8 ms·

German Club St. Pauli Badge on UK Anti-Terrorism Guide Under 'Left Wing Signs'

46 points by notkaiho 7y ago

milsebg 7y ago
The "Badge" is essentially resembling a pirate flag (white skull with crossed bones on black background). Hamburg, of which St. Pauli is a nation-wide well-known area often in the media because it's red light district and its most known police station, is also traditionally a hot spot of militant antifa scene. In 2017 the antifa turned that city into a burning hell looking like civil war area. If that would not be enough, there is a building squatted since 1989 by far left scene. So, it is not that counter-intuitive to associate fans of Germany's most violent soccer club with the far left scene of that city...
- lispm 7y ago
  > Germany's most violent soccer club That's nonsense. St.Pauli isn't a particular violent soccer club. Far from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gkqL0I20sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gkqL0I20sI https://youtu.be/FzhEt7VXS_c https://youtu.be/FzhEt7VXS_c They even visited their fans in the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGWzx9TUIo8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGWzx9TUIo8 According to the New York Times they have the world's coolest Kindergarten: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/sports/soccer/welcome-to-the-worlds-coolest-kindergarten.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/sports/soccer/welcome-to-... > its most known police station Paul McCartney spent a night there, when the Beatles started their music career in Hamburg St. Pauli. https://www.beatlesbible.com/1960/11/29/paul-mccartney-pete-best-arrested-hamburg/ https://www.beatlesbible.com/1960/11/29/paul-mccartney-pete-...
- kome 7y ago
  Please...
- TekMol 7y ago
  there is a building squatted since 1989 by far left scene Which building would that be?
  - Tomte 7y ago
    Rote Flora.
  - h4kor 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_Flora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_Flora
    - virtualritz 7y ago
      Probably that's what patent was referring to. How this is related to the St. Pauli soccer club eludes me though. Caveat: I was born and grew up in Hamburg.
      - notkaiho 7y ago
        The parent post equated club supporters and "militant antifa" with the perpetrators of violence and "if that were not enough" presented the continued squatting as an example of undesirable behavior.
      - westpfelia 7y ago
        Anything to tear it down maybe? I dont know, I lived in Hamburg for 2 years and loved it. In fact I should move back...
- notkaiho 7y ago
  > "Germany's most violent soccer club" In 2009, they became the first club in Germany to adopt a set of guiding principles by passing a resolution the club's AGM. These values include social responsibility and promoting the interests of members, employees, supporters and volunteers beyond the sphere of sport; tolerance and respect and social responsibility. The club is regularly involved in solidarity actions with a wide range of causes.[0] Such violent, wow. [0] https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/st-pauli-hamburg-cult-club-explained-max-kruse-reeperbahn-song-2-millerntor-475424.jsp https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/st-pauli-hambu... also linked above.
- bildung 7y ago
  > In 2017 the antifa turned that city into a burning hell looking like civil war area. This is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened. There were over 100k protesters, almost all peaceful, and about 15k police personel. That "burning hell" were just a few dozen burning cars, mosty police cars, and a few burning barricades. As the lawsuits are still ongoing, it isn't clear whether these were started by antifa or by fascists, who were also present, looked identical and have been accused of actual violence against the police. There are also accusations of agents provocateurs of the police itself, which isn't that improbable because the police also used that strategy during the G8 summit 2007. So the protests where almost completely peaceful. Although there was a bit material damage, it isn't clear who was responsible for it.
- sek 7y ago
  It's not the most violent soccer club by far. I saw a ranking and St. Pauli was on place 15, the first one being Frankfurt and the second Dynamo Dresden (what is a known right wing club). The club does a lot of social activism and most fans in Hamburg are pretty normal social democrats. You are not wrong that there is an overlap of St. Pauli fans and the left scene in Hamburg. It's not a stretch that a militant person from Hamburg would also be a fan of this club. That's about it and how it probably ended up on that list. Also the squatted building you are talking about is now owned by the city that basically allows its current use.
  - milsebg 7y ago
