12 ms·

With no salary cuts would be amazing. So long as the policy is transparent for new hires in the new market, you would only need to grandfather people those that

With no salary cuts would be amazing. So long as the policy is transparent for new hires in the new market, you would only need to grandfather people those that make the move. There are tons of places I’d move to easily if I could keep my current SF salary.

WalterBright 7y ago
Since your salary would go much further outside of SF, why would it be necessary to keep the same salary?
- tomnipotent 7y ago
  Does Google make the same profit regardless? Yup, I think it's necessary.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    What does Google's profit have to do with your salary needs?
    - unlinked_dll 7y ago
      As Publilius Syrus put it, "everything is worth what it's purchaser will pay." Why should google be willing to pay less for continued labor after relocating if profits are unaffected? And if they're not, why would anyone keep working there?
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        If your money goes 2x further after the move, then you might be much better off even with a salary reduction. This means a move could be a win for both google and the employee. Also, pegging your salary to corporate profits has its downsides. At Boeing, a good chunk of the worker bees negotiated their bonuses to be pegged to the quarterly profits. They were pretty unhappy about this when the 737MAX problems tanked profits, and the bonuses vanished.
        unlinked_dll 7y ago
        I think profit sharing is totally awesome in all forms and losing bonuses when your business kills people is more than reasonable. But anyway to me the math isn't about win/win but just supply and demand. If they can afford to pay it and were willing to before, it's not like you can't make the same amount (if not more) and have better future prospects without the stress and cost of moving. I think a more realistic take would be a more decentralized approach to labor in general and allow many smaller satellites to pop up (which they already have) in many places and allow their people to move freely with minor salary adjustments. That way the costs and benefits even out in the long run, mass relocation to a single location probably isn't great for anyone involved long term.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        Supply & demand is exactly about win/win. People don't wittingly make deals where they are worse off than if they decline the deal.
        Zenbit_UX 7y ago
        > They were pretty unhappy about this when the 737MAX problems tanked profits, and the bonuses vanished. I have no doubt, likely more unhappy at lost bonuses than the fact they contributed directly to many lives being lost.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
        He neglected to include the selling side. "Everything is worth what it's seller will sell it for." And that in turn is often going to be dictated by what other offers are on the market for the same good. This is a big problem for sellers of software labor in Kansas City. The problem for the hypothetical KC Googler is that there are substantially no other high paying tech jobs in KC. There's Cerner, but they pay seniors ~1/3rd what Google pays (and it seems to get further from Google comp as you go up the ladder). So if you want to negotiate with Google to increase your pay, you have no credible best alternative to a negotiated agreement (BATNA). If you want to work for any other high paying tech company, you have to leave town. Google, knowing they are the best game in town, would face less upward pressure on wages. I mean, as a matter of simple fact, Google does not pay the same in different metros. Nor do any other large companies I'm aware of. The pay is adjusted to what is required to attract talent in those metros.
        jefftk 7y ago
        This is right: they and the rest of the FAANGs pay based on the local market. On the other hand this means areas with lower costs of living but strong tech job markets can be a very good deal: Pittsburg is one people often bring up. Boston isn't as cheap as Pittsburg, but it's far cheaper than the Bay Area with pay that's nearly as high. I'm very happy here.
