11 ms·

This is pretty big news. That is the biggest c++2a feature I want to use.

by g82918 7y ago

beyondCritics 7y ago
Me too. It's a lot of fun coming.
- g82918 7y ago
  I am working on a red-green threading on Linux, what interests you?
gigatexal 7y ago
But no concepts, no const expr, or use of auto at least according to cppreference
- LessDmesg 7y ago
  It's no wonder. C++ is deeply and irreparably broken, yet instead of fixing anything they just pile up more features in an effort to compete with Rust and Go. Modern C++ is like a 19th century horse carriage with a big subwoofer (but you have to bring a bunch of 9V batteries), huge hot-rod wheels (but no amortization so don't even think about going above 20 kmh) and an airplane engine from Rolls-Royce (which is there for the sake of heating only).
  - imron 7y ago
    > yet instead of fixing anything they just pile up more features in an effort to compete with Rust and Go I used to be a C++ diehard, but modern C++ is why I started learning Rust. If I'm going to have to learn a whole bunch of new idioms and rules, I might as well do it with a language that has the new features and safety built-in, rather than bolted on.
    - rumanator 7y ago
      > I used to be a C++ diehard, but modern C++ is why I started learning Rust. If I'm going to have to learn a whole bunch of new idioms and rules You don't. Just because you bump a version number it doesn't mean you are forced to use all the bells and whistles.
      - Rizz 7y ago
        That stops working once you're no longer a solo developer, but part of a team, then you need to learn everything any of your fellow developers might use. You might as well focus on learning a new language and having access to new jobs where you don't have to deal with legacy languages.
        rumanator 7y ago
        > That stops working once you're no longer a solo developer It doesn't. If you have any experience working on C++ projects you will be very aware that deciding which feature is and is not used is the kind of stuff which is defined in the project's coding guidelines docs, along with naming conventions and choice of build system. With C++ you only have to use a feature introduced after C++11 if you decide you really want to use it. Some projects even in this very day still don't use smart pointers or exceptionsor std::array. Some people still do the old C with classes thing. Moreover, the world does not come to an end if you arrive at a project and need to learn a feature provided by a programming language.
        cowsandmilk 7y ago
        > If you have any experience working on C++ projects you will be very aware that deciding which feature is and is not used is the kind of stuff which is defined in the project's coding guidelines And you will find that you have to learn these features once they are allowed in the guidelines. Some workplaces stick to the old features. Some regularly update with pushes toward use of modern features. When your coding guidelines prefer modern C++, you have to learn it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dgellow 7y ago
    > in an effort to compete with Rust and Go I think that you overestimate how much Go and Rust are used in the wild, and how much of a threat they are to the C++ ecosystem. IMHO C++ is mainly competing with its own past.
    - throwaway17_17 7y ago
      I genuinely believe statements like GP’s are a result of living in a cutting-edge tech bubble, not necessarily SV, but online hype and discussion based reality. Sure several large impactful projects use Go and a few companies are dabbling in using Rust. However, the number of these usages is dwarfed into near statistical irrelevance by the amount of C++ code in active production and usage (it is even more irrelevant if you count programs written in C). That is not to say there is nothing good or beneficial about these languages, devs using them are free to evaluate the features provided and find that they suit their use case and go get to work. But some dev’s pet language, no matter how loudly they scream on Reddit and HN, is not yet threatening C++.
      - Darvon 7y ago
        I can't imagine a real world robotic assembly line in 2020 not using c/c++ indefinitely. Doesn't matter how cool the new language is, what people really want is to not have to rewrite that dependency they're still using from 1998.
  - simias 7y ago
    You can't fix C++ because the only thing there is to fix is to get rid of all the legacy baggage but doing that would break backwards compatibility (including probably compatibility with C) which means that it's not C++ anymore. "Fixed" C++, per your description, already exists. It's called D. It's called Rust. It's called C#. It's called Go. Meanwhile there appear to be many people who (I must admit much to my puzzlement) seem to still enjoy writing C++ and want to add even more features and paradigms to it. I wish them good luck and I'll be sure to look at the results from afar and see if I can recognize some bits of the C++ I used to write 15 years ago. Oh! I think I saw an "if"!
    - blub 7y ago
      "It's called D. It's called Rust. It's called C#. It's called Go" All of these languages with the exception of D are completely different. It's like saying you fixed a cupboard by replacing it with a sofa. D's the most similar, but it's sadly not exactly a hot language or one where there's jobs available.
      - bluejekyll 7y ago
        Was the cupboard being used as a sofa?
    - The_rationalist 7y ago
      * rid of all the legacy baggage * It keeps being repeated over and over but where can I find such a list? There's almost no misfeature in c++. It's issues are just the fact it's too low level / manual.
      - 72deluxe 7y ago
        How is it too manual compared to eg C# where I need to implement IDisposable and wrap use of variables in "using" to really ensure something is cleaned up when I want it cleaned up (without risky memory ballooning relying on the GC)? C++ destructors to clean up your resources are really neat. And deterministic - you know when stuff is going to get cleaned up. Or was it some other "manual" feature that's too much of a burden? Honestly curious.
  - 72deluxe 7y ago
    In what way is C++ "deeply" broken? I seem to be using it daily with no problem, as does the rest of the world. I manage to use applications and operating systems where vast portions of it are written in C++ without problems - what problems are you having? Honestly, it's dead easy to criticise but you must be using the product of another language if you feel so strongly about this...? Tell me, which browser and operating system are you using to write this comment? It must be one written in something other than C++, right? Your browser isn't using WebKit or Blink by any chance is it?? Let's hope the web server or network appliances used to transfer the data to you are not using software written using this "deeply broken" language!
