30 ms·

People no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life, survey shows

156 points by rahuldottech 7y ago

tom-thistime 7y ago
Parts of this are commonplace: "Fifty-seven percent of respondents worry about losing the respect and dignity they once enjoyed in their country." Sure. Decisions are made top-down, expertise is discounted, etc. The culture has drifted. But then this frightening (to me) non-sequitur (to me): "Fifty-six per cent of the surveyed global population said capitalism in its current form does more harm than good in the world." Based on available data, abandoning capitalism makes all these problems much worse, plus overshadows them with questions of basic survival.
- helen___keller 7y ago
  Framing it as a dichotomy isn't particularly helpful here. "Capitalism in its current form" is the key phrase here - this includes crony capitalism, environmental devastation, disgusting levels of inequality, and sometimes even a total disregard for human life and health. (All depending on the country in question of course) A state run economy isn't necessary to fix these. It's possible to believe that capitalism does more harm than good, right now, and that the system can be fixed while remaining capitalistic
  - tom-thistime 7y ago
    "the system can be fixed while remaining capitalistic" If that's what people are talking about, great. I'm not frightened of whatever Scandinavia is doing. I'm not frightened of the New Deal.
    - helen___keller 7y ago
      I could be wrong but that's what I assume people are moving in favor for. I haven't seen any evidence that tankies are more than just a tiny minority on the internet, but I would be equally terrified to see the future they would impose.
      - deleted 7y ago
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- thomascgalvin 7y ago
  It would be more accurate to say unfettered capitalism does more harm than good. I don't think most people want to grow a gnarly beard, take up hammer and sickle, and overthrow the bourgeois. People generally like the fact that Apple releases a new iPhone with a better camera every year, and that Gmail reminds them of that doctor's appointment they scheduled six months ago. What they don't like is that the benefits of automation and increased productivity are going almost exclusively to the one percent. What they don't like is that a college degree is now minimal criteria for jobs that logically should not require one, and that the cost of that degree consumes the supposed salary benefits of having one. What they don't like is the fact that we're watching our ecosystem collapse in real time, and massive polluters tell us that it's our fault for using plastic straws. People aren't calling for a switch to Soviet-style communism, they're asking for their agency back. They want to be paid wages that are fair, wages that allow them to pay the rent and put food on the table. They want to be able to retire, and they don't want to have to become Wall Street savants in order to achieve that goal. They want to be able to have their health needs taken care of without bankrupting themselves and their family. Capitalism has made great contributions to our way of life. But unfettered capitalism, or worse, capitalism where the incumbents are protected by legislation, are syphoning off all of the value in our economy, leaving nothing for the everyday person. That cannot continue.
  - tsycho 7y ago
    I understand your intent, but what people "want" reads like an utopian wishlist. It's not clear that any strategy sustainably can take us there. All regulations are tweaks to free market capitalism, and more are definitely needed. But do you think that the masses that are rallying up behind authoritarian governments around the world are taking a view as nuanced as yours? I fear they are not.
    - thomascgalvin 7y ago
      Fair wages, health care, and stable retirement are a utopian wishlist now?
  - magduf 7y ago
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stopads 7y ago
I come from a very rough rural town in Kansas, I've personally known dozens of people who worked super hard their whole lives and still died in poverty and despair. I'm not sure what the correlation is between hard work and success, but it's much weaker than at least ten other factors.
- remmargorp64 7y ago
  It's not about working hard. It's about working "smart" and hard. You can work crazy hard to dig a hole in the middle of a field, but unless you are actually trying to accomplish a goal, the effort is wasted and leads nowhere. In much the same way, you can bust your ass working as a cart fetcher at a grocery store, but unless you are intentional about how you are going to use that hard work to leverage yourself into a better position, you are just going to maintain. Hard work should always be balanced by some amount of self education and intention, or else you run the risk of treading water and getting nowhere. The reality is that learning is an uncomfortable process. A lot of people find a comfortable rut and they seem to prefer just staying in it. This is why public education is so important. It forces people to give themselves at least a bare minimum amount of education. Just imagine how dumb and poor everyone would end up if parents weren't legally required to educate their kids.
  - thrwaway69 7y ago
    I agree but by the time you realize anything, you are pretty much burnt. Everyone around you pushes you to become like them in poverty. I have experienced it...now I do stupid things because I want peace instead of going against the momentum. I don't have energy to be smart to get belittled and thrown rocks at every time. It sucks!
  - stopads 7y ago
    Nobody in Kansas is wasting their time trying to dig a pointless hole to China, they are all pinching every penny and coming up with every hack, innovation, and shortcut they can to get by. The fact that you think people who failed must be stupid or slow learners says a lot about your worldview.
user5383 7y ago
Giant third world country (one of BRICS) citizen here. Only rich people believe that.
alpineidyll3 7y ago
Working hard without thinking hard doesn't work. Working hard without taking risks doesn't work. Working hard while thinking hard and taking risks has made me wealthy. YMMV
- fartcannon 7y ago
  Yes, our mileages may vary because what you've described could be survivorship bias from a lucky break. And since costs don't scale with wealth, any future risks you take can be absorbed by the original luck.
  - jnwatson 7y ago
    Exactly. HN in particular has a strong survivorship bias. Startups in the typical SV sense are not the way to wealth, any more than professional sports. The folks with rare talent, and the folks around them that can glom onto those people, have a small chance of making a lot of money. Everybody else, not so much.
- cntainer 7y ago
  > Working hard while thinking hard and taking risks has made me wealthy I'm sure there are plenty of people who did the same and failed. There are always many factors to consider but I would say the key one is luck. With a bit of luck you can easily miss one of the others (working hard for example) and still become successful.
  - TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
    This is where statistics are important to consider. If you do a task with a 20 percent chance of success but you do it 10 times, your chance of succeeding at least once becomes close to 100 percent. Many people balk at their first or second failure and stop trying, when the key is to keep trying over and over, learning and improving the entire way.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
rwnspace 7y ago
The dangers of a free Internet people, the proles are becoming self-aware!
badpun 7y ago
It's crucial to work hard, but FOR YOU, not for your employeer. I have a family member who worked very hard at her dead-end job (was very loyal to the company) and became bitter after they fired her (made redundant because of computerization). If she spent part of that energy on strategising on how to get ahead in her career, she'd be in much better position.
- tempsy 7y ago
  I think the point is if you reach a certain level of wealth your money starts working for you, and you really don’t have to do anything to get increasingly wealthier.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Not true other wise why would lottery winners and sports starts lose money to scammers etc Boxers in particular are prone to ending up in poverty.
    - thedaemon 7y ago
      Because they aren't investing and letting their money work for them. They are spending it frivolously.
    - tempsy 7y ago
      Because they are terrible with money? Rich people are rich because they see money as capital to create more opportunities with by investing it. Poor people are poor because they see money as something to be spent buying more things. That mentality doesn’t necessarily change just because you suddenly come into money.
      - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
