5 ms·

His "reductive view" of rich vs poor is an answer to a very specific statement regarding Lottery winner and Sports Athletes which has been discussed many times

His "reductive view" of rich vs poor is an answer to a very specific statement regarding Lottery winner and Sports Athletes which has been discussed many times with the same conclusion: they're just not good at managing money.

umvi 7y ago
Right, and how can you expect them to be? If you throw a bunch of money into a poor person's lap, it's not like they magically have the knowledge and know how to invest it. This is one argument against UBI - money increase alone isn't enough, the knowledge increase needs to come from somewhere as well, and that's not something you can get in the mail.
- UnFleshedOne 7y ago
  That's actually argument _for_ UBI -- knowledge at managing money comes from having any money to manage. (Unless you teach that in school, but that would be way too sensible)
  - umvi 7y ago
    There is a certain amount of knowledge that comes from the experience of managing money, yes. But also, the financial world has a lot of jargon and pitfalls that are aren't exactly easy to learn, especially as a high school dropout with no math background and no educated parents to turn to for help. The _truth_ about UBI is that a lot of poor people's UBI is going to get completely eaten by predatory opportunists and then they will be in the same situation they are in. What they lack is mentorship. Without mentorship from people good at managing money, UBI (I predict) will not help the poor as much as you think - it will mainly help the educated middle class. For example, there is a (poor, uneducated) lady in my church receiving the equivalent of UBI from the state of Maryland. However, despite "having money to manage" she has not spontaneously gained knowledge in managing money. I sat down with her once to help see if there was something more she could be doing to stop being in crisis mode all the time, and it was insane how many "bills" she was paying that weren't even real bills. There's this dark network of predators out there that send out mail with a red stamp that says "Payment Due by 1/22/2020". It looks like a bill. But if you read closely, it's actually not a bill but some home security service they are trying to trick you into buying. An educated person tears it up and throws it away. An uneducated person thinks it's a bill to pay and loses a fraction of their UBI. Another fraction of her UBI was going toward utilities she wasn't even using. One bill was nearly $70 from Comcast for cable TV, but I pointed out that she didn't even own a TV. We freed up nearly $200/month that day just by cancelling services she wasn't using and throwing away fake bills. > Unless you teach that in school, but that would be way too sensible Schools didn't used to have to teach you every basic skill needed to thrive in society. You could pick those up on your own if you are motivated, or through your parents.
    - UnFleshedOne 7y ago
      But I expect a lot will not, and if a certain percentage of people in your network have a not horrible money management skill, chances you can find somebody to help. Or even just hear casual mentions of some of the things you did for that lady. Eventually most of the people will be ok. That lady was lucky she knew you. But what should have happened is her sister, or friend, or neighbor, or grocery store cashier, should have been able to smack some sense into her long ago. Some protections will be necessary for sure. I think there are some anti-gouging laws on the books already, and that fake bill should be classified as fraud if it is not already. Bigger potential money stream for organised crime will motivate enforcement, I'm sure. Schools teach about traffic lights and using microsoft word. Somewhere between those some budgeting and compound interest lessons would fit right in. Society change and will keep changing, schools might as well keep up.
    - _nalply 7y ago
      I upvoted this post and downvoted the post two levels up because I think that we need UBI just because work as the vehicle to share economy's gains to people is slowly breaking down. What's the alternative? It is a shame that scammers can exploit people that easily. But I think that just giving money to people wouldn't solve all problems anyway. Work, for example, is more than just a means of income. It is also a source of recognition, and missing recognition would make many people unhappy. But again: what's the alternative to UBI?
- chipotle_coyote 7y ago
  Well, you can at least be told how to manage your money better -- you can't be forced to get better at it, but the combination of someone telling you how savings work and actually having enough left over to save really does matter. Up until my mid-30s, "savings" meant building up enough of a cushion that when my current wobbly job collapsed, I'd be able to make it to the next wobbly job without going into serious debt. I understood about retirement savings at that point, but there were years I not only didn't have a 401(k) accessible to me but couldn't even fully fund my IRA. If I'd had a UBI of, say, $1K a month like Andrew Yang's proposal -- or even $750 a month -- it would absolutely have changed my relationship to savings. My IRA contributions would easily have been $50K or more than they are now, which would likely put me $100K+ ahead of where I am in savings by now.
  - umvi 7y ago
    > Well, you can at least be told how to manage your money better Exactly my point - who is going to be doing this in the case of UBI? Written instructions that come with the check? Charitable middle class mentors? Paid gov't employee?
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      Sure, it's a good question, and it's not an easy one to answer. The way I learned was honestly closest to "written instructions that come with the check," in that it was just reading information rather than being mentored. I suspect if I ran a UBI program, I would indeed work on some kind of basic instruction about finances that could be stuffed in with checks. But I'd also be trying to figure out some way to measure effectiveness of that sort of insert, ideally along with a few other trial programs. There's only so much you can realistically do, so metrics are pretty essential.
- hello_moto 7y ago
  I applauded organizations that help their employees to understand basic personal finance. For example: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/08/15/nba-transition-program-helps-rookies-avoid-financial-social-pitfalls/565654001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/08/15/nba-tra... I recalled Google also did a similar session before they went IPO. They hired someone to teach their employees how to manage the money. I have to say though that Personal Finance is one of those "must-have" skill that school SHOULD HAVE taught in the first place. I still don't get WHY they did not. Even the basic (more than just "save your money" advise) such as life+health insurance, retirement, budgeting (let's leave out mortgage and investment). Personal Health should be next. I know, I know, they have PE. But I'd like to see some basic Personal Health knowledge from "sleeping" to "eating-well". How to read ingredients from those junk foods.
Dylan16807 7y ago
Being bad at managing money is why someone would burn through a lottery windfall. It's probably not why they're poor in the first place!

umvi 7y ago

Right, and how can you expect them to be? If you throw a bunch of money into a poor person's lap, it's not like they magically have the knowledge and know how to invest it. This is one argument against UBI - money increase alone isn't enough, the knowledge increase needs to come from somewhere as well, and that's not something you can get in the mail.