    - jefftk 7y ago
      I mostly agree with you, but operating systems and web servers are generally written in C and not C++. For example Linux, (the vast majority of) GNU, Apache, and Nginx are all C. (Though I expect your parent has similarly negative views on C?)
      - 72deluxe 7y ago
        You are correct, thanks. My comment comes across as very irritated, but it's the same argument that will continue to the end of time I guess - "this tried, tested and widely used language is broken because it is not language $x and because it lacks this edge-case invented usage scenario even though it works adequately for 99.9% of all other scenarios as demonstrated by decades of use". It's wearying. Sure, C++ is complicated but so is English! I thought nginx was C++? I also thought large portions of Windows are C++? Everybody loves COM!
        jefftk 7y ago
        Nginx is C, and the authors really don't like C++. (I used to work on ngx_pagespeed, which was a C++ server module that plugged into Nginx to rewrite pages so they would load faster.)
        72deluxe 7y ago
  - bouncycastle 7y ago
    > an airplane engine from Rolls-Royce RR makes excellent aircraft engines, for both Boeing and Airbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Trent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Trent
    - gerikson 7y ago
      In addition, Rolls-Royce cars are made by BMW now, who also make quite good engines.
      - bouncycastle 7y ago
        Correct. RR doesn't make cars anymore, it's only just a badge. Also, RR is dominating the marine propulsion sector, these engines are some of the largest in the world!
        gerikson 7y ago
        This I did not know, interesting!
  - endorphone 7y ago
    "yet instead of fixing anything they just pile up more features in an effort to compete with Rust and Go" Alternately they're iteratively evolving the language as each generation of features are fleshed out? They've been doing this for several decades now. It's their job. And for those people using C++ tooling, or working on C++ projects: Cool, new stuff to ease some edge conditions.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    As much as I like Rust, progress usually comes in progressive changes, not with big bangs. Modern C++ is already a large improvement over C, which was already a 19th century carriage, when everyone was moving into steam cars.
    - tsimionescu 7y ago
      Unfortunately, modern C++ still includes (the vast majority of) C, both in theory and in practice in many code bases around the world.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Indeed, and it is its Achilles tendon, once its Trojan horse for adoption, nowadays the source of security headaches. However, I don't see many companies throwing away their IDEs, game engines, build systems just like that. It is easier to migrate those teams to static analysis tooling, than throwing it all away and start from scratch in another ecosystem. Hence why both Microsoft and Google are still two major contributors to ISO C++, in spite of being in the process of adopting Rust.
        stjohnswarts 7y ago
        Can you point out where Google and Microsoft are moving to Rust because I've seen none of that.
        steveklabnik 7y ago
        “Moving to rust” is too strong; they are both adopting Rust for real, production use cases. I’ll give you one example of each: Google is using Rust in ChromeOS, at the virtualization later, and Microsoft is using ripgrep to power the search for VS: Code. There’s more than just that but those are the two easiest things to point to.
- jcelerier 7y ago
  > https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html seems more up to date than cppreference
  - gigatexal 7y ago
    No I meant that from cppreference using coroutines means you can’t use the features I mentioned not that those features don’t exist in c++20
- nemetroid 7y ago
  The concepts part I'm not sure about, but the other parts don't look so bad. According to cppreference.com[0]: > Coroutines cannot use variadic arguments, plain return statements, or placeholder return types (auto or Concept). > variadic arguments For the purposes of creating variadic functions, variadic templates are the preferred solution, since variadic arguments have a number of drawbacks (e.g. unavoidable type promotions). > plain return statements This is the definition of C++ coroutines, more or less. > placeholder return types (auto or Concept) Note that this isn't the typical use of auto (i.e. inferring the type from the right hand side of an assignment), but about return type deduction. From a quick read, it looks like there are multiple, equally valid kind of coroutines (e.g. lazy<int> vs generator<int>) which cannot be deduced from the body of the coroutine. It could be argued that lazy<auto> should work, but I would guess it clashes with all the already existing complexity of template deduction. I agree that this looks like a wart but not a horrible one. I'm not sure about the concept part, would have to learn more about concepts to comment. > Constexpr functions, constructors, destructors, and the main function cannot be coroutines. > Constexpr functions Constexpr functions are functions whose value can be decided at compile time. Coroutines can call constexpr functions, they just can't be one. I guess it could be useful to determine the full output sequence of a coroutine at compile time. Maybe it could be added in a future language version, if it's worth the added complexity. > constructors, destructors, and the main function cannot be coroutines I guess this is just formalism, having those things as coroutines doesn't make logical sense. 0: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/coroutines https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/coroutines
  - gigatexal 7y ago
    Thanks for the itemized reply. Your points make sense
- ncmncm 7y ago
  C++ is getting more fun to use, every cycle. C++11 was a huge step up with lambdas, move semantics, atomics, threads, constexpr functions, loops over containers, and loads more. C++14 added generic lambdas and lifted lots of arbitrary restrictions, making everything smoother. C++17 added destructuring, template argument deduction from constructor arguments, and constexpr if. C++20 brings concepts, ranges, modules, coroutines, and automatic comparison opetators. Each time, more kinds of programming are made natural and easy to write, and more old workarounds become unnecessary. We hardly ever need to write out constructors, copy assignments, or destructors anymore; or even, with '20, comparison operators. Template metaprogramming is mostly unneeded now.