        This is an extremely reductive view of rich-vs.-poor. By "reductive" I don't mean wrong, per se -- just that there can be an awful lot more to how much wealth one has than one's beliefs about What To Do With Money. For years of my life I was, if not precisely "poor," simply not making enough to save a material amount of money. I was nearly 30 before I got the first job that paid me $25K a year. I was not, IIRC, in serious debt then, but savings had never been an option before then -- and what I used those newfound riches to do was move out of the apartment I'd been living in, in an area of Tampa known as "Suitcase City" due to its transient population. (It was also known for high levels of crime.) I still wasn't able to save until that same job's salary was "readjusted for the market" to a whopping $36K. There are things I didn't know then, sure; the company I was at had a 401(k) plan and I contributed to it, but I wasn't contributing at any higher level than the company matched. When my salary hit (gasp) $50K, that was almost certainly a mistake, but I didn't know that. When I was laid off I had maybe $10K in savings and another ~$15K in investment. By some standards I was still poor, but it was not because I "saw money as something to be spent buying more things" -- it was in part because I didn't know much about the best ways to save for retirement, but in part because I just wasn't making a whole lot of money. Rich people certainly "see money as capital to create more opportunities with," but heartwarming anecdotes about grocery baggers who became multimillionaires notwithstanding, statistically speaking, rich people also tend to hit relatively high incomes pretty quickly in life. (They also are likely to come from similarly rich families, which matters more than we often like to admit.)
axilmar 7y ago
Success requires 3 things: 1) talent. 2) luck. 3) hard work. Talent allows one to have that idea that will provide a large client base when implemented. Luck allows the ideas to catch on because it is the right time for those ideas. Hard work allows the ideas to become products and services. Hard work alone is not enough for success.
- Iwan-Zotow 7y ago
  and then you struck oil
  - remmargorp64 7y ago
    It's a lot easier to get lucky and strike oil if you have already done a bunch of research beforehand and were digging in an area that was likely to have oil
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I would add 4): favorable conditions. This can mean being at the right place at the right time, being born into the right family or meeting the right people. Or you could put this under luck.
  - bhandziuk 7y ago
    That's the same as luck
- djrogers 7y ago
  Baloney - those are the requirements for one type of success. What if I don’t want to start a company or sell my idea to clients? I am successful because I live below my means, and spend a lot of time with my loving family. Hard work has definitely been part of my journey, but hoping for ‘luck’ is a foolish plan. If you live like you won’t be lucky (avoid debt, save for a rainy day, invest wisely and conservatively for retirement), you’ll wind up successful either way.
ptah 7y ago
> frequent consumers of news - remain far more trusting of every institution than the mass population. propaganda works
- theothermkn 7y ago
  Pithy, perhaps, but not entirely justified. For example, the implied causation might actually be reversed, that people who naturally trust institutions consume more news. The causal relationship could also be external to both: some other factor, like financial stability, causes people to believe in institutions and to consume more news. Or, the cause could even be direct, but much less cynical: The news may accurately inspire justified confidence in institutions. (Conversely, people who prefer to make up justifications or excuses might blame institutions and prefer to not expose themselves to news that discomforts that worldview.)
foxyv 7y ago
Hard work always has to be accompanied by being aware of reality around you. Working for UPS I saw all the ways my job could be automated and I knew it was a temporary thing. I think the hardest thing about our forthcoming economy is that the only jobs that are going to be left are going to be ones a lot of people can't even do because they don't have the talent or smarts. But at the same time a lot of very important jobs are being left undone because we don't value them. For instance: social work, psychiatric health and childcare.
kneel 7y ago
The best way to get ahead is to inherit wealth. The next best thing is financial services where you help people with their wealth management. After that you have to actually start working. Intelligence is key and must be applied to a STEM field or a niche trade/business. If you don't fall into any of the above things are looking grim. Careers that don't result in high yield profit are looked down upon.
- ronnier 7y ago
  If you are in tech and play your cards right, you can start to pull away and get yourself into a position where you can live off of investments and your net worth. The key is to work hard when you start out, save, invest, and live cheaply.
  - unknown_library 7y ago
    ...and work in the Bay Area.
    - halbritt 7y ago
      This helps. The cost of living keeps a lot of people out and there's a lot of competition for the folks that are here. In smaller markets the same supply and demand exists, but there are far fewer options and possibly less willingness on the part of employers to compete for new hires. A tech business in a smaller market might be growth constrained by a lack of talent and that may be fine. Tech employers in the bay area are generally under a lot of pressure to grow.
    - swebs 7y ago
      NYC pays a bit less, but you can live wayyyyyy cheaper. Decent apartments just outside of Manhattan can be found for under $1k per month.
      - maps7 7y ago
        "...and work in the " + USA What is the commute like in NYC?
m3kw9 7y ago
Is not a right question to ask, everyone’s “hard” and “a good life” is different from another. It’s wildly inaccurate and a sensational headline
naveen99 7y ago
S/better/easier Hard is the opposite of easy... Math checks out.
majos 7y ago
I'm confused, the headline and start of this article claim "people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life", but I can't find the supporting data anywhere in the article or the survey itself [1]? The survey does suggest that people in some places are pessimistic about their economic or social futures (divides pretty neatly as "you're optimistic if and only if you live in a developing country") but I don't know where the "working hard" bit is coming from. [1] https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-01/2020%20Edelman%20Trust%20Barometer%20Global%20Report_LIVE.pdf https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-0...
- francisofascii 7y ago
  It mentions this question is asked in a survey: "My hard work will be rewarded” with a score from 1 to 9. (reverse scored) POP_MDCr18 But you are right, I couldn't find the data to see how this question was answered.
- twmahna 7y ago
  I agree. Based on my reading of the study, the more accurate claim is: People no longer trust that their employers will take care of their long-term interests. There's little doubt in my mind that this claim is true.
  - wayoutthere 7y ago
    I agree and I think this brings up an interesting point: given the liquidity in the public stock market, employees are often more invested in the long-term success of the company than shareholders. For this reason, I think it's essential that employees are represented in a company's ownership structure if we want to ensure the long-term health of our economy.
AzzieElbab 7y ago
that is what happens in debt driven world when progress stops and statistics lie. the "wealth" is created by printing money and acquired by those with better access, inflation indices do not account for things that actually matter - housing, education, healthcare
- thunderbird120 7y ago
  Inflation indices almost always account for housing, education, and healthcare. https://www.bls.gov/cpi/questions-and-answers.htm#Question_10 https://www.bls.gov/cpi/questions-and-answers.htm#Question_1...
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    We're conditioned to only think of rates as opposed to the integral of those rates over time. AKA economists constantly hammer that since difference between wage inflation and rent inflation is 'small' there is no problem. And if you say otherwise you're a moron. Consider the result of that 40 years though.
  - AzzieElbab 7y ago
    You are right I will have to look at the guidelines book at some point. My feeling they cannot possibly be right because observed wage stagnation combined with observed costs should never converge to low inflation. Do they even consider mortgages maturity length and interests when looking at monthly payments?
- stanferder 7y ago
  In what sense has "progress" "stopped"?
  - AzzieElbab 7y ago
    My view of stoppage is that most of us are doing exactly the same jobs as we would 50 years ago. Yes, we have a sizable army of software developers, but outside of our silo things are not moving
tempsy 7y ago
Yeah...I mean I’ve made $25K in the stock market already this year for doing absolutely nothing
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
  It requires self denial, I’m surprised so many people gloss over this. After all, you could have taken that $25k out and spent it on yourself or on a vacation. A lot of people’s nest eggs are much smaller than they could have been because they choose to do something else with their money, either out of necessity of pleasure.
  - bhandziuk 7y ago
    I don't get your point?
- stevewodil 7y ago
  You've made (withdrawn/dividends) 25k, or your portfolio is currently up 25k?
  - tempsy 7y ago
    It’s a mix of everything.
- christiansakai 7y ago
  Market goes up and down. As long as that money is not realized, it is still just a number in a computer. When we need the money, it better be there and not actually less than what we put there.
  - tempsy 7y ago
    Markets have gone up...10 years and running now. Last 13 of 15 weeks have ended green. This is unprecedented. We haven’t had a -1% day in months. Do I think it will go down sometime? Yes of course. And I’ve hedged accordingly. But people who are scared to invest are missing a once in a lifetime opportunity.
rblion 7y ago
