6 ms·

I'd understand avoiding a city that has these policies, but avoiding the whole country because of bigoted decisions in other municipalities strikes me as strang

I'd understand avoiding a city that has these policies, but avoiding the whole country because of bigoted decisions in other municipalities strikes me as strange thinking. It's not like every Polish person is in support. If you live in Poland and some municipalities (not even yours) passes discriminating rules, what can you do? Move? Are we suddenly implicitly supporting every dumb shit done by people that are in some way or other similar to us? It's absurd.

marcinzm 7y ago
You can vote for national politicians who make laws to make such municipal decisions illegal. Welcome to democratic society.
rsynnott 7y ago
They’re supported by the national ruling party. As a gay person I wouldn’t currently be particularly enthusiastic about going to Poland. I’ve also heard of gay married couples from EU countries (ie having an effective automatic right of admission) having trouble at airport border control.
- llukas 7y ago
  There is no border control within Schengen zone.
  - djsumdog 7y ago
    They said airport, so they probably flew in from outside the Schengen zone (US, UK, Asia, etc.)
    - klez 7y ago
      > from EU countries Not really.
      - seba_dos1 7y ago
        There are EU countries that are not in Schengen (although the most notable one is about to leave).
        klez 7y ago
        TIL four EU countries (plus three micro-states, but they have open borders) are outside the Schengen area. So I stand corrected. But I see that they are all expected to enter the agreement. Does anyone know how long this will take? Romania and Bulgaria have been members for close to 13 years. What's taking so long?
        rsynnott 7y ago
        Ireland and the UK have indefinite opt outs. Historically the common travel area with the UK made it impractical for Ireland to join unless the UK did too. It’s plausible that Ireland will join in the future, depending on what happens with Northern Ireland post Brexit.
  - Polyisoprene 7y ago
    Sure there is. They have checked my id on about half of the arrivals the last years.
    - tialaramex 7y ago
      Participating countries are allowed to check your identity documents at a Schengen border in order to confirm that you are entitled to cross it without any other steps. They're even allowed to record that you crossed, using the ID to track who you were (and Poland does), though they aren't allowed to record that on a passport or similar travel document. Having confirmed you're an EU citizen who isn't subject to an arrest warrant you're entitled to cross the border and there are no other checks permitted. They aren't entitled to ask you to explain where you're going or why or anything like that. There's a similar internal border not far from me at the local airport. There's a painted line and it has a nice sign which explains that they don't actually have any officials present at the border, but if you don't have documentation allowing you to cross or if you've arrived with products that are prohibited you can phone them, they'll send somebody over in a few hours to interrogate and if necessary arrest you. There's a phone provided, it looks pretty dusty. I guess it's possible that people decide not to call?
      - Polyisoprene 7y ago
        They are still allowed to have police present at the internal border and checking both your id, itinerary and asking questions about your visit as long as it’s not “systematic”.
  - rsynnott 7y ago
    I’m Irish; we’re not in Schengen (conflicts with the CTA).
- belorn 7y ago
  XDC2017 was located in the US which has an infamous situation in regard it its airport border control, with people being denied entry or detailed without explanations. I also know people who in 2017 (and still are) refusing to travel to the US because of those issues. With the demands for unlocking encrypted computers, password to social media accounts, secret black lists, and profiling, there is a lot of to be worried about. Maybe they should just do as fosdem and always have it in Belgium.
0xcde4c3db 7y ago
I've only skimmed a few articles about the issue, but it seems like this isn't just a matter of a handful of municipalities acting independently, but rather those declarations are tied into a broader push by the national ruling party to make LGBT people its political bogeyman du jour. Politicians have made a bunch of statements to the effect that LGBT is a foreign ideology that seeks to sexualize children and represents a threat to Polish identity.
- jacekm 7y ago
  Polish person here. Yes, the ruling party caters to ultra-catholic, right-winged people. While there are many people in Poland who don't understand LGBT and are therefore scared of it, they are a minority. We have a trans woman in parliament and a gay guy running for presidency. It's not that bad really. Moreover, Gdańsk, where the conference was supposed to take place is actually one of the most tolerant and liberal cities in Poland with very open-minded people. It would be a shame to punish them for actions of the government and municipalities that are literally on the other side of the country.
  - ginko 7y ago
    It also seems exactly like what these ultra-conservatives would want: Keep LGBT people outside of Poland.
  - djsumdog 7y ago
    Thanks for that insight. It seems sad to be fearful of an entire country because of a few municipalities; especially when you say there are minorities represented in government. All over Europe, there are a lot of people who have varying opinions about immigration, refugees, LGBT-rights, Brexit, climate change and other controversial subjects. Rejecting an entire nation as a conference location because some percentage of the population has gotten some press for their controversial opinion seems very reactionary.
  - youdontknowtho 7y ago
    Right, but the loss of revenue from conference attendees is something that can be used as leverage against the politicians. The same thing was done in the US to push back on anti-lgbt laws. It has had some successes. It's not perfect but it has its purposes.
_red 7y ago
This is why many of us were concerned about the whole effort of every project to try to be more woke than the next through increasing CoC signaling. Purity spirals are the inevitable outcome.