    - ShamelessC 7y ago
      Yeah I don't see the connection there either. I think an equivalent salary adjusted for cost of living with maybe an extra 10% to show good faith would be plenty. People with the 150k-300k salaries FAANG provides would be making a surgeon's salary in Kansas City.
    - akerl_ 7y ago
      I feel like this thread is made of the kind of hard-line stances that lower the overall quality of HN. Both sides present a rhetorical question designed to paint the other side’s position as nonsensical, without engaging in any actual discussion. Google’s profit clearly has to do with salary because salary is a negotiation between employees and employers, and “my work allows you to make $x more dollars than if I hadn’t done the work” is a basic tenet of salary negotiation. But this is a negotiation. If Google moved to a lower cost-of-living location, they’d be making themselves available as an employer to new employees, for whom their current locations are undesirable. So if there are other potential employees who are willing to do the work for less salary, Google has the option to hire them instead.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        > But this is a negotiation. Sure. But negotiating for a piece of the action comes in the form of deciding on stock options and grants. Salaries don't go up and down with profits.
        reillyse 7y ago
        Salaries do go down with profits, a long enough run of low profits and salaries go to zero.
        asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
        > Salaries don't go up and down with profits. It objectively the case that salaries vary with profits. Are you just saying you think they ought not? If the company is losing money, you can bet raises will be harder to come by. When Facebook was poaching a lot of Googlers in the late aughts and early teens, base salaries went up a bunch to make the job more competitive. But if Google hadn't been profitable there would have been no headroom to make that change. Those are two (of many) ways that salaries vary with profits.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        > It objectively the case that salaries vary with profits. Salaries are a function of the perceived value of the particular employee to the company. If the salary is too low, he'll be poached by another company. If it's too high, he's likely to be laid off or otherwise pushed out. For example, if an employee contributes $100 in value to the company, his ideal compensation would be $100 minus the opportunity cost of the money, which is about $15. This has nothing to do with the profit of the company as a whole. It is true that companies often have a lot of difficulty computing what the actual dollar value of a particular employee is, but there is no doubt that the company will do badly if it gets it too far wrong too many times. Companies falling on hard times that try to cut salaries across the board (or limit raises, same thing) do so at great peril - the underpaid (relative to their contribution) employees leave and the overpaid stay. I.e. this can result in a vicious death spiral. A much harder, but far more effective strategy is to identify the overpaid ones and get rid of them.
    - scarejunba 7y ago
      Neither the salary needs nor the profit margins really influence Google salaries. Employees are paid salaries based on the margin at the market.
    - claudeganon 7y ago
      This should explain it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
    - tomnipotent 7y ago
      Why does where I love have to do with my salary? Google makes the same profit off me regardless, so I want my share.
- imtringued 7y ago
  Because companies will reduce the salary until the net benefit is 0. You still want a small nudge/incentive to encourage people to move.
hellisothers 7y ago
In discussing this with others I’ve found the same sentiment about moving if they can keep the same salary. But then I ask do they expect the inevitable next job after the current one to also offer the same salary? Unlikely. There are tons of great reasons to leave CA for jobs elsewhere, money shouldn’t be the reason.