No, it won't. Working smart will though. Designing your life so passion, mission, and connection are overlapping. It is very possible to be fulfilled by your work while earning a good living and making a difference in the lives of others.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  Even having the time to work at aligning these goals is a privilege many do not have.
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3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
I’m always reminded of professional athletes. To be in the top 1% you pretty much need the genetics (inherit it). But that doesn’t mean you won’t get healthy by working out. You will probably never be a professional athlete, but if you want to be healthy you must be disciplined with what you eat and work out, and you will become healthy. You will probably never be 1% rich, but you still must be disciplined with how you spend your money and your time, and you can become wealthy.
- stanferder 7y ago
  You're underestimating luck. A better analogy would be a process that selects for the top 2% of athletes through competition, then enters them into a lottery.
- pmoriarty 7y ago
  I really struggle with discipline because of depression, inertia, and burnout. You're lucky if you've been raised in such a way that you are disciplined and can maintain it long-term without burning out. I wish I had a solution, but I'm feeling more and more hopeless about this as I get older.
idclip 7y ago
I was forced to work less hard by my employer who was paying by the ticket, and that stumped my creativity badly, and the seniors basically told me they're just planning to retire on a slow burner career. Success these days is mostly about bowing down and impressing the executive branch, which will reward your achiever attitude, according to their standards. That said, im kind of fresh to work, and those guys got kids. I think hard work is something reserved for hard things, and maybe what we consider hard work is just misidentification with a job, we on the cost of spiritual growth? I think were just confused, since what was hard is these days no longer that, and we’re experiencing a sort of midway shift.
- closetohome 7y ago
  > Success these days Success has always been about sucking up to the right people.
  - idclip 7y ago
    Unless youre someone like ghengis khan, or richard feynman, or elon musk/co. I think there are different hierarchies to climb in different ways, and hirarchies seem to be distributed in such a way that ass-kissing climbup one makes the majority of the total, still isnt the only one tho, or way. Wanna hear something funny? I saw a youtube/national geo. Video about chimps, actually about the ass-kissing hiera. There was a young imp who was helping the aging alpha, he wasnt the strongest, but he was still made alpha by the old alpha, and the grooming kept happening after said appointmment. Funny thin is, the strongest chimp wasnt chosen, and was second in command! He could beat both in single combat, but not while both teamed up. So i guess the ass kissing stuff has a role, i guess it selects for team players ... but damn man fo they Get toxic and abusive. It sorts of gives the impression that were not worth keeping around ... but then i see someone save a dog and my heart melts for our species.
    - Psyladine 7y ago
      The Khan may have stepped on the necks of Kings and raped queens on a whim, but you can bet he still took care of his own and placated the right people to give him that power to ravage the world outside his Mongols.
halbritt 7y ago
"Despite strong economic performance, a majority of respondents in every developed market do not believe they will be better off in five years' time." "Fifty-six per cent of the surveyed global population said capitalism in its current form does more harm than good in the world." Developed markets represent a tiny portion of the "global population". By and large globalism has caused significant income inequality in developed markets and declining social mobility. This seems problematic until one discovers that in the same 40 years billions of people have been raised out of extreme poverty by globalism and have access to education and health resources that didn't previously. Source is the book Factfulness or the site: https://www.gapminder.org https://www.gapminder.org This article is woefully misleading.
- allovernow 7y ago
  >This seems problematic until one discovers that in the same 40 years billions of people have been raised out of extreme poverty by globalism and have access to education and health resources that didn't previously I really think wealth inequality is a terrible metric for overall social wellbeing because it does not consider that the baseline has risen. It just comes off as a greedy attitude to be salivating over your neighbor's plate simply because it is larger, even though yours is quite full.
  - halbritt 7y ago
    > I really think wealth inequality is a terrible metric for overall social wellbeing because it does not consider that the baseline has risen. It just comes off as a greedy attitude to be salivating over your neighbor's plate simply because it is larger, even though yours is quite full. Rationally, I'd say that you were correct, but that does nothing to address the feelings of the folks missing the "American Dream".
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thrwaway69 7y ago
I don't even have opportunity to work hard so it's just pointless, though I am from an extremely rural part of a third world.
- mikelyons 7y ago
  I think it says a lot about the current state of the world that someone from extremely rural 3rd world is literate and has access to hacker news...!
  - thrwaway69 7y ago
    It probably doesn't as much because I am most likely an outlier where I live (and a recent high school drop out). Ignoring me though, there is something to be said about internet access. You may want to read up on jio and its impact. https://yourstory.com/2019/10/reliance-jio-quarterly-net-profit-subscribers-mukesh-ambani https://yourstory.com/2019/10/reliance-jio-quarterly-net-pro...
- pmoriarty 7y ago
  We don't get many people posting from rural parts of the third world, so thanks for posting! Just out of curiosity, what do you do with your all your spare time? Is there really nothing you can do with your spare time that'll help you get ahead? Something like education, maybe? Or doing something for your community that'll be valued and gain you some valuable skills or experience? Also, is there any way you could move somewhere where you feel you have more opportunity or maybe work remotely? What about making contacts with and impressing people who might be able to give you a chance at work? Or starting an online business of some sort?
  - thrwaway69 7y ago
    This will be long and may backfire. I apologise if it's not as constructive or straightforward (I am at my limit). I have been a completely useless shut in for the past 6 months. In August, my PC's motherboards PCI slot stopped working (b350 from Asus). I wasn't and still am not in a position to fix it. I have a 10 year old laptop which barely works for anything even with just debian + i3wm. I can't do much on it except reading. Before that, I used to contribute on GitHub occasionally and code stuff. I dropped out of high school in the starting of 2019 after well, sudden "accidents". It wasn't a hard decision by then. I had given up on formal education temporary, I focused on getting long due medical help and support. I had to do it all myself again, being burnt already it was pretty hard to carry yourself to doctors and then filter through fraud [0]. There is a major lack of good healthcare where I live, especially related to mental health even by national standards. I experienced a few disappointing appointments which resulted in bit of superstition, horrible shaming and ignorance. I changed and traveled around - got ton of pills prescribed at the end and that's it. Nothing helped much and I gave up on that temporary. I also had other piled up issues including physical health concerns from years of ... Before I actually decided to act last year, I was also cured by religious ramblings and stuff for last 3 years and negligence for past 8 years. There is bit of antisocial behaviour due to my dad locking me up inside house most of the time throughout my childhood and early teens. Anyways, I tried to move multiple times in the past through boarding school or other ways. My family eh...you know. I had to hop around 7 schools just so I will give up on some ideas and be tired. I didn't drop out of school plainly out of how horrible that environment is (I was beaten up, shamed and couldn't handle normal interaction because it seemed toxic). You are forced to write notebooks of literal gibberish and then be graded down, punished for actually doing anything right. One example from my IT teacher, I was marked down, vilified and then told to stand outside the class because I asked why she marked me down on a simple question (example of ISPs). She said chrome and firefox are ISPs. This happened too frequently... I don't think I have learnt one single thing from school other than bullshitting and licking to the authority. I could take it but then I developed servere anxiety, body dysphoria and bipolar. The amount of things to handle increased exponentially. My family is malfunctioned. Other than providing food and bit of cash, they won't do anything I think or have done so far. They all have problematic backgrounds. My dad especially, after losing his wife and few kids. I think this will spread more light - https://notably.cc/#/note?id=oz9fMjsOa https://notably.cc/#/note?id=oz9fMjsOa The environment is pretty shit. Not much expected though. Most people seem obnoxious, highly religious, ignorant and are hostile. Body dysphoria or mental health isn't taken very healthily here... I am legally not hirable and there aren't any jobs here. I have done some freelance work in the past (still have Bitcoins left in my wallet). After stagnation and lot of koolaid, I looked out for startup opportunity because nothing else made sense and I need-ed money to get any help or even move forward. You can notice it from my first thread here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21853500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21853500 I cooked some landing pages, put forms in different places to validate and find market fit. As a recent example, I put a shitty web page for another thing (it's incomplete)(https://ideacrate.xyz https://ideacrate.xyz). I had a list of things I wanted to validate (there's many. You wanna join my trello?)