31 ms·

Speaking as somebody who lost a loved one this way ... it's very hard on the family. I often wonder about my father's last moments ... did he know what was happ

by rusk 7y ago

Speaking as somebody who lost a loved one this way ... it's very hard on the family. I often wonder about my father's last moments ... did he know what was happening? Did he have any regrets, or any last things he wanted to say to people? For us as a family it was like a bomb going off, and we spent many many years cleaning up the debris, and in some ways nearly two decades later we still are. There are plenty worse ways to go, but it's not something I'd like to inflict on my family if I had the choice.

qwerty456127 7y ago
I'm sincerely sad for you having lost a loved one whatever a way yet I still can't imagine a way which would be less sad. And that's not because all the ways are equally sad but because all the other seem worse. So I certainly wish me and everybody else in my family are going to die this way when the time comes as long as we can't just live forever healthily and happily. Of course it would be better if we could know exactly when this is going to happen, some people do, but that's so unusual it's hard to hope.
fyfy18 7y ago
The death of any loved one is hard on any family, but IMO a quick, relatively painless, death is definately easier. My mother-in-law died from cancer a few years ago, and after many months of pain and constantly in and out of hospitals, when she was finally lying on her deathbed unconcious as her body began to give up, my wife was tasked with making the decision of whether doctors would administer a lethal morphine dose to end her suffering.
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  Very sad to read that. Yet, by the way, why do they always use lethal doses of morphine for euthanasia? I.e. I would strongly prefer a lethal dose of 5-MeO-DMT (which feels like spiritual ascension and dissolution in pure light, union with the universe and non-duality, and then you just forget to breathe in case of a lethal dose) for myself.
  - joeberon 7y ago
    It sounds like death is the opposite of what you think it is. DMT is obviously highly activating and opens the neurological floodgates so to speak (as is any seratonin-based psychedelic). Death is the total opposite of this: the total shutdown of all processes, much more like an extreme and total sedation Also is there even such a thing as a lethal dose of DMT?
    - qwerty456127 7y ago
      I don't know about n,n-DMT (which is a potent hallucinogen and for what simply DMT is a conventional shorthand for) but for 5-MeO-DMT (which is a distinct substance, very weak hallucinogen yet tremendously strong psychedelic) - it's not unlikely to die if you overdose. Doses above 25mg are dangerous, 100mg is probably an almost guaranteed physical death. You just experience being so free from the concepts of material (and mental) reality, one with G-d, Universe and everything, that you can (and will, if the dose is enough) forget about your physical body and it stops breathing. Curiously enough this substance seems being safe and even very beneficial as long as the doses are reasonable and this attracts scientific attention. I.e. I've read the following paper recently: A single inhalation of vapor from dried toad secretion containing 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) in a naturalistic setting is related to sustained enhancement of satisfaction with life, mindfulness-related capacities, and a decrement of psychopathological symptoms (DOI: 10.1007/s00213-019-05236-w).
    - Aeolun 7y ago
      There’s a lethal dose for pretty much anything.
      - Koshkin 7y ago
        Except you wouldn't want to die from overdosing on water.
        jsjohnst 7y ago
        I’d argue that suffering from water intoxication (what “overdosing on water” is called medically) is no worse than most other forms of ODing. Common symptoms are headache, nausea, cramping, and drowsiness. For those wondering how much water it takes, it of course varies based on body weight and how much salt is in your body, but generally speaking, drinking over a gallon (~4L) of water in an hour is at high risk.
- mcv 7y ago
  It varies. My mother and my wife's father died in the same year. He died suddenly of a heart attack. He was gone, no chance to say goodbye. My mother was diagnosed in the summer with pancreatic cancer, and had only a few months to live. She didn't want chemo, as it was unlikely to do much good, and she didn't want to spend the rest of her life in hospitals. It surprised me how calm she became about everything. She's always been a bit worried about everything, including her health, but now that her health was gone, she found peace. It was just before my parents' 45th anniversary, and she wanted the entire extended family to be there, and they were. We also planned a family weekend away. Originally the third weekend of October, but after my friends warned me that pancreatic cancer can move really quick, we moved it to the first weekend of October. We had a great time, she was fully conscious and happy, and just needed a bit more rest. On the second weekend of October, she was delirious in the hospice where she would die a few days later. I was very glad we could say goodbye like that.
  - S_A_P 7y ago
    I would never wish pancreatic cancer on anyone, and the thought of passing away suddenly without being able to tell my loved ones good bye is equally awful sounding to me. I suppose it highlights the importance of making sure that your friends and family always know how you feel about them.
    - rusk 7y ago
      Exactly this. If nothing else my experiences taught me the importance of biting the tongue on one hand, and not leaving things unsaid on the other.
    - mcv 7y ago
      And don't postpone spending time with them. We knew we had little time, so we used our time well. But it's often much too tempting to postpone these things, to neglect our family, and then something happens and it's too late.
  - digitalsushi 7y ago
