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> because it’s new in the same way Haskell is new to a Java dev Do you have any hypotheses about why we don't see as much publicity for Haskell then?

sdegutis 7y ago
Hey nice to see you here, your SO posts have tremendously helped me learn Rust. I think Haskell is just too abstract for most of us. I love Rust traits and see how it directly came from Haskell but I couldn’t learn Haskell even after like 3 serious tries. Maybe a good portion of the problem is in the documentation and not the language? That said, the extremist purity is simply impractical compared to Rust which gets 90% of the way there without forcing all the architectural dances Haskell does. Just my opinion.
- shepmaster 7y ago
  You are quite welcome! I can't add much to the Haskell part as I've only ever used it sparingly. In many aspects, I view Rust as only having one or two small things that are new (or at least new in a non-research programming language). Its big strength is combining a lot of existing good ideas in a principled manner.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    I’d agree, basically Haskell is focused on academic purity and abstract experimentation while Rust is focused on being equally practical and innovative at the same time.
    - vperez 7y ago
      Haskell is actually used by companies to solve practical problems, a non trivial example being Facebook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlTO510zO78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlTO510zO78 Not too bad for an abstract experimentation.
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Haskell is easier to learn than Rust because it's literally just math. There is no "dropping" variables and no need to side-step the lack of GC, because you never "drop" a variable that you've stopped using in a math proof. You just let the GC deal with all that stuff. And you don't have a "stack" vs. "heap" distinction, instead you work directly in terms of function arguments and the returned values. You have currying so you can work naturally with parameterized and partially-applied functions, just like in math, etc. Lazy evaluation for "infinite" sequences and objects. That kind of stuff.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    > Haskell is easier to learn than Rust because it's literally just math. That explains why it was so hard for me to learn: I'm awful at math. The most advanced math I could understand was high school algebra.
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    GC is OK if the only resource your program needs to manage is RAM; and, in particular if time is not among them. There are many such programs, including the favorites of Computer Science, such as compilers. Add a single other resource, and now you need resource management. Once you have resource management, memory is the easiest thing to plug into it. If you start out having resource management, you never wonder whether GC would be a good idea. GC turns into a solution desperately looking for a problem, and finding none in your neighborhood.
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    Haskell is great if you would rather be doing maths than solving actual, real-world problems. And, either don't care about performance, or like subverting your design to get it. There are plenty of such people, and they need something to do that keeps them out of the way of people interested in solving real problems efficiently.
marcosdumay 7y ago
Don't we? I think I see more posts about Haskell than Rust here on HN. (What makes sense, since fits a larger set of applications.)
discreteevent 7y ago
Were you there when Haskell was new to the mainstream? For a few years there seemed to be nothing else on proggit.

sdegutis 7y ago

Hey nice to see you here, your SO posts have tremendously helped me learn Rust. I think Haskell is just too abstract for most of us. I love Rust traits and see how it directly came from Haskell but I couldn’t learn Haskell even after like 3 serious tries. Maybe a good portion of the problem is in the documentation and not the language? That said, the extremist purity is simply impractical compared to Rust which gets 90% of the way there without forcing all the architectural dances Haskell does. Just my opinion.

shepmaster 7y ago
You are quite welcome! I can't add much to the Haskell part as I've only ever used it sparingly. In many aspects, I view Rust as only having one or two small things that are new (or at least new in a non-research programming language). Its big strength is combining a lot of existing good ideas in a principled manner.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  I’d agree, basically Haskell is focused on academic purity and abstract experimentation while Rust is focused on being equally practical and innovative at the same time.
  - vperez 7y ago
    Haskell is actually used by companies to solve practical problems, a non trivial example being Facebook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlTO510zO78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlTO510zO78 Not too bad for an abstract experimentation.
zozbot234 7y ago
Haskell is easier to learn than Rust because it's literally just math. There is no "dropping" variables and no need to side-step the lack of GC, because you never "drop" a variable that you've stopped using in a math proof. You just let the GC deal with all that stuff. And you don't have a "stack" vs. "heap" distinction, instead you work directly in terms of function arguments and the returned values. You have currying so you can work naturally with parameterized and partially-applied functions, just like in math, etc. Lazy evaluation for "infinite" sequences and objects. That kind of stuff.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  > Haskell is easier to learn than Rust because it's literally just math. That explains why it was so hard for me to learn: I'm awful at math. The most advanced math I could understand was high school algebra.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  GC is OK if the only resource your program needs to manage is RAM; and, in particular if time is not among them. There are many such programs, including the favorites of Computer Science, such as compilers. Add a single other resource, and now you need resource management. Once you have resource management, memory is the easiest thing to plug into it. If you start out having resource management, you never wonder whether GC would be a good idea. GC turns into a solution desperately looking for a problem, and finding none in your neighborhood.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  Haskell is great if you would rather be doing maths than solving actual, real-world problems. And, either don't care about performance, or like subverting your design to get it. There are plenty of such people, and they need something to do that keeps them out of the way of people interested in solving real problems efficiently.

marcosdumay 7y ago

Don't we? I think I see more posts about Haskell than Rust here on HN. (What makes sense, since fits a larger set of applications.)

discreteevent 7y ago

Were you there when Haskell was new to the mainstream? For a few years there seemed to be nothing else on proggit.