- something to automate invitation creation and sending them via physical or electronic means (there is already YC startup solving one problem - https://www.inkit.com https://www.inkit.com) Making it easier for developers to start up ad campaign pages and validate their products without having to use a terrible UI builder or go through hoops. MDX + static export with netlify as cdn, stripe integration and custom jsx components. I thought I could get in good school back later when I have money and had moved to a better place. (There is GED equivalent here, I did fill out form for that.) Basically, get CS or equivalent in future. Ultimately I am giving up for now on everything even if I want to try something. There's just no way. I don't feel much regret from having to shot down any goals or dreams. I have done that multiple times... Exhausted in every way possible. I don't have any friends since last year (except online ones) and I haven't talked much to my family or anyone really irl. 0] https://www.who.int/hrh/resources/16058health_workforce_India.pdf https://www.who.int/hrh/resources/16058health_workforce_Indi...
omani 7y ago
what do you mean "no longer"? working hard never lead to a better life. the only thing this survey shows is that people are waking up.
ranprieur 7y ago
What people call "hard work" is two different things. One is the puritan work ethic, forcing yourself to do shit you don't feel like doing, day after day, to achieve some goal. That may or may not lead to a better life, but it always leads to burnout. The other thing is obsession. You are intrinsically motivated to put in a ton of hours on something, and you get really good at it. The problem is, society is veering farther from human nature, so that there is less and less overlap between what we're obsessed with, and what society considers useful.
- maps7 7y ago
  Does this scenario match what you are saying? A person who is a talented musician but got a generic office job that has early starts and late evenings. They work hard but never really progress past a certain point. After work they're exhausted so they just watch Netflix. At weekends they socialize with their friends and family. Instead if that person had worked hard to dedicate themselves to becoming a successful musician their hard work would have paid off more.
  - mettamage 7y ago
    Counter example: I knew a guitarist who was just amazing. This guy could play any solo, any chord, and improvize. He was quick, and had crazy exercises (besides his normal one). One exercise he had: 30 minutes per day, just strum to build up strength. Unfortunately, playing music was his only gift. He lived alone on welfare. At least he lived in a country that gave him welfare. But I can easily imagine many musicians who focus on their craft and need to scour for food. Heck, that's to some extent even in my country the case, because if you're only good at music and horrible with money, you won't survive on welfare (I've seen that too, just not with this talented musician). So IMO it's more complicated than that.
  - jayd16 7y ago
    Maybe, maybe not. You need a way to support yourself as an artist. Lots of people choose the safe paycheck instead of tedium instead of working on their risky passion. Maybe a UBI will fix this one day.
  - 7y ago
anonu 7y ago
The growth rate of capital has exceeded the growth rate of wages for many many decades now. So you have two choices: 1. Invest in yourself 2. Invest in the market The first would mean you go to school, work hard, etc to earn a high salary. You hope that the payoffs of this will grow year over year. Turns out the long-term growth rate of wages is south of 4%. The second path you can take is invest your capital in the SPX. I did a quick calculation: SPX level in 1990: 334, today 3273. (3273/334)^(1/30) = 7.9% annualized growth. So basically the rich, the people with capital, earn almost twice on their investment doing nothing versus someone who invests in their career with hopes of earning more money.
- tempsy 7y ago
  Don’t talk about the market on HN. Every time I bring it up there’s a dozen people who insist that the stock market is a scam and no one should consider an appreciating asset as a contributor to their net worth.
  - wayoutthere 7y ago
    It's not only not a scam, it's the only reliable way to generate wealth.
    - tempsy 7y ago
      Not the only reliable way but it’s reliable. Real estate is more so in the right markets. But yes see my other comments for examples of what I mean.
      - wayoutthere 7y ago
        In my experience, it's difficult to amass the amount of wealth required to invest in real estate without the stock market.
        tempsy 7y ago
        It’s more work but I mean buying a rental in a market that is up and coming and renting it out. Most people can learn how to do it.
kp98 7y ago
>>> "he is pure symbol: less a person than a shell company for a diversified portfolio of anxieties about the future" As someone who closely follows & respects Thiel and for his clarity of thought + entrepreneurial ability, how do these outlets get away with writing stuff like this while still maintaining an audience
Mr_JK 7y ago
Good thread!
rayiner 7y ago
The article's choice of conclusion to run with is a great example of journalists cherry-picking data to support narratives prevailing among the journalistic set. If you look at the underlying survey, you have to look very carefully for the data that supports the headline: https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-01/2020%20Edelman%20Trust%20Barometer%20Global%20Report_LIVE.pdf https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-0.... If you look at Slide 73, "my hard work will be rewarded" is one of the three questions that feeds into the "lack of hope" dimension. If you look at Slide 12, "lack of hope" is actually the least prevalent dimension of the analysis. Just 26% of people cited "lack of hope" as being "true for them." There are many clearer conclusions that could've been made from the data. For example, almost everyone in the world sees businesses as more competent and trustworthy than governments. If you look at Slides 39-40, trust in business is 58% globally, versus 49% for government. People trust business even more than the media, which is the same as government at 49%. (Slide 42.) Slide 52 shows that 52% of people list governments as "corrupt and biased" versus 38% for businesses. Slides 55-56 show that businesses in most countries are rated as at least competent, and in many are rated as ethical. Whereas government is listed as both incompetent and unethical in most countries. (Again, businesses outperform the media, slide 57.) As to the data about "capitalism"--generally, the polls on that question look very different when you use a question that explains what "capitalism" means: https://reason.com/2014/07/10/64-of-millennials-favor-a-free-market-ov https://reason.com/2014/07/10/64-of-millennials-favor-a-free.... In the U.S., for example, millennials prefer "free markets" to "a government-managed economy" 2:1. See also: https://acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/05/23/great-news-even-socialists-love-free-market-poll https://acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/05/23/grea... > The poll shows that Americans trust the “free market” to be in charge of nearly every facet of society, including “the distribution of wealth” (by 40 percentage points), wages (27 points), and “the economy overall” (29 points). Internationally, overwhelming majorities of people in emerging and developing countries "agree" with the statement: "most people are better off in a free market economy, even though some people are rich and some are poor." https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/4hP0Ux5fnuZfwOvqn7SnjS-oZac=/1400x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3665018/Inequality-01.png https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/4hP0Ux5fnuZfwOvqn7SnjS-oZac=...
bostonvaulter2 7y ago
> Despite strong economic performance, a majority of respondents in every developed market do not believe they will be better off in five years' time. This is because the economy is no longer working for the average/median American. Unemployment may be at record lows, but this is missing the point and is NOT the right number to be focusing on. This number does not capture all those people who have given up on working altogether and instead filed for disability and have given up hope. One way that we know this is that the suicide rate is at a record high and the average life expectancy for America is actually declining (which is very uncommon for a developed country)
RickJWagner 7y ago
Houses are nicer than they used to be. Cars, too. We are living longer, and are more active into old age. Smart phones provide communications, information, and entertainment we could only dream of 15 years ago. People in general are more prosperous than we used to be. Maybe not in some aspects, but most certainly overall.
HelgaM 7y ago
I don't agree with that
qmmmur 7y ago
Pretty easy conclusion to come to given the observably lazy people who are incredibly successful and don't have to worry about food/rent.