    If I could have chosen whether to let my mother die from colon cancer over 18 painful months, or drop dead from a heart attack, I would rewrite history to the heart attack every single time. There is no way being able to say goodbye would overvalue the dignity of being so instantly gone.
Invictus0 7y ago
On the other side of this, I had a relative slowly waste away from cancer. There were no lingering questions, possessions were given away, goodbyes were said, and when the day came, everyone in the family had made peace with it, with the exception of her partner who had to endure the daily emotional burden of her suffering and care. I didn't cry at the funeral: it was as if she had died while still alive. For my relative though, the process was extremely expensive, painful, and undignified: in the end she basically starved to death in anguish, and frankly I think all of the family would have preferred her not to go out in this way.
Brian_K_White 7y ago
You don't get a "don't die" choice. Only a spectrum of how.
- rusk 7y ago
  Totally. There’s not really any easy way but would be nice to be able to get ones affairs in order and get those last things said, and make peace. Not that you get much of a choice anyway ...
  - qwerty456127 7y ago
    > would be nice to be able to get ones affairs in order Do that now and always keep your affairs in order ever after. Always remember the death is right behind you and live your every moment like if you knew it's the last one. This idea Carlos Castaneda taught is extremely valuable once you get it.
u801e 7y ago
> I often wonder about my father's last moments ... did he know what was happening? It's possible that he had no warning whatsoever before the event. From another article[1], a person who survived said he had no warning or memory of the event. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-51181230?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj67pji5JTnAhXxRd8KHR3uDnAQFjAAegQICRAB https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-51181230?sa=X&ved=2ahUK...
jrochkind1 7y ago
I imagine it depends on the age/life circumstance of the person dying too. You didn't say, but sounds like your father was fairly young? I'm sorry. My grandfather died this way, in his 80s, healthy and active up to then... very different thing.
gambiting 7y ago
My condolences. If I can just add two cents through - my father spent the last few months of his life dying from cancer, with the final week being nothing but a morphine-induced coma, with his entire body slowly shutting down, him only waking up every now and then to beg for some water(Which he couldn't drink anyway). It was the most horrendous experience I can imagine anyone going through, both for himself and for us as the family. If I had a choice I'd much rather just die than go through this hell. It would have been much easier on us all as well, those days spent sitting next to his bed and knowing that no, it won't get any better and we can't help in any way, will haunt me to the end of my days.
- tartoran 7y ago
  I second this. My grandfather’s slow painful leukimia death found me relief when he actially passed. I was relieved that he was no longer suffering, it was an experience that no human should go through..
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    Maybe there's nothing worse than suffering, but suffering is better than nothing. I would rather suffer an extra week than die.
    - avgDev 7y ago
      Have you ever suffered enough to make that comment though? It is hard to understand how an individual feels when they are on their last days fighting with cancer. I would like to be able to go, when I no longer want to suffer. Keeping people alive seems kind of sadistic to me. I highly recommend anyone watch documentary about Masahiro Tanaka. He was a palliative care doctor who treated dying patients, and was diagnosed with a cancer himself. He asked his wife who is also physician to ease his suffering and help him pass. The film crew wanted to film the ideal way to pass. What they witnessed was much more interesting. His wife kept him alive against his wishes, just to prolong his existence. It was quite sad.
    - mst 7y ago
nerdponx 7y ago
It goes both ways. I had a relative die of unknown causes just shy of her 90th birthday; she was working in her garden in the springtime and basically just dropped dead. It definitely was a terrible shock for us, but I really can't think of a better way to go.
prostheticvamp 7y ago
For what it’s worth: I lived through just such a thing. It was a wonderful experience - head went light, everything suddenly breezy and far away, too fluffy to cogitate on anything. If my sister hadn’t been there I would have for sure passed, because I certainly wasn’t calling for help. I imagined for a long time afterwards that that’s probably what heroin feels like, and why it’s so addictive. I was a little wrecked by the fact that the single most peaceful, pleasant experience I’d had in living memory was of dying.
- nodesocket 7y ago
  Wow, that is an amazing experience. Did it change your perspective on religion at all?
  - prostheticvamp 7y ago
    It did not. I was a secular humanist before and after, and drew no relation between that event and my beliefs.
  - paradox242 7y ago
    What does this have to do with religion?
ptaipale 7y ago
I still don't think it's worse than a slow, painful death (e.g. some types of cancer). One that occasionally gives you hope, and then plunges the patient into yet another deeper chasm, until there is one from which there is no return. In my country, the majority religion is Lutheran, and the church has a liturgic prayer which includes a line like "save us from the wicked sudden death", with the idea that people should be able to say goodbyes to their loved ones, arrange their lives and possessions and get their last rites before death; I think that is somewhat outdated by the availability of modern social security (like, a father/mother who dies does not need to agree about who cares for his/her children so that they don't starve). And it looks like deaths are slower than before (people live older, but still, the last years are long and may not be so good).