UnFleshedOne 7y ago
That's actually argument _for_ UBI -- knowledge at managing money comes from having any money to manage. (Unless you teach that in school, but that would be way too sensible)
- umvi 7y ago
  There is a certain amount of knowledge that comes from the experience of managing money, yes. But also, the financial world has a lot of jargon and pitfalls that are aren't exactly easy to learn, especially as a high school dropout with no math background and no educated parents to turn to for help. The _truth_ about UBI is that a lot of poor people's UBI is going to get completely eaten by predatory opportunists and then they will be in the same situation they are in. What they lack is mentorship. Without mentorship from people good at managing money, UBI (I predict) will not help the poor as much as you think - it will mainly help the educated middle class. For example, there is a (poor, uneducated) lady in my church receiving the equivalent of UBI from the state of Maryland. However, despite "having money to manage" she has not spontaneously gained knowledge in managing money. I sat down with her once to help see if there was something more she could be doing to stop being in crisis mode all the time, and it was insane how many "bills" she was paying that weren't even real bills. There's this dark network of predators out there that send out mail with a red stamp that says "Payment Due by 1/22/2020". It looks like a bill. But if you read closely, it's actually not a bill but some home security service they are trying to trick you into buying. An educated person tears it up and throws it away. An uneducated person thinks it's a bill to pay and loses a fraction of their UBI. Another fraction of her UBI was going toward utilities she wasn't even using. One bill was nearly $70 from Comcast for cable TV, but I pointed out that she didn't even own a TV. We freed up nearly $200/month that day just by cancelling services she wasn't using and throwing away fake bills. > Unless you teach that in school, but that would be way too sensible Schools didn't used to have to teach you every basic skill needed to thrive in society. You could pick those up on your own if you are motivated, or through your parents.
  - UnFleshedOne 7y ago
    But I expect a lot will not, and if a certain percentage of people in your network have a not horrible money management skill, chances you can find somebody to help. Or even just hear casual mentions of some of the things you did for that lady. Eventually most of the people will be ok. That lady was lucky she knew you. But what should have happened is her sister, or friend, or neighbor, or grocery store cashier, should have been able to smack some sense into her long ago. Some protections will be necessary for sure. I think there are some anti-gouging laws on the books already, and that fake bill should be classified as fraud if it is not already. Bigger potential money stream for organised crime will motivate enforcement, I'm sure. Schools teach about traffic lights and using microsoft word. Somewhere between those some budgeting and compound interest lessons would fit right in. Society change and will keep changing, schools might as well keep up.
  - _nalply 7y ago
    I upvoted this post and downvoted the post two levels up because I think that we need UBI just because work as the vehicle to share economy's gains to people is slowly breaking down. What's the alternative? It is a shame that scammers can exploit people that easily. But I think that just giving money to people wouldn't solve all problems anyway. Work, for example, is more than just a means of income. It is also a source of recognition, and missing recognition would make many people unhappy. But again: what's the alternative to UBI?
chipotle_coyote 7y ago
Well, you can at least be told how to manage your money better -- you can't be forced to get better at it, but the combination of someone telling you how savings work and actually having enough left over to save really does matter. Up until my mid-30s, "savings" meant building up enough of a cushion that when my current wobbly job collapsed, I'd be able to make it to the next wobbly job without going into serious debt. I understood about retirement savings at that point, but there were years I not only didn't have a 401(k) accessible to me but couldn't even fully fund my IRA. If I'd had a UBI of, say, $1K a month like Andrew Yang's proposal -- or even $750 a month -- it would absolutely have changed my relationship to savings. My IRA contributions would easily have been $50K or more than they are now, which would likely put me $100K+ ahead of where I am in savings by now.
- umvi 7y ago
  > Well, you can at least be told how to manage your money better Exactly my point - who is going to be doing this in the case of UBI? Written instructions that come with the check? Charitable middle class mentors? Paid gov't employee?
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    Sure, it's a good question, and it's not an easy one to answer. The way I learned was honestly closest to "written instructions that come with the check," in that it was just reading information rather than being mentored. I suspect if I ran a UBI program, I would indeed work on some kind of basic instruction about finances that could be stuffed in with checks. But I'd also be trying to figure out some way to measure effectiveness of that sort of insert, ideally along with a few other trial programs. There's only so much you can realistically do, so metrics are pretty essential.
hello_moto 7y ago
I applauded organizations that help their employees to understand basic personal finance. For example: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/08/15/nba-transition-program-helps-rookies-avoid-financial-social-pitfalls/565654001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/08/15/nba-tra... I recalled Google also did a similar session before they went IPO. They hired someone to teach their employees how to manage the money. I have to say though that Personal Finance is one of those "must-have" skill that school SHOULD HAVE taught in the first place. I still don't get WHY they did not. Even the basic (more than just "save your money" advise) such as life+health insurance, retirement, budgeting (let's leave out mortgage and investment). Personal Health should be next. I know, I know, they have PE. But I'd like to see some basic Personal Health knowledge from "sleeping" to "eating-well". How to read ingredients from those junk foods.

Dylan16807 7y ago

Being bad at managing money is why someone would burn through a lottery windfall. It's probably not why they're poor in the first place!