156 points by rahuldottech 7y ago

Parts of this are commonplace: "Fifty-seven percent of respondents worry about losing the respect and dignity they once enjoyed in their country." Sure. Decisions are made top-down, expertise is discounted, etc. The culture has drifted. But then this frightening (to me) non-sequitur (to me): "Fifty-six per cent of the surveyed global population said capitalism in its current form does more harm than good in the world." Based on available data, abandoning capitalism makes all these problems much worse, plus overshadows them with questions of basic survival.

helen___keller 7y ago
Framing it as a dichotomy isn't particularly helpful here. "Capitalism in its current form" is the key phrase here - this includes crony capitalism, environmental devastation, disgusting levels of inequality, and sometimes even a total disregard for human life and health. (All depending on the country in question of course) A state run economy isn't necessary to fix these. It's possible to believe that capitalism does more harm than good, right now, and that the system can be fixed while remaining capitalistic
- tom-thistime 7y ago
  "the system can be fixed while remaining capitalistic" If that's what people are talking about, great. I'm not frightened of whatever Scandinavia is doing. I'm not frightened of the New Deal.
  - helen___keller 7y ago
    I could be wrong but that's what I assume people are moving in favor for. I haven't seen any evidence that tankies are more than just a tiny minority on the internet, but I would be equally terrified to see the future they would impose.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
thomascgalvin 7y ago
It would be more accurate to say unfettered capitalism does more harm than good. I don't think most people want to grow a gnarly beard, take up hammer and sickle, and overthrow the bourgeois. People generally like the fact that Apple releases a new iPhone with a better camera every year, and that Gmail reminds them of that doctor's appointment they scheduled six months ago. What they don't like is that the benefits of automation and increased productivity are going almost exclusively to the one percent. What they don't like is that a college degree is now minimal criteria for jobs that logically should not require one, and that the cost of that degree consumes the supposed salary benefits of having one. What they don't like is the fact that we're watching our ecosystem collapse in real time, and massive polluters tell us that it's our fault for using plastic straws. People aren't calling for a switch to Soviet-style communism, they're asking for their agency back. They want to be paid wages that are fair, wages that allow them to pay the rent and put food on the table. They want to be able to retire, and they don't want to have to become Wall Street savants in order to achieve that goal. They want to be able to have their health needs taken care of without bankrupting themselves and their family. Capitalism has made great contributions to our way of life. But unfettered capitalism, or worse, capitalism where the incumbents are protected by legislation, are syphoning off all of the value in our economy, leaving nothing for the everyday person. That cannot continue.
- tsycho 7y ago
  I understand your intent, but what people "want" reads like an utopian wishlist. It's not clear that any strategy sustainably can take us there. All regulations are tweaks to free market capitalism, and more are definitely needed. But do you think that the masses that are rallying up behind authoritarian governments around the world are taking a view as nuanced as yours? I fear they are not.
  - thomascgalvin 7y ago
    Fair wages, health care, and stable retirement are a utopian wishlist now?
- magduf 7y ago
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stopads 7y ago

I come from a very rough rural town in Kansas, I've personally known dozens of people who worked super hard their whole lives and still died in poverty and despair. I'm not sure what the correlation is between hard work and success, but it's much weaker than at least ten other factors.

remmargorp64 7y ago
It's not about working hard. It's about working "smart" and hard. You can work crazy hard to dig a hole in the middle of a field, but unless you are actually trying to accomplish a goal, the effort is wasted and leads nowhere. In much the same way, you can bust your ass working as a cart fetcher at a grocery store, but unless you are intentional about how you are going to use that hard work to leverage yourself into a better position, you are just going to maintain. Hard work should always be balanced by some amount of self education and intention, or else you run the risk of treading water and getting nowhere. The reality is that learning is an uncomfortable process. A lot of people find a comfortable rut and they seem to prefer just staying in it. This is why public education is so important. It forces people to give themselves at least a bare minimum amount of education. Just imagine how dumb and poor everyone would end up if parents weren't legally required to educate their kids.
- thrwaway69 7y ago
  I agree but by the time you realize anything, you are pretty much burnt. Everyone around you pushes you to become like them in poverty. I have experienced it...now I do stupid things because I want peace instead of going against the momentum. I don't have energy to be smart to get belittled and thrown rocks at every time. It sucks!
- stopads 7y ago
  Nobody in Kansas is wasting their time trying to dig a pointless hole to China, they are all pinching every penny and coming up with every hack, innovation, and shortcut they can to get by. The fact that you think people who failed must be stupid or slow learners says a lot about your worldview.

user5383 7y ago

Giant third world country (one of BRICS) citizen here. Only rich people believe that.

alpineidyll3 7y ago

Working hard without thinking hard doesn't work. Working hard without taking risks doesn't work. Working hard while thinking hard and taking risks has made me wealthy. YMMV

fartcannon 7y ago
Yes, our mileages may vary because what you've described could be survivorship bias from a lucky break. And since costs don't scale with wealth, any future risks you take can be absorbed by the original luck.
- jnwatson 7y ago
  Exactly. HN in particular has a strong survivorship bias. Startups in the typical SV sense are not the way to wealth, any more than professional sports. The folks with rare talent, and the folks around them that can glom onto those people, have a small chance of making a lot of money. Everybody else, not so much.
cntainer 7y ago
> Working hard while thinking hard and taking risks has made me wealthy I'm sure there are plenty of people who did the same and failed. There are always many factors to consider but I would say the key one is luck. With a bit of luck you can easily miss one of the others (working hard for example) and still become successful.
- TheAdamAndChe 7y ago
  This is where statistics are important to consider. If you do a task with a 20 percent chance of success but you do it 10 times, your chance of succeeding at least once becomes close to 100 percent. Many people balk at their first or second failure and stop trying, when the key is to keep trying over and over, learning and improving the entire way.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

rwnspace 7y ago

The dangers of a free Internet people, the proles are becoming self-aware!

badpun 7y ago

It's crucial to work hard, but FOR YOU, not for your employeer. I have a family member who worked very hard at her dead-end job (was very loyal to the company) and became bitter after they fired her (made redundant because of computerization). If she spent part of that energy on strategising on how to get ahead in her career, she'd be in much better position.

tempsy 7y ago
I think the point is if you reach a certain level of wealth your money starts working for you, and you really don’t have to do anything to get increasingly wealthier.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Not true other wise why would lottery winners and sports starts lose money to scammers etc Boxers in particular are prone to ending up in poverty.
  - thedaemon 7y ago
    Because they aren't investing and letting their money work for them. They are spending it frivolously.
  - tempsy 7y ago
    Because they are terrible with money? Rich people are rich because they see money as capital to create more opportunities with by investing it. Poor people are poor because they see money as something to be spent buying more things. That mentality doesn’t necessarily change just because you suddenly come into money.
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      This is an extremely reductive view of rich-vs.-poor. By "reductive" I don't mean wrong, per se -- just that there can be an awful lot more to how much wealth one has than one's beliefs about What To Do With Money. For years of my life I was, if not precisely "poor," simply not making enough to save a material amount of money. I was nearly 30 before I got the first job that paid me $25K a year. I was not, IIRC, in serious debt then, but savings had never been an option before then -- and what I used those newfound riches to do was move out of the apartment I'd been living in, in an area of Tampa known as "Suitcase City" due to its transient population. (It was also known for high levels of crime.) I still wasn't able to save until that same job's salary was "readjusted for the market" to a whopping $36K. There are things I didn't know then, sure; the company I was at had a 401(k) plan and I contributed to it, but I wasn't contributing at any higher level than the company matched. When my salary hit (gasp) $50K, that was almost certainly a mistake, but I didn't know that. When I was laid off I had maybe $10K in savings and another ~$15K in investment. By some standards I was still poor, but it was not because I "saw money as something to be spent buying more things" -- it was in part because I didn't know much about the best ways to save for retirement, but in part because I just wasn't making a whole lot of money. Rich people certainly "see money as capital to create more opportunities with," but heartwarming anecdotes about grocery baggers who became multimillionaires notwithstanding, statistically speaking, rich people also tend to hit relatively high incomes pretty quickly in life. (They also are likely to come from similarly rich families, which matters more than we often like to admit.)

axilmar 7y ago

Success requires 3 things: 1) talent. 2) luck. 3) hard work. Talent allows one to have that idea that will provide a large client base when implemented. Luck allows the ideas to catch on because it is the right time for those ideas. Hard work allows the ideas to become products and services. Hard work alone is not enough for success.