This is pretty big news. That is the biggest c++2a feature I want to use.

by g82918 7y ago

This is pretty big news. That is the biggest c++2a feature I want to use.

beyondCritics 7y ago

Me too. It's a lot of fun coming.

g82918 7y ago
I am working on a red-green threading on Linux, what interests you?

gigatexal 7y ago

But no concepts, no const expr, or use of auto at least according to cppreference

LessDmesg 7y ago
It's no wonder. C++ is deeply and irreparably broken, yet instead of fixing anything they just pile up more features in an effort to compete with Rust and Go. Modern C++ is like a 19th century horse carriage with a big subwoofer (but you have to bring a bunch of 9V batteries), huge hot-rod wheels (but no amortization so don't even think about going above 20 kmh) and an airplane engine from Rolls-Royce (which is there for the sake of heating only).
- imron 7y ago
  > yet instead of fixing anything they just pile up more features in an effort to compete with Rust and Go I used to be a C++ diehard, but modern C++ is why I started learning Rust. If I'm going to have to learn a whole bunch of new idioms and rules, I might as well do it with a language that has the new features and safety built-in, rather than bolted on.
  - rumanator 7y ago
    > I used to be a C++ diehard, but modern C++ is why I started learning Rust. If I'm going to have to learn a whole bunch of new idioms and rules You don't. Just because you bump a version number it doesn't mean you are forced to use all the bells and whistles.
    - Rizz 7y ago
      That stops working once you're no longer a solo developer, but part of a team, then you need to learn everything any of your fellow developers might use. You might as well focus on learning a new language and having access to new jobs where you don't have to deal with legacy languages.
      - rumanator 7y ago
        > That stops working once you're no longer a solo developer It doesn't. If you have any experience working on C++ projects you will be very aware that deciding which feature is and is not used is the kind of stuff which is defined in the project's coding guidelines docs, along with naming conventions and choice of build system. With C++ you only have to use a feature introduced after C++11 if you decide you really want to use it. Some projects even in this very day still don't use smart pointers or exceptionsor std::array. Some people still do the old C with classes thing. Moreover, the world does not come to an end if you arrive at a project and need to learn a feature provided by a programming language.
        cowsandmilk 7y ago
        > If you have any experience working on C++ projects you will be very aware that deciding which feature is and is not used is the kind of stuff which is defined in the project's coding guidelines And you will find that you have to learn these features once they are allowed in the guidelines. Some workplaces stick to the old features. Some regularly update with pushes toward use of modern features. When your coding guidelines prefer modern C++, you have to learn it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dgellow 7y ago
  > in an effort to compete with Rust and Go I think that you overestimate how much Go and Rust are used in the wild, and how much of a threat they are to the C++ ecosystem. IMHO C++ is mainly competing with its own past.
  - throwaway17_17 7y ago
    I genuinely believe statements like GP’s are a result of living in a cutting-edge tech bubble, not necessarily SV, but online hype and discussion based reality. Sure several large impactful projects use Go and a few companies are dabbling in using Rust. However, the number of these usages is dwarfed into near statistical irrelevance by the amount of C++ code in active production and usage (it is even more irrelevant if you count programs written in C). That is not to say there is nothing good or beneficial about these languages, devs using them are free to evaluate the features provided and find that they suit their use case and go get to work. But some dev’s pet language, no matter how loudly they scream on Reddit and HN, is not yet threatening C++.
    - Darvon 7y ago
      I can't imagine a real world robotic assembly line in 2020 not using c/c++ indefinitely. Doesn't matter how cool the new language is, what people really want is to not have to rewrite that dependency they're still using from 1998.
- simias 7y ago