    > It's not a stretch that a militant person from Hamburg would also be a fan of this club. That's about it and how it probably ended up on that list. I am far away from accusing either the club or its fans as potential threats. It's just as you said: There is a visible overlap, this pirate flag ended on that list and that's it. The list we're talking about even puts not ban on that sign. It's just connects it to that milieu and that's it.
- ginko 7y ago
  Squatting is terrorism now?
Zenst 7y ago
Just read this - which gives a fair insight into the actual club origins and directions: https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/st-pauli-hamburg-cult-club-explained-max-kruse-reeperbahn-song-2-millerntor-475424.jsp https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/st-pauli-hambu... Though do note that the word "cult" is used often and would not be a stretch to see how an outsider to that culture would run-think in the wrong direction. But like the flag, which probably don't help the ignorant upon their perceptions.
- notkaiho 7y ago
  "cult" in that is used in the same way that "cult film" or "cult classic". Nothing to do with an actual cult.
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Exactly - why I said "Though do note that the word "cult" is used often and would not be a stretch to see how an outsider to that culture would run-think in the wrong direction. But like the flag, which probably don't help the ignorant upon their perceptions."
Jamwinner 7y ago
Violence against 'undesirables', what could go wrong? /s While I find the classification of hate/terror groups asinie even here (juggalos? Really?) this is clearly a group that ocassionally makes threats. Be lucky this ia just a guide for now. People in the USA have lost their kids because their favorite musical group was associated with asshats.
- makomk 7y ago
  This is clearly a group that makes more than just threats: https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/effigies-hooligans-and-violence-the-madness-of-the-hsv-v-st-pauli-hamburg-derby https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/effigies-hooligans-and... They're football hooligans, with everything that usually entails. ESPN are just being apologists for them because their violence is accompanied by the correct political ideas.
  - boomboomsubban 7y ago
    >This is clearly a group that makes more than just threats Right, 20-25 of them will also brawl with choreographers elsewhere in the city.
  - lispm 7y ago
    The article is mainly about the hooligans from the HSV, the local rival club. If you look at German soccer clubs, St.Pauli has no special hooligan problem. Slightly less than most.
kawsper 7y ago
Also named in the Prevent documents was Extinction Rebellion, you can view the whole document here: https://www.scribd.com/document/442388847/Counter-terrorism-policing?secret_password=P5YaNHBdFpVSfZDTBAVj https://www.scribd.com/document/442388847/Counter-terrorism-...
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  I didn't know St. Pauli had fans outside of Germany until I saw a large group of Brits on the train that were partying hard. You could hear them over great distances. I am not a real soccer fan, but due to proximity and clientele it is the club I would mostly align with and it notoriously shelters fans that don't take soccer too seriously. Soccer is known to have violent fans and this club is no exception, but I think there are far, far worse examples. St. Pauli notoriously has fans that are politically on the left, which is unusual for most soccer clubs. At least you get that impression if you read about violence around the sport. To be honest, this list seems like the usual ridiculous hysteria of counter-terrorism efforts that certainly caused more damage than a soccer club ever could. Maybe the protesters are onto something.
woodpanel 7y ago
St. Pauli Fan here. It should be clarified, that the sign isn't made illegal in the UK, but rather one possible indicator of many to look for, as a guidance for people unfamiliar with certain political scenes. Heck, even Greenpeace is on that list too, as well as "Atomkraft? Nein Danke", the sign of the German anti-nuclear-energy-movement. Being a fan since my family took me to their games as a kid, I have to admit, this list has some truth to it. The stadium is plastered with stickers bearing most of the adjacent signs. Not every FCSP fan is a left-wing extremist, but left-wing extremists wear their merch, even when not into football at all. Makes me think though, whether to take my merch with me the next time I travel into the UK.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Thank you for your insight +1 from me for that.
OJFord 7y ago
I found the submitted title impossible to parse before starting to understand the content of the body. I think it's not helped by Click-Bait Case, which HN seemed to recently start applying to submissions unless you go back and edit them to your original submission, at which point it accepts it. The following seems much easier to parse, (still not a great title, but that's not HN/submitter's problem) to me anyway: > German club St Pauli badge on UK anti-terrorism guide under 'Left wing signs'