WalterBright 7y ago

Since your salary would go much further outside of SF, why would it be necessary to keep the same salary?

tomnipotent 7y ago
Does Google make the same profit regardless? Yup, I think it's necessary.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  What does Google's profit have to do with your salary needs?
  - unlinked_dll 7y ago
    As Publilius Syrus put it, "everything is worth what it's purchaser will pay." Why should google be willing to pay less for continued labor after relocating if profits are unaffected? And if they're not, why would anyone keep working there?
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      If your money goes 2x further after the move, then you might be much better off even with a salary reduction. This means a move could be a win for both google and the employee. Also, pegging your salary to corporate profits has its downsides. At Boeing, a good chunk of the worker bees negotiated their bonuses to be pegged to the quarterly profits. They were pretty unhappy about this when the 737MAX problems tanked profits, and the bonuses vanished.
      - unlinked_dll 7y ago
        I think profit sharing is totally awesome in all forms and losing bonuses when your business kills people is more than reasonable. But anyway to me the math isn't about win/win but just supply and demand. If they can afford to pay it and were willing to before, it's not like you can't make the same amount (if not more) and have better future prospects without the stress and cost of moving. I think a more realistic take would be a more decentralized approach to labor in general and allow many smaller satellites to pop up (which they already have) in many places and allow their people to move freely with minor salary adjustments. That way the costs and benefits even out in the long run, mass relocation to a single location probably isn't great for anyone involved long term.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        Supply & demand is exactly about win/win. People don't wittingly make deals where they are worse off than if they decline the deal.
      - Zenbit_UX 7y ago
        > They were pretty unhappy about this when the 737MAX problems tanked profits, and the bonuses vanished. I have no doubt, likely more unhappy at lost bonuses than the fact they contributed directly to many lives being lost.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
      He neglected to include the selling side. "Everything is worth what it's seller will sell it for." And that in turn is often going to be dictated by what other offers are on the market for the same good. This is a big problem for sellers of software labor in Kansas City. The problem for the hypothetical KC Googler is that there are substantially no other high paying tech jobs in KC. There's Cerner, but they pay seniors ~1/3rd what Google pays (and it seems to get further from Google comp as you go up the ladder). So if you want to negotiate with Google to increase your pay, you have no credible best alternative to a negotiated agreement (BATNA). If you want to work for any other high paying tech company, you have to leave town. Google, knowing they are the best game in town, would face less upward pressure on wages. I mean, as a matter of simple fact, Google does not pay the same in different metros. Nor do any other large companies I'm aware of. The pay is adjusted to what is required to attract talent in those metros.
      - jefftk 7y ago
        This is right: they and the rest of the FAANGs pay based on the local market. On the other hand this means areas with lower costs of living but strong tech job markets can be a very good deal: Pittsburg is one people often bring up. Boston isn't as cheap as Pittsburg, but it's far cheaper than the Bay Area with pay that's nearly as high. I'm very happy here.
  - ShamelessC 7y ago
    Yeah I don't see the connection there either. I think an equivalent salary adjusted for cost of living with maybe an extra 10% to show good faith would be plenty. People with the 150k-300k salaries FAANG provides would be making a surgeon's salary in Kansas City.
  - akerl_ 7y ago
    I feel like this thread is made of the kind of hard-line stances that lower the overall quality of HN. Both sides present a rhetorical question designed to paint the other side’s position as nonsensical, without engaging in any actual discussion. Google’s profit clearly has to do with salary because salary is a negotiation between employees and employers, and “my work allows you to make $x more dollars than if I hadn’t done the work” is a basic tenet of salary negotiation. But this is a negotiation. If Google moved to a lower cost-of-living location, they’d be making themselves available as an employer to new employees, for whom their current locations are undesirable. So if there are other potential employees who are willing to do the work for less salary, Google has the option to hire them instead.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      > But this is a negotiation. Sure. But negotiating for a piece of the action comes in the form of deciding on stock options and grants. Salaries don't go up and down with profits.
      - reillyse 7y ago
        Salaries do go down with profits, a long enough run of low profits and salaries go to zero.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
        > Salaries don't go up and down with profits. It objectively the case that salaries vary with profits. Are you just saying you think they ought not? If the company is losing money, you can bet raises will be harder to come by. When Facebook was poaching a lot of Googlers in the late aughts and early teens, base salaries went up a bunch to make the job more competitive. But if Google hadn't been profitable there would have been no headroom to make that change. Those are two (of many) ways that salaries vary with profits.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        > It objectively the case that salaries vary with profits. Salaries are a function of the perceived value of the particular employee to the company. If the salary is too low, he'll be poached by another company. If it's too high, he's likely to be laid off or otherwise pushed out. For example, if an employee contributes $100 in value to the company, his ideal compensation would be $100 minus the opportunity cost of the money, which is about $15. This has nothing to do with the profit of the company as a whole. It is true that companies often have a lot of difficulty computing what the actual dollar value of a particular employee is, but there is no doubt that the company will do badly if it gets it too far wrong too many times. Companies falling on hard times that try to cut salaries across the board (or limit raises, same thing) do so at great peril - the underpaid (relative to their contribution) employees leave and the overpaid stay. I.e. this can result in a vicious death spiral. A much harder, but far more effective strategy is to identify the overpaid ones and get rid of them.
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Neither the salary needs nor the profit margins really influence Google salaries. Employees are paid salaries based on the margin at the market.
  - claudeganon 7y ago
    This should explain it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
  - tomnipotent 7y ago
    Why does where I love have to do with my salary? Google makes the same profit off me regardless, so I want my share.
imtringued 7y ago
Because companies will reduce the salary until the net benefit is 0. You still want a small nudge/incentive to encourage people to move.

hellisothers 7y ago

In discussing this with others I’ve found the same sentiment about moving if they can keep the same salary. But then I ask do they expect the inevitable next job after the current one to also offer the same salary? Unlikely. There are tons of great reasons to leave CA for jobs elsewhere, money shouldn’t be the reason.