marcinzm 7y ago

You can vote for national politicians who make laws to make such municipal decisions illegal. Welcome to democratic society.

rsynnott 7y ago

They’re supported by the national ruling party. As a gay person I wouldn’t currently be particularly enthusiastic about going to Poland. I’ve also heard of gay married couples from EU countries (ie having an effective automatic right of admission) having trouble at airport border control.

llukas 7y ago
There is no border control within Schengen zone.
- djsumdog 7y ago
  They said airport, so they probably flew in from outside the Schengen zone (US, UK, Asia, etc.)
  - klez 7y ago
    > from EU countries Not really.
    - seba_dos1 7y ago
      There are EU countries that are not in Schengen (although the most notable one is about to leave).
      - klez 7y ago
        TIL four EU countries (plus three micro-states, but they have open borders) are outside the Schengen area. So I stand corrected. But I see that they are all expected to enter the agreement. Does anyone know how long this will take? Romania and Bulgaria have been members for close to 13 years. What's taking so long?
        rsynnott 7y ago
        Ireland and the UK have indefinite opt outs. Historically the common travel area with the UK made it impractical for Ireland to join unless the UK did too. It’s plausible that Ireland will join in the future, depending on what happens with Northern Ireland post Brexit.
- Polyisoprene 7y ago
  Sure there is. They have checked my id on about half of the arrivals the last years.
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    Participating countries are allowed to check your identity documents at a Schengen border in order to confirm that you are entitled to cross it without any other steps. They're even allowed to record that you crossed, using the ID to track who you were (and Poland does), though they aren't allowed to record that on a passport or similar travel document. Having confirmed you're an EU citizen who isn't subject to an arrest warrant you're entitled to cross the border and there are no other checks permitted. They aren't entitled to ask you to explain where you're going or why or anything like that. There's a similar internal border not far from me at the local airport. There's a painted line and it has a nice sign which explains that they don't actually have any officials present at the border, but if you don't have documentation allowing you to cross or if you've arrived with products that are prohibited you can phone them, they'll send somebody over in a few hours to interrogate and if necessary arrest you. There's a phone provided, it looks pretty dusty. I guess it's possible that people decide not to call?
    - Polyisoprene 7y ago
      They are still allowed to have police present at the internal border and checking both your id, itinerary and asking questions about your visit as long as it’s not “systematic”.
- rsynnott 7y ago
  I’m Irish; we’re not in Schengen (conflicts with the CTA).
belorn 7y ago
XDC2017 was located in the US which has an infamous situation in regard it its airport border control, with people being denied entry or detailed without explanations. I also know people who in 2017 (and still are) refusing to travel to the US because of those issues. With the demands for unlocking encrypted computers, password to social media accounts, secret black lists, and profiling, there is a lot of to be worried about. Maybe they should just do as fosdem and always have it in Belgium.

0xcde4c3db 7y ago

I've only skimmed a few articles about the issue, but it seems like this isn't just a matter of a handful of municipalities acting independently, but rather those declarations are tied into a broader push by the national ruling party to make LGBT people its political bogeyman du jour. Politicians have made a bunch of statements to the effect that LGBT is a foreign ideology that seeks to sexualize children and represents a threat to Polish identity.

jacekm 7y ago
Polish person here. Yes, the ruling party caters to ultra-catholic, right-winged people. While there are many people in Poland who don't understand LGBT and are therefore scared of it, they are a minority. We have a trans woman in parliament and a gay guy running for presidency. It's not that bad really. Moreover, Gdańsk, where the conference was supposed to take place is actually one of the most tolerant and liberal cities in Poland with very open-minded people. It would be a shame to punish them for actions of the government and municipalities that are literally on the other side of the country.
- ginko 7y ago
  It also seems exactly like what these ultra-conservatives would want: Keep LGBT people outside of Poland.
- djsumdog 7y ago
  Thanks for that insight. It seems sad to be fearful of an entire country because of a few municipalities; especially when you say there are minorities represented in government. All over Europe, there are a lot of people who have varying opinions about immigration, refugees, LGBT-rights, Brexit, climate change and other controversial subjects. Rejecting an entire nation as a conference location because some percentage of the population has gotten some press for their controversial opinion seems very reactionary.
- youdontknowtho 7y ago
  Right, but the loss of revenue from conference attendees is something that can be used as leverage against the politicians. The same thing was done in the US to push back on anti-lgbt laws. It has had some successes. It's not perfect but it has its purposes.

_red 7y ago

This is why many of us were concerned about the whole effort of every project to try to be more woke than the next through increasing CoC signaling. Purity spirals are the inevitable outcome.