Iwan-Zotow 7y ago
and then you struck oil
- remmargorp64 7y ago
  It's a lot easier to get lucky and strike oil if you have already done a bunch of research beforehand and were digging in an area that was likely to have oil
Ididntdothis 7y ago
I would add 4): favorable conditions. This can mean being at the right place at the right time, being born into the right family or meeting the right people. Or you could put this under luck.
- bhandziuk 7y ago
  That's the same as luck
djrogers 7y ago
Baloney - those are the requirements for one type of success. What if I don’t want to start a company or sell my idea to clients? I am successful because I live below my means, and spend a lot of time with my loving family. Hard work has definitely been part of my journey, but hoping for ‘luck’ is a foolish plan. If you live like you won’t be lucky (avoid debt, save for a rainy day, invest wisely and conservatively for retirement), you’ll wind up successful either way.

ptah 7y ago

> frequent consumers of news - remain far more trusting of every institution than the mass population. propaganda works

theothermkn 7y ago
Pithy, perhaps, but not entirely justified. For example, the implied causation might actually be reversed, that people who naturally trust institutions consume more news. The causal relationship could also be external to both: some other factor, like financial stability, causes people to believe in institutions and to consume more news. Or, the cause could even be direct, but much less cynical: The news may accurately inspire justified confidence in institutions. (Conversely, people who prefer to make up justifications or excuses might blame institutions and prefer to not expose themselves to news that discomforts that worldview.)

foxyv 7y ago

Hard work always has to be accompanied by being aware of reality around you. Working for UPS I saw all the ways my job could be automated and I knew it was a temporary thing. I think the hardest thing about our forthcoming economy is that the only jobs that are going to be left are going to be ones a lot of people can't even do because they don't have the talent or smarts. But at the same time a lot of very important jobs are being left undone because we don't value them. For instance: social work, psychiatric health and childcare.

kneel 7y ago

The best way to get ahead is to inherit wealth. The next best thing is financial services where you help people with their wealth management. After that you have to actually start working. Intelligence is key and must be applied to a STEM field or a niche trade/business. If you don't fall into any of the above things are looking grim. Careers that don't result in high yield profit are looked down upon.

ronnier 7y ago
If you are in tech and play your cards right, you can start to pull away and get yourself into a position where you can live off of investments and your net worth. The key is to work hard when you start out, save, invest, and live cheaply.
- unknown_library 7y ago
  ...and work in the Bay Area.
  - halbritt 7y ago
    This helps. The cost of living keeps a lot of people out and there's a lot of competition for the folks that are here. In smaller markets the same supply and demand exists, but there are far fewer options and possibly less willingness on the part of employers to compete for new hires. A tech business in a smaller market might be growth constrained by a lack of talent and that may be fine. Tech employers in the bay area are generally under a lot of pressure to grow.
  - swebs 7y ago
    NYC pays a bit less, but you can live wayyyyyy cheaper. Decent apartments just outside of Manhattan can be found for under $1k per month.
    - maps7 7y ago
      "...and work in the " + USA What is the commute like in NYC?

m3kw9 7y ago

Is not a right question to ask, everyone’s “hard” and “a good life” is different from another. It’s wildly inaccurate and a sensational headline

naveen99 7y ago

S/better/easier Hard is the opposite of easy... Math checks out.

majos 7y ago

I'm confused, the headline and start of this article claim "people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life", but I can't find the supporting data anywhere in the article or the survey itself [1]? The survey does suggest that people in some places are pessimistic about their economic or social futures (divides pretty neatly as "you're optimistic if and only if you live in a developing country") but I don't know where the "working hard" bit is coming from. [1] https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-01/2020%20Edelman%20Trust%20Barometer%20Global%20Report_LIVE.pdf https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-0...

francisofascii 7y ago
It mentions this question is asked in a survey: "My hard work will be rewarded” with a score from 1 to 9. (reverse scored) POP_MDCr18 But you are right, I couldn't find the data to see how this question was answered.
twmahna 7y ago
I agree. Based on my reading of the study, the more accurate claim is: People no longer trust that their employers will take care of their long-term interests. There's little doubt in my mind that this claim is true.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  I agree and I think this brings up an interesting point: given the liquidity in the public stock market, employees are often more invested in the long-term success of the company than shareholders. For this reason, I think it's essential that employees are represented in a company's ownership structure if we want to ensure the long-term health of our economy.

AzzieElbab 7y ago

that is what happens in debt driven world when progress stops and statistics lie. the "wealth" is created by printing money and acquired by those with better access, inflation indices do not account for things that actually matter - housing, education, healthcare

thunderbird120 7y ago
Inflation indices almost always account for housing, education, and healthcare. https://www.bls.gov/cpi/questions-and-answers.htm#Question_10 https://www.bls.gov/cpi/questions-and-answers.htm#Question_1...
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  We're conditioned to only think of rates as opposed to the integral of those rates over time. AKA economists constantly hammer that since difference between wage inflation and rent inflation is 'small' there is no problem. And if you say otherwise you're a moron. Consider the result of that 40 years though.
- AzzieElbab 7y ago
  You are right I will have to look at the guidelines book at some point. My feeling they cannot possibly be right because observed wage stagnation combined with observed costs should never converge to low inflation. Do they even consider mortgages maturity length and interests when looking at monthly payments?
stanferder 7y ago
In what sense has "progress" "stopped"?
- AzzieElbab 7y ago
  My view of stoppage is that most of us are doing exactly the same jobs as we would 50 years ago. Yes, we have a sizable army of software developers, but outside of our silo things are not moving

tempsy 7y ago

Yeah...I mean I’ve made $25K in the stock market already this year for doing absolutely nothing

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
It requires self denial, I’m surprised so many people gloss over this. After all, you could have taken that $25k out and spent it on yourself or on a vacation. A lot of people’s nest eggs are much smaller than they could have been because they choose to do something else with their money, either out of necessity of pleasure.
- bhandziuk 7y ago
  I don't get your point?
stevewodil 7y ago
You've made (withdrawn/dividends) 25k, or your portfolio is currently up 25k?
- tempsy 7y ago
  It’s a mix of everything.
christiansakai 7y ago
Market goes up and down. As long as that money is not realized, it is still just a number in a computer. When we need the money, it better be there and not actually less than what we put there.
- tempsy 7y ago
  Markets have gone up...10 years and running now. Last 13 of 15 weeks have ended green. This is unprecedented. We haven’t had a -1% day in months. Do I think it will go down sometime? Yes of course. And I’ve hedged accordingly. But people who are scared to invest are missing a once in a lifetime opportunity.

