext 7y ago
      True or not, you have my apathy and my down vote.* * My memory says I spent way too much on an iPhone. My ego says that can't be true, and in the end memory yields. -nietzsche
    - codedokode 7y ago
      If Apple were privacy-oriented then they would at least add a big red warning about reversible encryption when turning on cloud backups.
  - neop1x 7y ago
    I like it. If you want, you can make local encrypted backup. If you are lazy (and lots of terrorists and drug dealers probably are) you just flip the iCloud switch on at the first prompt. :) I have read that airport security is also not 100% effective but it is enough for these kinds of problematic people.

Despegar 7y ago

>Most people, including technically knowledgable users here on HN, were unaware iCloud backups have always been unencrypted. iCloud backups are definitely encrypted. They just aren't end-to-end encrypted. That should have been plainly obvious to any technically knowledgeable user because you don't lose your data forever when you forget your Apple ID password. Or the fact that you can see your photos through a web browser on icloud.com

pingyong 7y ago
>That should have been plainly obvious to any technically knowledgeable user because you don't lose your data forever when you forget your Apple ID password. Or the fact that you can see your photos through a web browser on icloud.com You could build a system where there's a key stored on each of your devices, and your password also acts like a key. In that case, you could - Lose all your devices, but unlock with password - Forget your password, but unlock with any device - Lose one device, but unlock with your password or any other device Of course, most people's passwords would probably be way to weak, no matter how much time Apple spends stretching it into a key, but for people who use a decent password this would be fairly secure.
hiram112 7y ago
Can you explain how this works? I'm assuming my IPhone itself is encrypted with my own password (or thumbprint) and that Apple could absolutely not get into it without that thumbprint. But when you send a backup, it's decrypted, sent to Apple, and then re-encrypted with a key that Apple controls, and has nothing to do with any of the "things I personally know"? IOW, I couldn't myself decrypt my Apple backup stored on their servers?
- Despegar 7y ago
  Apple can't comply with a law enforcement request to get into your iPhone. They can comply with anything in your iCloud Backup except for the things under End-to-end encrypted data on this page [1]. Backups are encrypted "in transit" and "at rest", but Apple retains a key. That's how they can comply with legal requests and how you can restore your data if you forget your password. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

echelon 7y ago

> Apple has a balance to strike between the issues of encryption, privacy, and law enforcement [...] No, they do not. If Apple wants a reputation for privacy and respecting its customers, then it has to put them first. Don't apologize for them making this user-hostile choice. We could be merely a generation away from the hell hole that is social credit. We can't afford to keep ceding ground on privacy. We have to engender a sense of importance and urgency. I'll be very mad at the rest of you lot that choose convenience over privacy, rights, and autonomy if 2030 sees our freedoms and liberties eroded further. Our collective choices matter, and that's why I'm calling you out.

Despegar 7y ago
>If Apple wants a reputation for privacy and respecting its customers, then it has to put them first. "or used as an excuse for new legislation against encryption." By not making iCloud backups end-to-end encrypted, they likely did exactly that. Although I'd find it funny if by doing so they caused a backlash from governments with new laws that ruined encryption for everybody. It'd be dystopian but also funny.
kortex 7y ago
> We could be merely a generation away from the hell hole that is social credit. I fear we have one foot there already. If you are so inclined, you can dig up a lot of dox on most people, all freely given to social media, or via scrapers like Spokeo. I guess it's all still optional, kinda. And there is no centralized clearinghouse. But it is scary.
- ehvatum 7y ago
  Not to worry, you are free to post on Yandex, “down with Trump,” and you are free to post on Facebook, “down with Trump”.
  - Nuzzerino 7y ago
    Try the inverse and let me know how that works out

morpheuskafka 7y ago

It's one thing for them to not encrypt the backups, its another thing to go out of their way to include the iMessage private key in the backup, which completely undermines iMessage E2E for 99% of users.

colejohnson66 7y ago
I’m not defending it, but they kindof have to if you want to recover your messages if you forget your password.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]