  You can't fix C++ because the only thing there is to fix is to get rid of all the legacy baggage but doing that would break backwards compatibility (including probably compatibility with C) which means that it's not C++ anymore. "Fixed" C++, per your description, already exists. It's called D. It's called Rust. It's called C#. It's called Go. Meanwhile there appear to be many people who (I must admit much to my puzzlement) seem to still enjoy writing C++ and want to add even more features and paradigms to it. I wish them good luck and I'll be sure to look at the results from afar and see if I can recognize some bits of the C++ I used to write 15 years ago. Oh! I think I saw an "if"!
  - blub 7y ago
    "It's called D. It's called Rust. It's called C#. It's called Go" All of these languages with the exception of D are completely different. It's like saying you fixed a cupboard by replacing it with a sofa. D's the most similar, but it's sadly not exactly a hot language or one where there's jobs available.
    - bluejekyll 7y ago
      Was the cupboard being used as a sofa?
  - The_rationalist 7y ago
    * rid of all the legacy baggage * It keeps being repeated over and over but where can I find such a list? There's almost no misfeature in c++. It's issues are just the fact it's too low level / manual.
    - 72deluxe 7y ago
      How is it too manual compared to eg C# where I need to implement IDisposable and wrap use of variables in "using" to really ensure something is cleaned up when I want it cleaned up (without risky memory ballooning relying on the GC)? C++ destructors to clean up your resources are really neat. And deterministic - you know when stuff is going to get cleaned up. Or was it some other "manual" feature that's too much of a burden? Honestly curious.
- 72deluxe 7y ago
  In what way is C++ "deeply" broken? I seem to be using it daily with no problem, as does the rest of the world. I manage to use applications and operating systems where vast portions of it are written in C++ without problems - what problems are you having? Honestly, it's dead easy to criticise but you must be using the product of another language if you feel so strongly about this...? Tell me, which browser and operating system are you using to write this comment? It must be one written in something other than C++, right? Your browser isn't using WebKit or Blink by any chance is it?? Let's hope the web server or network appliances used to transfer the data to you are not using software written using this "deeply broken" language!
  - jefftk 7y ago
    I mostly agree with you, but operating systems and web servers are generally written in C and not C++. For example Linux, (the vast majority of) GNU, Apache, and Nginx are all C. (Though I expect your parent has similarly negative views on C?)
    - 72deluxe 7y ago
      You are correct, thanks. My comment comes across as very irritated, but it's the same argument that will continue to the end of time I guess - "this tried, tested and widely used language is broken because it is not language $x and because it lacks this edge-case invented usage scenario even though it works adequately for 99.9% of all other scenarios as demonstrated by decades of use". It's wearying. Sure, C++ is complicated but so is English! I thought nginx was C++? I also thought large portions of Windows are C++? Everybody loves COM!
      - jefftk 7y ago
        Nginx is C, and the authors really don't like C++. (I used to work on ngx_pagespeed, which was a C++ server module that plugged into Nginx to rewrite pages so they would load faster.)
        72deluxe 7y ago
- bouncycastle 7y ago
  > an airplane engine from Rolls-Royce RR makes excellent aircraft engines, for both Boeing and Airbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Trent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Trent
  - gerikson 7y ago
    In addition, Rolls-Royce cars are made by BMW now, who also make quite good engines.
    - bouncycastle 7y ago
      Correct. RR doesn't make cars anymore, it's only just a badge. Also, RR is dominating the marine propulsion sector, these engines are some of the largest in the world!
      - gerikson 7y ago
        This I did not know, interesting!
- endorphone 7y ago
  "yet instead of fixing anything they just pile up more features in an effort to compete with Rust and Go" Alternately they're iteratively evolving the language as each generation of features are fleshed out? They've been doing this for several decades now. It's their job. And for those people using C++ tooling, or working on C++ projects: Cool, new stuff to ease some edge conditions.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  As much as I like Rust, progress usually comes in progressive changes, not with big bangs. Modern C++ is already a large improvement over C, which was already a 19th century carriage, when everyone was moving into steam cars.