46 points by notkaiho 7y ago

The "Badge" is essentially resembling a pirate flag (white skull with crossed bones on black background). Hamburg, of which St. Pauli is a nation-wide well-known area often in the media because it's red light district and its most known police station, is also traditionally a hot spot of militant antifa scene. In 2017 the antifa turned that city into a burning hell looking like civil war area. If that would not be enough, there is a building squatted since 1989 by far left scene. So, it is not that counter-intuitive to associate fans of Germany's most violent soccer club with the far left scene of that city...

lispm 7y ago
> Germany's most violent soccer club That's nonsense. St.Pauli isn't a particular violent soccer club. Far from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gkqL0I20sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gkqL0I20sI https://youtu.be/FzhEt7VXS_c https://youtu.be/FzhEt7VXS_c They even visited their fans in the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGWzx9TUIo8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGWzx9TUIo8 According to the New York Times they have the world's coolest Kindergarten: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/sports/soccer/welcome-to-the-worlds-coolest-kindergarten.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/sports/soccer/welcome-to-... > its most known police station Paul McCartney spent a night there, when the Beatles started their music career in Hamburg St. Pauli. https://www.beatlesbible.com/1960/11/29/paul-mccartney-pete-best-arrested-hamburg/ https://www.beatlesbible.com/1960/11/29/paul-mccartney-pete-...
kome 7y ago
Please...
TekMol 7y ago
there is a building squatted since 1989 by far left scene Which building would that be?
- Tomte 7y ago
  Rote Flora.
- h4kor 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_Flora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_Flora
  - virtualritz 7y ago
    Probably that's what patent was referring to. How this is related to the St. Pauli soccer club eludes me though. Caveat: I was born and grew up in Hamburg.
    - notkaiho 7y ago
      The parent post equated club supporters and "militant antifa" with the perpetrators of violence and "if that were not enough" presented the continued squatting as an example of undesirable behavior.
    - westpfelia 7y ago
      Anything to tear it down maybe? I dont know, I lived in Hamburg for 2 years and loved it. In fact I should move back...
notkaiho 7y ago
> "Germany's most violent soccer club" In 2009, they became the first club in Germany to adopt a set of guiding principles by passing a resolution the club's AGM. These values include social responsibility and promoting the interests of members, employees, supporters and volunteers beyond the sphere of sport; tolerance and respect and social responsibility. The club is regularly involved in solidarity actions with a wide range of causes.[0] Such violent, wow. [0] https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/st-pauli-hamburg-cult-club-explained-max-kruse-reeperbahn-song-2-millerntor-475424.jsp https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/st-pauli-hambu... also linked above.
bildung 7y ago
> In 2017 the antifa turned that city into a burning hell looking like civil war area. This is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened. There were over 100k protesters, almost all peaceful, and about 15k police personel. That "burning hell" were just a few dozen burning cars, mosty police cars, and a few burning barricades. As the lawsuits are still ongoing, it isn't clear whether these were started by antifa or by fascists, who were also present, looked identical and have been accused of actual violence against the police. There are also accusations of agents provocateurs of the police itself, which isn't that improbable because the police also used that strategy during the G8 summit 2007. So the protests where almost completely peaceful. Although there was a bit material damage, it isn't clear who was responsible for it.
sek 7y ago
It's not the most violent soccer club by far. I saw a ranking and St. Pauli was on place 15, the first one being Frankfurt and the second Dynamo Dresden (what is a known right wing club). The club does a lot of social activism and most fans in Hamburg are pretty normal social democrats. You are not wrong that there is an overlap of St. Pauli fans and the left scene in Hamburg. It's not a stretch that a militant person from Hamburg would also be a fan of this club. That's about it and how it probably ended up on that list. Also the squatted building you are talking about is now owned by the city that basically allows its current use.
- milsebg 7y ago
  > It's not a stretch that a militant person from Hamburg would also be a fan of this club. That's about it and how it probably ended up on that list. I am far away from accusing either the club or its fans as potential threats. It's just as you said: There is a visible overlap, this pirate flag ended on that list and that's it. The list we're talking about even puts not ban on that sign. It's just connects it to that milieu and that's it.
ginko 7y ago
Squatting is terrorism now?