by rusk 7y ago

qwerty456127 7y ago

I'm sincerely sad for you having lost a loved one whatever a way yet I still can't imagine a way which would be less sad. And that's not because all the ways are equally sad but because all the other seem worse. So I certainly wish me and everybody else in my family are going to die this way when the time comes as long as we can't just live forever healthily and happily. Of course it would be better if we could know exactly when this is going to happen, some people do, but that's so unusual it's hard to hope.

fyfy18 7y ago

The death of any loved one is hard on any family, but IMO a quick, relatively painless, death is definately easier. My mother-in-law died from cancer a few years ago, and after many months of pain and constantly in and out of hospitals, when she was finally lying on her deathbed unconcious as her body began to give up, my wife was tasked with making the decision of whether doctors would administer a lethal morphine dose to end her suffering.

qwerty456127 7y ago
Very sad to read that. Yet, by the way, why do they always use lethal doses of morphine for euthanasia? I.e. I would strongly prefer a lethal dose of 5-MeO-DMT (which feels like spiritual ascension and dissolution in pure light, union with the universe and non-duality, and then you just forget to breathe in case of a lethal dose) for myself.
- joeberon 7y ago
  It sounds like death is the opposite of what you think it is. DMT is obviously highly activating and opens the neurological floodgates so to speak (as is any seratonin-based psychedelic). Death is the total opposite of this: the total shutdown of all processes, much more like an extreme and total sedation Also is there even such a thing as a lethal dose of DMT?
  - qwerty456127 7y ago
    I don't know about n,n-DMT (which is a potent hallucinogen and for what simply DMT is a conventional shorthand for) but for 5-MeO-DMT (which is a distinct substance, very weak hallucinogen yet tremendously strong psychedelic) - it's not unlikely to die if you overdose. Doses above 25mg are dangerous, 100mg is probably an almost guaranteed physical death. You just experience being so free from the concepts of material (and mental) reality, one with G-d, Universe and everything, that you can (and will, if the dose is enough) forget about your physical body and it stops breathing. Curiously enough this substance seems being safe and even very beneficial as long as the doses are reasonable and this attracts scientific attention. I.e. I've read the following paper recently: A single inhalation of vapor from dried toad secretion containing 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) in a naturalistic setting is related to sustained enhancement of satisfaction with life, mindfulness-related capacities, and a decrement of psychopathological symptoms (DOI: 10.1007/s00213-019-05236-w).
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    There’s a lethal dose for pretty much anything.
    - Koshkin 7y ago
      Except you wouldn't want to die from overdosing on water.
      - jsjohnst 7y ago
        I’d argue that suffering from water intoxication (what “overdosing on water” is called medically) is no worse than most other forms of ODing. Common symptoms are headache, nausea, cramping, and drowsiness. For those wondering how much water it takes, it of course varies based on body weight and how much salt is in your body, but generally speaking, drinking over a gallon (~4L) of water in an hour is at high risk.
mcv 7y ago
It varies. My mother and my wife's father died in the same year. He died suddenly of a heart attack. He was gone, no chance to say goodbye. My mother was diagnosed in the summer with pancreatic cancer, and had only a few months to live. She didn't want chemo, as it was unlikely to do much good, and she didn't want to spend the rest of her life in hospitals. It surprised me how calm she became about everything. She's always been a bit worried about everything, including her health, but now that her health was gone, she found peace. It was just before my parents' 45th anniversary, and she wanted the entire extended family to be there, and they were. We also planned a family weekend away. Originally the third weekend of October, but after my friends warned me that pancreatic cancer can move really quick, we moved it to the first weekend of October. We had a great time, she was fully conscious and happy, and just needed a bit more rest. On the second weekend of October, she was delirious in the hospice where she would die a few days later. I was very glad we could say goodbye like that.
- S_A_P 7y ago
  I would never wish pancreatic cancer on anyone, and the thought of passing away suddenly without being able to tell my loved ones good bye is equally awful sounding to me. I suppose it highlights the importance of making sure that your friends and family always know how you feel about them.
  - rusk 7y ago
    Exactly this. If nothing else my experiences taught me the importance of biting the tongue on one hand, and not leaving things unsaid on the other.
  - mcv 7y ago
    And don't postpone spending time with them. We knew we had little time, so we used our time well. But it's often much too tempting to postpone these things, to neglect our family, and then something happens and it's too late.
- digitalsushi 7y ago
  If I could have chosen whether to let my mother die from colon cancer over 18 painful months, or drop dead from a heart attack, I would rewrite history to the heart attack every single time. There is no way being able to say goodbye would overvalue the dignity of being so instantly gone.

