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Mostly self selection. This data is -extremely- off. Who is most likely worried about their salary, or most likely to search about it and compare? If I had t

by axaxs 7y ago

Mostly self selection. This data is -extremely- off. Who is most likely worried about their salary, or most likely to search about it and compare? If I had to guess, the median salary for a software engineer in the USA is about 100k. For 15 years experience, probably about 150k. Yes, you might make 200k in the valley sharing an apartment, but for every one of those are three in Salt Lake City, Denver, Dallas, etc who are content with much less. Most software engineers in the US don't take this survey. The ones who do have something to prove.

Pfhreak 7y ago
> The ones who do have something to prove. Or they care about the common good, and believe by sharing their salaries they can provide some data to help out their fellow workers.
- axaxs 7y ago
  Sorry, I agree with you. I absolutely think that salaries should be open, and shared. That said, what I meant was who is most likely to be talking about their salary. A guy in SLC making 100k at a no name company, happy with his situation. Or a guy making 200k in the valley, unable to afford his own house? There's two issues at play that make the second person more likely. One is competition, as he can find a new job at any time. The other is inadequacy I guess you call it, because he feels he's not making enough.
- rexpop 7y ago
  > Or they care about the common good, and believe by sharing their salaries they can provide some data to help out their fellow workers. Sounds like the definition of "something to prove."
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    That's a pretty cynical take. Sometimes people do what they think is right independent of whether they think they'll ever get credit for it.
    - rexpop 7y ago
      Maybe I am confused about the idiom "something to prove." Does it necessarily mean "something to prove [about their own name]?" I thought it might also mean "something to prove about [a group]."
- DarthGhandi 7y ago
  Quite sure in Nordic countries everyone's salary is public data you can search.
  - FartyMcFarter 7y ago
    Probably total income rather than salary?
Dig1t 7y ago
200k is low for a mid level engineer in the valley, and I'd have trouble believing there are more engineers elsewhere than here. tbh I'd love to see some numbers for how software engineers are distributed across the country.
- axaxs 7y ago
  Do more research. There are software engineers everywhere. Tulsa, Omaha, Dallas, Phoenix, Houston, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Atlanta, Miami... I'm just naming a few. If you think the bay area has more engineers than those cities combined, you're sorely mistaken. Northern VA has about as many engineers by itself to counterbalance the bay area...
  - pmiller2 7y ago
    Certainly not more engineers than all those places combined, but almost certainly the Bay Area has more engineers than any one of those places individually, and probably a higher concentration of them as well.
    - PeterisP 7y ago
      The whole state of California has about 14% of USA developers. So whatever the Bay Area is earning does not have that much of an impact on the nationwide average.
      - pmiller2 7y ago
        Not directly, but more in an “I can work in BFE nowhere for $X or the Bay Area for $2X” sort of thing for those capable of putting up with the bullshit interview processed. Even with cost of living, it often works out better in the Bay Area.
        axaxs 7y ago
        Financially, absolutely. Much better in the valley, in fact. But there are a lot of intangibles. For example, I appreciate being able to go to the beach every day, swim, collect sea shells with my daughter, and spending more time with her and my wife in general. That is uniquely afforded to me by working remote for a salary substantially less than if I were in the bay. If I were 20 again and single, I'd probably really consider it. But any older than that and I see it as a net negative, despite the salary. No amount of money buys you back time in the prime of your life. It may buy you time later, though. Things to consider...
eldavido 7y ago
It's frankly crazy that software people make only 100K. Yes, I know the industry is huge, and has many different areas and levels of difficulty, and required skill. But it's nuts that people don't bat an eye paying even a mediocre lawyer $200 or $300/hr (my dumb-ass condo lawyer charges $365/hr) and somehow software engineers, who have to do crazy feats of applied math, manage absurd levels of complexity, deal with ridiculous deadlines, and work on increasingly critical pieces of the global economy, work for the equivalent of $50-60/hr. This can't go on, it seems only natural that pay is going to keep going up, especially when people realize how hard and complicated this stuff is, and how much demand for it there is, in terms of how much power and competitiveness it gives businesses, and how relatively few people can really do it at even a passable level. My property manager quoted me $90/hr to change a lightbulb. My jaw almost hit the floor.
- madengr 7y ago
  Your answer is in your question: “global economy”. That lawyer is licensed in his state. Software can be written in a 3rd world country. Why is it that these high $ software jobs in CA have not been outsourced to India?
- axaxs 7y ago
  It's in waves. These dime a dozen boot camps are turning out some really awful programmers, and I have the displeasure of working with a lot of them. If there is a real wave of 'we want people who understand what they're doing', salaries will be through the roof. But in today's climate, those boot camp folks do fine.
- wutbrodo 7y ago
  > t's nuts that people don't bat an eye paying even a mediocre lawyer $200 or $300/hr (my dumb-ass condo lawyer charges $365/hr) and somehow software engineers, who have to do crazy feats of applied math, manage absurd levels of complexity, deal with ridiculous deadlines, and work on increasingly critical pieces of the global economy, work for the equivalent of $50-60/hr. This isn't mysterious: the legal profession is controlled by a corrupt guild engaged in regulatory capture, while engineering is more or less an entirely free labor market.
pmiller2 7y ago
Or, you could make $200k living in the East Bay by yourself, paying ~1/2 of SF rent with 5-6 YoE. That’s my situation, and I’m not an amazing engineer, merely average IMO.
thrwaway69 7y ago
68k. Other reports closer to what you estimate. What exactly is a software engineer? Someone who writes code? Someone with CS degree? All the sources I have found seems to make software engineering just too broad of a bubble to measure. 1] https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/software-engineer-i-salary https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/software-en...
lonelappde 7y ago
Why is your uninformed guess better than data?