Zenst 7y ago

Just read this - which gives a fair insight into the actual club origins and directions: https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/st-pauli-hamburg-cult-club-explained-max-kruse-reeperbahn-song-2-millerntor-475424.jsp https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/st-pauli-hambu... Though do note that the word "cult" is used often and would not be a stretch to see how an outsider to that culture would run-think in the wrong direction. But like the flag, which probably don't help the ignorant upon their perceptions.

notkaiho 7y ago
"cult" in that is used in the same way that "cult film" or "cult classic". Nothing to do with an actual cult.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Exactly - why I said "Though do note that the word "cult" is used often and would not be a stretch to see how an outsider to that culture would run-think in the wrong direction. But like the flag, which probably don't help the ignorant upon their perceptions."

Jamwinner 7y ago

Violence against 'undesirables', what could go wrong? /s While I find the classification of hate/terror groups asinie even here (juggalos? Really?) this is clearly a group that ocassionally makes threats. Be lucky this ia just a guide for now. People in the USA have lost their kids because their favorite musical group was associated with asshats.

makomk 7y ago
This is clearly a group that makes more than just threats: https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/effigies-hooligans-and-violence-the-madness-of-the-hsv-v-st-pauli-hamburg-derby https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/effigies-hooligans-and... They're football hooligans, with everything that usually entails. ESPN are just being apologists for them because their violence is accompanied by the correct political ideas.
- boomboomsubban 7y ago
  >This is clearly a group that makes more than just threats Right, 20-25 of them will also brawl with choreographers elsewhere in the city.
- lispm 7y ago
  The article is mainly about the hooligans from the HSV, the local rival club. If you look at German soccer clubs, St.Pauli has no special hooligan problem. Slightly less than most.

kawsper 7y ago

Also named in the Prevent documents was Extinction Rebellion, you can view the whole document here: https://www.scribd.com/document/442388847/Counter-terrorism-policing?secret_password=P5YaNHBdFpVSfZDTBAVj https://www.scribd.com/document/442388847/Counter-terrorism-...

raxxorrax 7y ago
I didn't know St. Pauli had fans outside of Germany until I saw a large group of Brits on the train that were partying hard. You could hear them over great distances. I am not a real soccer fan, but due to proximity and clientele it is the club I would mostly align with and it notoriously shelters fans that don't take soccer too seriously. Soccer is known to have violent fans and this club is no exception, but I think there are far, far worse examples. St. Pauli notoriously has fans that are politically on the left, which is unusual for most soccer clubs. At least you get that impression if you read about violence around the sport. To be honest, this list seems like the usual ridiculous hysteria of counter-terrorism efforts that certainly caused more damage than a soccer club ever could. Maybe the protesters are onto something.

woodpanel 7y ago

St. Pauli Fan here. It should be clarified, that the sign isn't made illegal in the UK, but rather one possible indicator of many to look for, as a guidance for people unfamiliar with certain political scenes. Heck, even Greenpeace is on that list too, as well as "Atomkraft? Nein Danke", the sign of the German anti-nuclear-energy-movement. Being a fan since my family took me to their games as a kid, I have to admit, this list has some truth to it. The stadium is plastered with stickers bearing most of the adjacent signs. Not every FCSP fan is a left-wing extremist, but left-wing extremists wear their merch, even when not into football at all. Makes me think though, whether to take my merch with me the next time I travel into the UK.

Zenst 7y ago
Thank you for your insight +1 from me for that.

OJFord 7y ago

I found the submitted title impossible to parse before starting to understand the content of the body. I think it's not helped by Click-Bait Case, which HN seemed to recently start applying to submissions unless you go back and edit them to your original submission, at which point it accepts it. The following seems much easier to parse, (still not a great title, but that's not HN/submitter's problem) to me anyway: > German club St Pauli badge on UK anti-terrorism guide under 'Left wing signs'