rblion 7y ago

No, it won't. Working smart will though. Designing your life so passion, mission, and connection are overlapping. It is very possible to be fulfilled by your work while earning a good living and making a difference in the lives of others.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
Even having the time to work at aligning these goals is a privilege many do not have.

deleted 7y ago

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3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago

I’m always reminded of professional athletes. To be in the top 1% you pretty much need the genetics (inherit it). But that doesn’t mean you won’t get healthy by working out. You will probably never be a professional athlete, but if you want to be healthy you must be disciplined with what you eat and work out, and you will become healthy. You will probably never be 1% rich, but you still must be disciplined with how you spend your money and your time, and you can become wealthy.

stanferder 7y ago
You're underestimating luck. A better analogy would be a process that selects for the top 2% of athletes through competition, then enters them into a lottery.
pmoriarty 7y ago
I really struggle with discipline because of depression, inertia, and burnout. You're lucky if you've been raised in such a way that you are disciplined and can maintain it long-term without burning out. I wish I had a solution, but I'm feeling more and more hopeless about this as I get older.

idclip 7y ago

I was forced to work less hard by my employer who was paying by the ticket, and that stumped my creativity badly, and the seniors basically told me they're just planning to retire on a slow burner career. Success these days is mostly about bowing down and impressing the executive branch, which will reward your achiever attitude, according to their standards. That said, im kind of fresh to work, and those guys got kids. I think hard work is something reserved for hard things, and maybe what we consider hard work is just misidentification with a job, we on the cost of spiritual growth? I think were just confused, since what was hard is these days no longer that, and we’re experiencing a sort of midway shift.

closetohome 7y ago
> Success these days Success has always been about sucking up to the right people.
- idclip 7y ago
  Unless youre someone like ghengis khan, or richard feynman, or elon musk/co. I think there are different hierarchies to climb in different ways, and hirarchies seem to be distributed in such a way that ass-kissing climbup one makes the majority of the total, still isnt the only one tho, or way. Wanna hear something funny? I saw a youtube/national geo. Video about chimps, actually about the ass-kissing hiera. There was a young imp who was helping the aging alpha, he wasnt the strongest, but he was still made alpha by the old alpha, and the grooming kept happening after said appointmment. Funny thin is, the strongest chimp wasnt chosen, and was second in command! He could beat both in single combat, but not while both teamed up. So i guess the ass kissing stuff has a role, i guess it selects for team players ... but damn man fo they Get toxic and abusive. It sorts of gives the impression that were not worth keeping around ... but then i see someone save a dog and my heart melts for our species.
  - Psyladine 7y ago
    The Khan may have stepped on the necks of Kings and raped queens on a whim, but you can bet he still took care of his own and placated the right people to give him that power to ravage the world outside his Mongols.

halbritt 7y ago

"Despite strong economic performance, a majority of respondents in every developed market do not believe they will be better off in five years' time." "Fifty-six per cent of the surveyed global population said capitalism in its current form does more harm than good in the world." Developed markets represent a tiny portion of the "global population". By and large globalism has caused significant income inequality in developed markets and declining social mobility. This seems problematic until one discovers that in the same 40 years billions of people have been raised out of extreme poverty by globalism and have access to education and health resources that didn't previously. Source is the book Factfulness or the site: https://www.gapminder.org https://www.gapminder.org This article is woefully misleading.

allovernow 7y ago
>This seems problematic until one discovers that in the same 40 years billions of people have been raised out of extreme poverty by globalism and have access to education and health resources that didn't previously I really think wealth inequality is a terrible metric for overall social wellbeing because it does not consider that the baseline has risen. It just comes off as a greedy attitude to be salivating over your neighbor's plate simply because it is larger, even though yours is quite full.
- halbritt 7y ago
  > I really think wealth inequality is a terrible metric for overall social wellbeing because it does not consider that the baseline has risen. It just comes off as a greedy attitude to be salivating over your neighbor's plate simply because it is larger, even though yours is quite full. Rationally, I'd say that you were correct, but that does nothing to address the feelings of the folks missing the "American Dream".

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

thrwaway69 7y ago

I don't even have opportunity to work hard so it's just pointless, though I am from an extremely rural part of a third world.

mikelyons 7y ago
I think it says a lot about the current state of the world that someone from extremely rural 3rd world is literate and has access to hacker news...!
- thrwaway69 7y ago
  It probably doesn't as much because I am most likely an outlier where I live (and a recent high school drop out). Ignoring me though, there is something to be said about internet access. You may want to read up on jio and its impact. https://yourstory.com/2019/10/reliance-jio-quarterly-net-profit-subscribers-mukesh-ambani https://yourstory.com/2019/10/reliance-jio-quarterly-net-pro...
pmoriarty 7y ago
We don't get many people posting from rural parts of the third world, so thanks for posting! Just out of curiosity, what do you do with your all your spare time? Is there really nothing you can do with your spare time that'll help you get ahead? Something like education, maybe? Or doing something for your community that'll be valued and gain you some valuable skills or experience? Also, is there any way you could move somewhere where you feel you have more opportunity or maybe work remotely? What about making contacts with and impressing people who might be able to give you a chance at work? Or starting an online business of some sort?
- thrwaway69 7y ago
  This will be long and may backfire. I apologise if it's not as constructive or straightforward (I am at my limit). I have been a completely useless shut in for the past 6 months. In August, my PC's motherboards PCI slot stopped working (b350 from Asus). I wasn't and still am not in a position to fix it. I have a 10 year old laptop which barely works for anything even with just debian + i3wm. I can't do much on it except reading. Before that, I used to contribute on GitHub occasionally and code stuff. I dropped out of high school in the starting of 2019 after well, sudden "accidents". It wasn't a hard decision by then. I had given up on formal education temporary, I focused on getting long due medical help and support. I had to do it all myself again, being burnt already it was pretty hard to carry yourself to doctors and then filter through fraud [0]. There is a major lack of good healthcare where I live, especially related to mental health even by national standards. I experienced a few disappointing appointments which resulted in bit of superstition, horrible shaming and ignorance. I changed and traveled around - got ton of pills prescribed at the end and that's it. Nothing helped much and I gave up on that temporary. I also had other piled up issues including physical health concerns from years of ... Before I actually decided to act last year, I was also cured by religious ramblings and stuff for last 3 years and negligence for past 8 years. There is bit of antisocial behaviour due to my dad locking me up inside house most of the time throughout my childhood and early teens. Anyways, I tried to move multiple times in the past through boarding school or other ways. My family eh...you know. I had to hop around 7 schools just so I will give up on some ideas and be tired. I didn't drop out of school plainly out of how horrible that environment is (I was beaten up, shamed and couldn't handle normal interaction because it seemed toxic). You are forced to write notebooks of literal gibberish and then be graded down, punished for actually doing anything right. One example from my IT teacher, I was marked down, vilified and then told to stand outside the class because I asked why she marked me down on a simple question (example of ISPs). She said chrome and firefox are ISPs. This happened too frequently... I don't think I have learnt one single thing from school other than bullshitting and licking to the authority. I could take it but then I developed servere anxiety, body dysphoria and bipolar. The amount of things to handle increased exponentially. My family is malfunctioned. Other than providing food and bit of cash, they won't do anything I think or have done so far. They all have problematic backgrounds. My dad especially, after losing his wife and few kids. I think this will spread more light - https://notably.cc/#/note?id=oz9fMjsOa https://notably.cc/#/note?id=oz9fMjsOa The environment is pretty shit. Not much expected though. Most people seem obnoxious, highly religious, ignorant and are hostile. Body dysphoria or mental health isn't taken very healthily here... I am legally not hirable and there aren't any jobs here. I have done some freelance work in the past (still have Bitcoins left in my wallet). After stagnation and lot of koolaid, I looked out for startup opportunity because nothing else made sense and I need-ed money to get any help or even move forward. You can notice it from my first thread here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21853500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21853500 I cooked some landing pages, put forms in different places to validate and find market fit. As a recent example, I put a shitty web page for another thing (it's incomplete)(https://ideacrate.xyz https://ideacrate.xyz). I had a list of things I wanted to validate (there's many. You wanna join my trello?)- something to automate invitation creation and sending them via physical or electronic means (there is already YC startup solving one problem - https://www.inkit.com https://www.inkit.com) Making it easier for developers to start up ad campaign pages and validate their products without having to use a terrible UI builder or go through hoops. MDX + static export with netlify as cdn, stripe integration and custom jsx components. I thought I could get in good school back later when I have money and had moved to a better place. (There is GED equivalent here, I did fill out form for that.) Basically, get CS or equivalent in future. Ultimately I am giving up for now on everything even if I want to try something. There's just no way. I don't feel much regret from having to shot down any goals or dreams. I have done that multiple times... Exhausted in every way possible. I don't have any friends since last year (except online ones) and I haven't talked much to my family or anyone really irl. 0] https://www.who.int/hrh/resources/16058health_workforce_India.pdf https://www.who.int/hrh/resources/16058health_workforce_Indi...