Invictus0 7y ago

On the other side of this, I had a relative slowly waste away from cancer. There were no lingering questions, possessions were given away, goodbyes were said, and when the day came, everyone in the family had made peace with it, with the exception of her partner who had to endure the daily emotional burden of her suffering and care. I didn't cry at the funeral: it was as if she had died while still alive. For my relative though, the process was extremely expensive, painful, and undignified: in the end she basically starved to death in anguish, and frankly I think all of the family would have preferred her not to go out in this way.

Brian_K_White 7y ago

You don't get a "don't die" choice. Only a spectrum of how.

rusk 7y ago
Totally. There’s not really any easy way but would be nice to be able to get ones affairs in order and get those last things said, and make peace. Not that you get much of a choice anyway ...
- qwerty456127 7y ago
  > would be nice to be able to get ones affairs in order Do that now and always keep your affairs in order ever after. Always remember the death is right behind you and live your every moment like if you knew it's the last one. This idea Carlos Castaneda taught is extremely valuable once you get it.

u801e 7y ago

> I often wonder about my father's last moments ... did he know what was happening? It's possible that he had no warning whatsoever before the event. From another article[1], a person who survived said he had no warning or memory of the event. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-51181230?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj67pji5JTnAhXxRd8KHR3uDnAQFjAAegQICRAB https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-51181230?sa=X&ved=2ahUK...

jrochkind1 7y ago

I imagine it depends on the age/life circumstance of the person dying too. You didn't say, but sounds like your father was fairly young? I'm sorry. My grandfather died this way, in his 80s, healthy and active up to then... very different thing.

gambiting 7y ago

My condolences. If I can just add two cents through - my father spent the last few months of his life dying from cancer, with the final week being nothing but a morphine-induced coma, with his entire body slowly shutting down, him only waking up every now and then to beg for some water(Which he couldn't drink anyway). It was the most horrendous experience I can imagine anyone going through, both for himself and for us as the family. If I had a choice I'd much rather just die than go through this hell. It would have been much easier on us all as well, those days spent sitting next to his bed and knowing that no, it won't get any better and we can't help in any way, will haunt me to the end of my days.

tartoran 7y ago
I second this. My grandfather’s slow painful leukimia death found me relief when he actially passed. I was relieved that he was no longer suffering, it was an experience that no human should go through..
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  Maybe there's nothing worse than suffering, but suffering is better than nothing. I would rather suffer an extra week than die.
  - avgDev 7y ago
    Have you ever suffered enough to make that comment though? It is hard to understand how an individual feels when they are on their last days fighting with cancer. I would like to be able to go, when I no longer want to suffer. Keeping people alive seems kind of sadistic to me. I highly recommend anyone watch documentary about Masahiro Tanaka. He was a palliative care doctor who treated dying patients, and was diagnosed with a cancer himself. He asked his wife who is also physician to ease his suffering and help him pass. The film crew wanted to film the ideal way to pass. What they witnessed was much more interesting. His wife kept him alive against his wishes, just to prolong his existence. It was quite sad.
  - mst 7y ago

nerdponx 7y ago

It goes both ways. I had a relative die of unknown causes just shy of her 90th birthday; she was working in her garden in the springtime and basically just dropped dead. It definitely was a terrible shock for us, but I really can't think of a better way to go.

prostheticvamp 7y ago

For what it’s worth: I lived through just such a thing. It was a wonderful experience - head went light, everything suddenly breezy and far away, too fluffy to cogitate on anything. If my sister hadn’t been there I would have for sure passed, because I certainly wasn’t calling for help. I imagined for a long time afterwards that that’s probably what heroin feels like, and why it’s so addictive. I was a little wrecked by the fact that the single most peaceful, pleasant experience I’d had in living memory was of dying.

nodesocket 7y ago
Wow, that is an amazing experience. Did it change your perspective on religion at all?
- prostheticvamp 7y ago
  It did not. I was a secular humanist before and after, and drew no relation between that event and my beliefs.
- paradox242 7y ago
  What does this have to do with religion?

ptaipale 7y ago

I still don't think it's worse than a slow, painful death (e.g. some types of cancer). One that occasionally gives you hope, and then plunges the patient into yet another deeper chasm, until there is one from which there is no return. In my country, the majority religion is Lutheran, and the church has a liturgic prayer which includes a line like "save us from the wicked sudden death", with the idea that people should be able to say goodbyes to their loved ones, arrange their lives and possessions and get their last rites before death; I think that is somewhat outdated by the availability of modern social security (like, a father/mother who dies does not need to agree about who cares for his/her children so that they don't starve). And it looks like deaths are slower than before (people live older, but still, the last years are long and may not be so good).