  - tsimionescu 7y ago
    Unfortunately, modern C++ still includes (the vast majority of) C, both in theory and in practice in many code bases around the world.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Indeed, and it is its Achilles tendon, once its Trojan horse for adoption, nowadays the source of security headaches. However, I don't see many companies throwing away their IDEs, game engines, build systems just like that. It is easier to migrate those teams to static analysis tooling, than throwing it all away and start from scratch in another ecosystem. Hence why both Microsoft and Google are still two major contributors to ISO C++, in spite of being in the process of adopting Rust.
      - stjohnswarts 7y ago
        Can you point out where Google and Microsoft are moving to Rust because I've seen none of that.
        steveklabnik 7y ago
        “Moving to rust” is too strong; they are both adopting Rust for real, production use cases. I’ll give you one example of each: Google is using Rust in ChromeOS, at the virtualization later, and Microsoft is using ripgrep to power the search for VS: Code. There’s more than just that but those are the two easiest things to point to.
jcelerier 7y ago
> https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html https://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx-status.html seems more up to date than cppreference
- gigatexal 7y ago
  No I meant that from cppreference using coroutines means you can’t use the features I mentioned not that those features don’t exist in c++20
nemetroid 7y ago
The concepts part I'm not sure about, but the other parts don't look so bad. According to cppreference.com[0]: > Coroutines cannot use variadic arguments, plain return statements, or placeholder return types (auto or Concept). > variadic arguments For the purposes of creating variadic functions, variadic templates are the preferred solution, since variadic arguments have a number of drawbacks (e.g. unavoidable type promotions). > plain return statements This is the definition of C++ coroutines, more or less. > placeholder return types (auto or Concept) Note that this isn't the typical use of auto (i.e. inferring the type from the right hand side of an assignment), but about return type deduction. From a quick read, it looks like there are multiple, equally valid kind of coroutines (e.g. lazy<int> vs generator<int>) which cannot be deduced from the body of the coroutine. It could be argued that lazy<auto> should work, but I would guess it clashes with all the already existing complexity of template deduction. I agree that this looks like a wart but not a horrible one. I'm not sure about the concept part, would have to learn more about concepts to comment. > Constexpr functions, constructors, destructors, and the main function cannot be coroutines. > Constexpr functions Constexpr functions are functions whose value can be decided at compile time. Coroutines can call constexpr functions, they just can't be one. I guess it could be useful to determine the full output sequence of a coroutine at compile time. Maybe it could be added in a future language version, if it's worth the added complexity. > constructors, destructors, and the main function cannot be coroutines I guess this is just formalism, having those things as coroutines doesn't make logical sense. 0: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/coroutines https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/coroutines
- gigatexal 7y ago
  Thanks for the itemized reply. Your points make sense
ncmncm 7y ago
C++ is getting more fun to use, every cycle. C++11 was a huge step up with lambdas, move semantics, atomics, threads, constexpr functions, loops over containers, and loads more. C++14 added generic lambdas and lifted lots of arbitrary restrictions, making everything smoother. C++17 added destructuring, template argument deduction from constructor arguments, and constexpr if. C++20 brings concepts, ranges, modules, coroutines, and automatic comparison opetators. Each time, more kinds of programming are made natural and easy to write, and more old workarounds become unnecessary. We hardly ever need to write out constructors, copy assignments, or destructors anymore; or even, with '20, comparison operators. Template metaprogramming is mostly unneeded now.