by axaxs 7y ago

Pfhreak 7y ago

> The ones who do have something to prove. Or they care about the common good, and believe by sharing their salaries they can provide some data to help out their fellow workers.

axaxs 7y ago
Sorry, I agree with you. I absolutely think that salaries should be open, and shared. That said, what I meant was who is most likely to be talking about their salary. A guy in SLC making 100k at a no name company, happy with his situation. Or a guy making 200k in the valley, unable to afford his own house? There's two issues at play that make the second person more likely. One is competition, as he can find a new job at any time. The other is inadequacy I guess you call it, because he feels he's not making enough.
rexpop 7y ago
> Or they care about the common good, and believe by sharing their salaries they can provide some data to help out their fellow workers. Sounds like the definition of "something to prove."
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  That's a pretty cynical take. Sometimes people do what they think is right independent of whether they think they'll ever get credit for it.
  - rexpop 7y ago
    Maybe I am confused about the idiom "something to prove." Does it necessarily mean "something to prove [about their own name]?" I thought it might also mean "something to prove about [a group]."
DarthGhandi 7y ago
Quite sure in Nordic countries everyone's salary is public data you can search.
- FartyMcFarter 7y ago
  Probably total income rather than salary?

Dig1t 7y ago

200k is low for a mid level engineer in the valley, and I'd have trouble believing there are more engineers elsewhere than here. tbh I'd love to see some numbers for how software engineers are distributed across the country.

axaxs 7y ago
Do more research. There are software engineers everywhere. Tulsa, Omaha, Dallas, Phoenix, Houston, Pittsburgh, Louisville, Atlanta, Miami... I'm just naming a few. If you think the bay area has more engineers than those cities combined, you're sorely mistaken. Northern VA has about as many engineers by itself to counterbalance the bay area...
- pmiller2 7y ago
  Certainly not more engineers than all those places combined, but almost certainly the Bay Area has more engineers than any one of those places individually, and probably a higher concentration of them as well.
  - PeterisP 7y ago
    The whole state of California has about 14% of USA developers. So whatever the Bay Area is earning does not have that much of an impact on the nationwide average.
    - pmiller2 7y ago
      Not directly, but more in an “I can work in BFE nowhere for $X or the Bay Area for $2X” sort of thing for those capable of putting up with the bullshit interview processed. Even with cost of living, it often works out better in the Bay Area.
      - axaxs 7y ago
        Financially, absolutely. Much better in the valley, in fact. But there are a lot of intangibles. For example, I appreciate being able to go to the beach every day, swim, collect sea shells with my daughter, and spending more time with her and my wife in general. That is uniquely afforded to me by working remote for a salary substantially less than if I were in the bay. If I were 20 again and single, I'd probably really consider it. But any older than that and I see it as a net negative, despite the salary. No amount of money buys you back time in the prime of your life. It may buy you time later, though. Things to consider...

eldavido 7y ago

It's frankly crazy that software people make only 100K. Yes, I know the industry is huge, and has many different areas and levels of difficulty, and required skill. But it's nuts that people don't bat an eye paying even a mediocre lawyer $200 or $300/hr (my dumb-ass condo lawyer charges $365/hr) and somehow software engineers, who have to do crazy feats of applied math, manage absurd levels of complexity, deal with ridiculous deadlines, and work on increasingly critical pieces of the global economy, work for the equivalent of $50-60/hr. This can't go on, it seems only natural that pay is going to keep going up, especially when people realize how hard and complicated this stuff is, and how much demand for it there is, in terms of how much power and competitiveness it gives businesses, and how relatively few people can really do it at even a passable level. My property manager quoted me $90/hr to change a lightbulb. My jaw almost hit the floor.

madengr 7y ago
Your answer is in your question: “global economy”. That lawyer is licensed in his state. Software can be written in a 3rd world country. Why is it that these high $ software jobs in CA have not been outsourced to India?
axaxs 7y ago
It's in waves. These dime a dozen boot camps are turning out some really awful programmers, and I have the displeasure of working with a lot of them. If there is a real wave of 'we want people who understand what they're doing', salaries will be through the roof. But in today's climate, those boot camp folks do fine.
wutbrodo 7y ago
> t's nuts that people don't bat an eye paying even a mediocre lawyer $200 or $300/hr (my dumb-ass condo lawyer charges $365/hr) and somehow software engineers, who have to do crazy feats of applied math, manage absurd levels of complexity, deal with ridiculous deadlines, and work on increasingly critical pieces of the global economy, work for the equivalent of $50-60/hr. This isn't mysterious: the legal profession is controlled by a corrupt guild engaged in regulatory capture, while engineering is more or less an entirely free labor market.

pmiller2 7y ago

Or, you could make $200k living in the East Bay by yourself, paying ~1/2 of SF rent with 5-6 YoE. That’s my situation, and I’m not an amazing engineer, merely average IMO.

thrwaway69 7y ago

68k. Other reports closer to what you estimate. What exactly is a software engineer? Someone who writes code? Someone with CS degree? All the sources I have found seems to make software engineering just too broad of a bubble to measure. 1] https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/software-engineer-i-salary https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/software-en...

lonelappde 7y ago

Why is your uninformed guess better than data?