omani 7y ago

what do you mean "no longer"? working hard never lead to a better life. the only thing this survey shows is that people are waking up.

ranprieur 7y ago

What people call "hard work" is two different things. One is the puritan work ethic, forcing yourself to do shit you don't feel like doing, day after day, to achieve some goal. That may or may not lead to a better life, but it always leads to burnout. The other thing is obsession. You are intrinsically motivated to put in a ton of hours on something, and you get really good at it. The problem is, society is veering farther from human nature, so that there is less and less overlap between what we're obsessed with, and what society considers useful.

maps7 7y ago
Does this scenario match what you are saying? A person who is a talented musician but got a generic office job that has early starts and late evenings. They work hard but never really progress past a certain point. After work they're exhausted so they just watch Netflix. At weekends they socialize with their friends and family. Instead if that person had worked hard to dedicate themselves to becoming a successful musician their hard work would have paid off more.
- mettamage 7y ago
  Counter example: I knew a guitarist who was just amazing. This guy could play any solo, any chord, and improvize. He was quick, and had crazy exercises (besides his normal one). One exercise he had: 30 minutes per day, just strum to build up strength. Unfortunately, playing music was his only gift. He lived alone on welfare. At least he lived in a country that gave him welfare. But I can easily imagine many musicians who focus on their craft and need to scour for food. Heck, that's to some extent even in my country the case, because if you're only good at music and horrible with money, you won't survive on welfare (I've seen that too, just not with this talented musician). So IMO it's more complicated than that.
- jayd16 7y ago
  Maybe, maybe not. You need a way to support yourself as an artist. Lots of people choose the safe paycheck instead of tedium instead of working on their risky passion. Maybe a UBI will fix this one day.
- 7y ago

anonu 7y ago

The growth rate of capital has exceeded the growth rate of wages for many many decades now. So you have two choices: 1. Invest in yourself 2. Invest in the market The first would mean you go to school, work hard, etc to earn a high salary. You hope that the payoffs of this will grow year over year. Turns out the long-term growth rate of wages is south of 4%. The second path you can take is invest your capital in the SPX. I did a quick calculation: SPX level in 1990: 334, today 3273. (3273/334)^(1/30) = 7.9% annualized growth. So basically the rich, the people with capital, earn almost twice on their investment doing nothing versus someone who invests in their career with hopes of earning more money.

tempsy 7y ago
Don’t talk about the market on HN. Every time I bring it up there’s a dozen people who insist that the stock market is a scam and no one should consider an appreciating asset as a contributor to their net worth.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  It's not only not a scam, it's the only reliable way to generate wealth.
  - tempsy 7y ago
    Not the only reliable way but it’s reliable. Real estate is more so in the right markets. But yes see my other comments for examples of what I mean.
    - wayoutthere 7y ago
      In my experience, it's difficult to amass the amount of wealth required to invest in real estate without the stock market.
      - tempsy 7y ago
        It’s more work but I mean buying a rental in a market that is up and coming and renting it out. Most people can learn how to do it.

kp98 7y ago

>>> "he is pure symbol: less a person than a shell company for a diversified portfolio of anxieties about the future" As someone who closely follows & respects Thiel and for his clarity of thought + entrepreneurial ability, how do these outlets get away with writing stuff like this while still maintaining an audience

Mr_JK 7y ago

Good thread!

rayiner 7y ago

The article's choice of conclusion to run with is a great example of journalists cherry-picking data to support narratives prevailing among the journalistic set. If you look at the underlying survey, you have to look very carefully for the data that supports the headline: https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-01/2020%20Edelman%20Trust%20Barometer%20Global%20Report_LIVE.pdf https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-0.... If you look at Slide 73, "my hard work will be rewarded" is one of the three questions that feeds into the "lack of hope" dimension. If you look at Slide 12, "lack of hope" is actually the least prevalent dimension of the analysis. Just 26% of people cited "lack of hope" as being "true for them." There are many clearer conclusions that could've been made from the data. For example, almost everyone in the world sees businesses as more competent and trustworthy than governments. If you look at Slides 39-40, trust in business is 58% globally, versus 49% for government. People trust business even more than the media, which is the same as government at 49%. (Slide 42.) Slide 52 shows that 52% of people list governments as "corrupt and biased" versus 38% for businesses. Slides 55-56 show that businesses in most countries are rated as at least competent, and in many are rated as ethical. Whereas government is listed as both incompetent and unethical in most countries. (Again, businesses outperform the media, slide 57.) As to the data about "capitalism"--generally, the polls on that question look very different when you use a question that explains what "capitalism" means: https://reason.com/2014/07/10/64-of-millennials-favor-a-free-market-ov https://reason.com/2014/07/10/64-of-millennials-favor-a-free.... In the U.S., for example, millennials prefer "free markets" to "a government-managed economy" 2:1. See also: https://acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/05/23/great-news-even-socialists-love-free-market-poll https://acton.org/publications/transatlantic/2019/05/23/grea... > The poll shows that Americans trust the “free market” to be in charge of nearly every facet of society, including “the distribution of wealth” (by 40 percentage points), wages (27 points), and “the economy overall” (29 points). Internationally, overwhelming majorities of people in emerging and developing countries "agree" with the statement: "most people are better off in a free market economy, even though some people are rich and some are poor." https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/4hP0Ux5fnuZfwOvqn7SnjS-oZac=/1400x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3665018/Inequality-01.png https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/4hP0Ux5fnuZfwOvqn7SnjS-oZac=...

bostonvaulter2 7y ago

> Despite strong economic performance, a majority of respondents in every developed market do not believe they will be better off in five years' time. This is because the economy is no longer working for the average/median American. Unemployment may be at record lows, but this is missing the point and is NOT the right number to be focusing on. This number does not capture all those people who have given up on working altogether and instead filed for disability and have given up hope. One way that we know this is that the suicide rate is at a record high and the average life expectancy for America is actually declining (which is very uncommon for a developed country)

RickJWagner 7y ago

Houses are nicer than they used to be. Cars, too. We are living longer, and are more active into old age. Smart phones provide communications, information, and entertainment we could only dream of 15 years ago. People in general are more prosperous than we used to be. Maybe not in some aspects, but most certainly overall.

HelgaM 7y ago

I don't agree with that

qmmmur 7y ago

Pretty easy conclusion to come to given the observably lazy people who are incredibly successful and don't have to worry about food/rent.